C100: Can the C100 burn in Date and Time stamp for a legal deposition?
- Thread starter nedcam
- Start date
control4userguy
Well-known member
Nope. I used to do PI work for the medical field involving work-comp cases. Used to very old camcorder that would superimpose TD info. Still have three of them here. So old the foam around the mics has left this world. Nowadays, it's called metadata.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Some ideas in this topic on the same subject, but for the AF100.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?313114-AF100-for-Legal-work-getting-a-timestamp-burn-in
One idea is to have the OSD (On screen display) recorded to an external recorder. You have to go into the custom display in the menu system and turn off all the other OSDs that you don't want in the final recorded image. You turn on time and date, of course.
If you don't already own an external recorder, for the price of an external recorder, you could buy some cheap ancient camera that is probably actually better suited for the job. Don't legal videos still want mini DV tapes?
HMC40 has burned in time and date for around $500-$600 used.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...932511?hash=item43f1a5049f:g:vfQAAOSwyKxXhQJD
Panasonic AG-DVC30 has burned in time and date for $200 and has mini DV.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-3...522453?hash=item41aecca915:g:6eYAAOSwj2dXjWKs
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?313114-AF100-for-Legal-work-getting-a-timestamp-burn-in
One idea is to have the OSD (On screen display) recorded to an external recorder. You have to go into the custom display in the menu system and turn off all the other OSDs that you don't want in the final recorded image. You turn on time and date, of course.
If you don't already own an external recorder, for the price of an external recorder, you could buy some cheap ancient camera that is probably actually better suited for the job. Don't legal videos still want mini DV tapes?
HMC40 has burned in time and date for around $500-$600 used.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...932511?hash=item43f1a5049f:g:vfQAAOSwyKxXhQJD
Panasonic AG-DVC30 has burned in time and date for $200 and has mini DV.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-3...522453?hash=item41aecca915:g:6eYAAOSwj2dXjWKs
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control4userguy
Well-known member
My clients (insurance companies) demanded DVDs.
tobyhoffman
Active member
I would go the external recorder option if you had one for ease, but you can buy devices that hold time code and output them to an audio track via the XLR input. Not sure what the device is called but they used it on this show I shot last week so they could extract it in post. Just an idea.
control4userguy
Well-known member
I'm failing to see how this is "legally" viable over metadata.
Just wonderin' is all. If the actual date and time was physically displayed in the shot for all parties present to see, there could be no denying its accuracy. Metadata, as well as adding a display in post, can be set to say anything after the fact.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
I thought of that too. But how are you going to focus on the clock right in front of the camera, when you have to focus on the subjects a much further distance away?
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Yeah, like right below the criminal's face. Hopefully they don't tamper with time otherwise they'll also be charged with time crimes.
control4userguy
Well-known member
This is slightly ridiculous. The time/date on the clock can be altered to whatever suits the situation. Same can be said for my old camcorders I used for medical exams. You need to get the allowed criteria for recording from your client and sign some sort fulfillment affidavit to that affect. It may be simple, it may not. Nobody here can say what is permissible in every case though...
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Ned, you weren't a Good Wife fan? On the show, they always used a Sony consumer HD camcorder to record depositions. Perhaps you are using too good of a camera? Sure, it's fictional but I know that the show's production design and prop teams were proud of their research and accuracy based upon real life.
nedcam
Well-known member
Thanks guys. I did get a response today from Canon service that the C100 does not have that feature. There is a legal issue involved that the stamp has to be burned in at the time of the testimony. I have read of some tech disasters where the videographer did reconstitute a date & time stamp later through using the meta data in post, but that is not wise if caught. I'm still learning and am getting certified ($1080) on August 7th.
I am reticent about buying a used camera for this since stopping a dep for tech issues is the kiss of death, although I have discovered that many guys who do this as their main living keep a spare in their car, which is a very bad idea in Chicago. Imagine trying to get paid by attorneys who are pissed at you?
The camera du jour for this is the Panasonic 160A which goes for $3400 new after the rebate, it's discontinued. The biz doesn't use DV tape anymore, they burn to two DVDs, one's for archival, and simultaneous dual recording on two SD cards and a digital backup copy is made in case the law firm loses the DVD. That's why you can't just burn to an external recorder unless both it, the output for the DVD and the internal cards all get the same burn in. They want 4x3 which makes sense because your shot 99% of the time is elbows on the table to a couple of inches of headroom so why have 16x9 dead space?
The main purpose for having the date and time burned in is for syncing the video to the transcript that the court reporter is creating, there's never a video without the "real" record, which is the CR's transcript. And that's why they don't want HD: The video is embedded into courtroom presentation software so it syncs with the transcripts, so the video is in a 4x3 box. My theory is that is why they don't care about image quality, however, they do very much want to avoid an incompetent shooter, thus the certification.
You can't have a clock in the shot, every now and then you may need to do a move, such as when an exhibit like an x-ray is held.
But I do appreciate everyone chiming in because I would have hated buying a new camera and then find out that deep in the manual I missed the C100's stamp feature! I am "toying" with the idea of putting that money into a Sony FS5 (If I was ten years younger I'd get the FS7) which could be used for other gigs rather than $3400 in a "dep only" camera. In fact, deps don't pay well and are notorious for last minute cancellations and good luck getting a cancellation fee from an attorney. The reason I'm doing this is so I can keep (and get new) business from the large law firms who hire me on jobs you can't believe how simple and profitable they are. Easy money. Once was flown to Germany to do a factory tour on a patent infringement case. I watched the attorney snoring at $800 a hour, in first class! It's the only niche in our vid biz left that doesn't care what I charge because they pass it onto the client, except the deps are cheap.
Plus, when I'm in a walker I could do deps, right? Hardest thing is staying awake and potting audio channels when someone pipes up who was silent for the last few hours.
Parting thought: If I do go modern such as the FS5 then I will have to take all that media into post, and the federal rules for a dep is they can go for 7 hours of "on record" (talking time), and then do a center cut 4x3 and export to two DVDs, but this would be on my own time where I'm not getting paid extra, so why bother? Thus there is an incentive in buying a Panasonic 160A that will shoot in 4x3 SD.
P.S. PUREDRIFTING: I thought of you today. Thanks for turning me onto the Osmo! The first few weeks I cursed you and now I am quite good at it! Today I shot for a private equity firm client a restaurant opening, which is a major event for this local chain now going nationwide, packed interior crowds and I cruised with the Osmo. People had never seen one and had a quizzical look on their faces, so in big black letters on my left palm I wrote with a Sharpie: SMILE! The crowd was so packed you couldn't have worked with a Ronin or such. Thanks!
I am reticent about buying a used camera for this since stopping a dep for tech issues is the kiss of death, although I have discovered that many guys who do this as their main living keep a spare in their car, which is a very bad idea in Chicago. Imagine trying to get paid by attorneys who are pissed at you?
The camera du jour for this is the Panasonic 160A which goes for $3400 new after the rebate, it's discontinued. The biz doesn't use DV tape anymore, they burn to two DVDs, one's for archival, and simultaneous dual recording on two SD cards and a digital backup copy is made in case the law firm loses the DVD. That's why you can't just burn to an external recorder unless both it, the output for the DVD and the internal cards all get the same burn in. They want 4x3 which makes sense because your shot 99% of the time is elbows on the table to a couple of inches of headroom so why have 16x9 dead space?
The main purpose for having the date and time burned in is for syncing the video to the transcript that the court reporter is creating, there's never a video without the "real" record, which is the CR's transcript. And that's why they don't want HD: The video is embedded into courtroom presentation software so it syncs with the transcripts, so the video is in a 4x3 box. My theory is that is why they don't care about image quality, however, they do very much want to avoid an incompetent shooter, thus the certification.
You can't have a clock in the shot, every now and then you may need to do a move, such as when an exhibit like an x-ray is held.
But I do appreciate everyone chiming in because I would have hated buying a new camera and then find out that deep in the manual I missed the C100's stamp feature! I am "toying" with the idea of putting that money into a Sony FS5 (If I was ten years younger I'd get the FS7) which could be used for other gigs rather than $3400 in a "dep only" camera. In fact, deps don't pay well and are notorious for last minute cancellations and good luck getting a cancellation fee from an attorney. The reason I'm doing this is so I can keep (and get new) business from the large law firms who hire me on jobs you can't believe how simple and profitable they are. Easy money. Once was flown to Germany to do a factory tour on a patent infringement case. I watched the attorney snoring at $800 a hour, in first class! It's the only niche in our vid biz left that doesn't care what I charge because they pass it onto the client, except the deps are cheap.
Plus, when I'm in a walker I could do deps, right? Hardest thing is staying awake and potting audio channels when someone pipes up who was silent for the last few hours.
Parting thought: If I do go modern such as the FS5 then I will have to take all that media into post, and the federal rules for a dep is they can go for 7 hours of "on record" (talking time), and then do a center cut 4x3 and export to two DVDs, but this would be on my own time where I'm not getting paid extra, so why bother? Thus there is an incentive in buying a Panasonic 160A that will shoot in 4x3 SD.
P.S. PUREDRIFTING: I thought of you today. Thanks for turning me onto the Osmo! The first few weeks I cursed you and now I am quite good at it! Today I shot for a private equity firm client a restaurant opening, which is a major event for this local chain now going nationwide, packed interior crowds and I cruised with the Osmo. People had never seen one and had a quizzical look on their faces, so in big black letters on my left palm I wrote with a Sharpie: SMILE! The crowd was so packed you couldn't have worked with a Ronin or such. Thanks!
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Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Why keep a spare camera in the car? Your camera goes down in the middle of the dep (a shoot), and then everyone waits 5-10 minutes for you to run to your car and back. I typically keep a spare camera in my camera bag, which is of course with me on the shoot. Camera goes down, you're up and running again in a minute or less.
I suppose if your spare camera is an HPX300, though, you don't want to carry that hunk around as a spare.
Matt Turner
Well-known member
Just throwing this out there but the AV Output terminal on the front of the camera is SD 4:3 and can overlay the onscreen displays on it (as mentioned before you could turn all off except the date/time).
If you take this directly into a (dual?) DVD recorder (?), or a laptop with video dongle and DVD recorder then it might do what you want.
Might.
Edit: Thinking more... this way you are only recording from the AV Output as one source and never use the internal C100 SD cards. Get something that takes the AV input (Blackmagic H264 doohickey?) and record the SD 4:3 files on your laptop and burn to x2 DVD on the laptop - all delivered in glorious standard def on location. Reasonably small setup in that you only need C100, cable, dongle, laptop and DVD burner if it's not built in. They can also verify the date/time stamp on a feed to a TV, it's low tech enough that it probably would not bamboozle them like a monitor/recorder would.
If you take this directly into a (dual?) DVD recorder (?), or a laptop with video dongle and DVD recorder then it might do what you want.
Might.
Edit: Thinking more... this way you are only recording from the AV Output as one source and never use the internal C100 SD cards. Get something that takes the AV input (Blackmagic H264 doohickey?) and record the SD 4:3 files on your laptop and burn to x2 DVD on the laptop - all delivered in glorious standard def on location. Reasonably small setup in that you only need C100, cable, dongle, laptop and DVD burner if it's not built in. They can also verify the date/time stamp on a feed to a TV, it's low tech enough that it probably would not bamboozle them like a monitor/recorder would.
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The key is to preserve the original time/date stamp. If that is in the camera file time code metadata in a form that is readable by your NLE, then it can be burned into the DVD converted deliverable. Lightworks does this. But most file based compression codecs don't record the real time date and clock stamp.
Other possibilities: record the camera monitor output with onscreen data to an external recorder or use a digital clock on the table in the shot.
Other possibilities: record the camera monitor output with onscreen data to an external recorder or use a digital clock on the table in the shot.
nedcam
Well-known member
Hey Eric: It would have to be a very small 2nd camera if I would shlep it in. The problem with the fancy downtown office buildings in Chicago is, if security sees you have "too much stuff" they block you and tell you to go to the loading dock, so I want this all to fit on a two wheel cart plus a backpack and some shoulder bag.
Matt: My brain is too small to understand your suggested solution! Remember, I am merely a cameraman.
Razz: I'm in IL and will find out definitely when I take the class but of the states that demand the stamp most require it to be burned in at the time of recording, not added afterward in post. Lots of arcane rules as the legal profession in known for.
Meanwhile, my plan is to not spend any money besides the class and then market this additional service. If I don't get good nibbles I'll cut my losses.
Thanks!
Matt: My brain is too small to understand your suggested solution! Remember, I am merely a cameraman.
Razz: I'm in IL and will find out definitely when I take the class but of the states that demand the stamp most require it to be burned in at the time of recording, not added afterward in post. Lots of arcane rules as the legal profession in known for.
Meanwhile, my plan is to not spend any money besides the class and then market this additional service. If I don't get good nibbles I'll cut my losses.
Thanks!
control4userguy
Well-known member
Nedcam, this doesn't have to be a royal production as long as your client understands what metadata is and how it is utilized for your (their) work. When I was doing this gig, I used a Canon with onscreen DT. But, since your cam is now a modern work of art, metadata is all you have as a tool currently. I don't know what NLE you use for artistic work but you could invest in Sony Vegas, for example, and use SVDTS tool on your clips. Been awhile since I did this but it works by extracting the metadata TD and placing a text of it on each clip. The tool is free.
For a generic application (no NLE needed) use vMTS. I use this for mp4s but there is a version for AVCHD. There is a small fee for each app but this is about as simple as it gets. You pull your clip into this app and output is duplicate file with date/time stamp overlay. I had my 10 yr. old. do a few of these so anyone can do it.
For a generic application (no NLE needed) use vMTS. I use this for mp4s but there is a version for AVCHD. There is a small fee for each app but this is about as simple as it gets. You pull your clip into this app and output is duplicate file with date/time stamp overlay. I had my 10 yr. old. do a few of these so anyone can do it.
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nedcam
Well-known member
Hi Controluserguy,
I was certified for doing legal videos 12 years ago by the AGCV (although I have never done a dep), the take away was don't do anything that could make your video inadmissible. My understanding is the rules change state-by-state. Many states require that the stamp be burned during the recording, I do not know the reason for this, I will find out during my NCRA classes in August. So all these suggestion about doing it later in post by extracting the metadata, which I believe you are suggesting, are moot, correct?
I understand that some states and attorneys don't want a stamp, but it is safer to show up with a camera that will do it with the change of a menu setting.
Besides, my goal is to be what they call a Catch & Release shooter, where all I have to do is FedEx the DVD to the client and then make one back up copy of the media file on an archival hard drive plus store the second DVD in my office. So in sum, I'm trying to minimize the post, especially the burning and labelling of DVDs.
Thanks
I was certified for doing legal videos 12 years ago by the AGCV (although I have never done a dep), the take away was don't do anything that could make your video inadmissible. My understanding is the rules change state-by-state. Many states require that the stamp be burned during the recording, I do not know the reason for this, I will find out during my NCRA classes in August. So all these suggestion about doing it later in post by extracting the metadata, which I believe you are suggesting, are moot, correct?
I understand that some states and attorneys don't want a stamp, but it is safer to show up with a camera that will do it with the change of a menu setting.
Besides, my goal is to be what they call a Catch & Release shooter, where all I have to do is FedEx the DVD to the client and then make one back up copy of the media file on an archival hard drive plus store the second DVD in my office. So in sum, I'm trying to minimize the post, especially the burning and labelling of DVDs.
Thanks