Can 60p be considered 'film like'?

commanderspike

commanderspike

Carbonite Member
I am considering dumping my obsession with the full HD 24p mode on the GH1 because of codec issues.

What are people's opinions of 60p?

Does it have the film-like look of 24p with a slow shutter? Audience perception of this is quite important. Sometimes I only have one chance to shoot one shot and have to choose my mode :)

Yeah, I know the camera is (apparently) forced into 30p mode when a shutter lower than 1/60 is used in 720p mode, but for me I think it looks pretty film-like.

From all my experience so far, I think what makes the image film like is not the low frame rate of 24p, rather the motion blur of a 1/24 or 1/30 shutter speed and the progressive nature of the video stream. 60p is progressive. It's not like 60i (yuk).

Worth mentioning too that on anything smaller than a 50 inch screen you will not usually notice much difference in detail, unless you press your eyes against the screen to make out fine details on a wide shot with lots of tiny fine details in the distance.
 
Take it for what it's worth, but after 8 years of experience with the DVX and all those that came after it: 30p ain't 24p.

30p sure looks a lot more filmlike than 60i/60p, yes. But it doesn't look like 24p. It's unquestionably more "video", it's more of a hybrid film/video look.

rather the motion blur of a 1/24 or 1/30 shutter speed and the progressive nature of the video stream
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I think most would contest this statement too. 24p is normally not shot at 1/24 or 1/30, as people consider that too smeary or blurry. It's typically shot at at least 1/40, normally around 1/48, and sometimes up to 1/60th.

Try your GH1 on 1/24 and see what you think, if it looks as filmlike as 1/50th. If you like the look it delivers, then that's all that really matters. But as a strict emulation of the properties of motion picture film, you'll get a more exact match using 1/50th.

Look also into the prospect of shooting 720/60p and conforming it to 24p. That basic process has been done for decades on 60i footage that gets transferred to film; it's not perfect but it does work reasonably well.
 
Thanks Barry, that's sound advice as usual.

I would like to start shooting at 1/50 mostly, but I have a NTSC GH1. So in 60p, with a lower shutter speed than 1/60 it reverts to 30p, correct?

If you use 1/25 in 720p mode, I guess it just doubles frames to make 30p.

Does it definitely revert to 30p and drops frames if you have a 1/40 or 1/50 shutter in 720p 60p mode?

I'd like to get it as close to 24p motion as possible and it's not always desirable to shoot at 1/60 (like in low light situations).
 
Is it best to shoot 30p (or 60p with a 1/40 shutter) for a film like look in 720p on the GH1...

OR.. is it best to shoot at true 60p, 1/60 and conform to 24p in post?

Sorry. My head is spinning with the variations in frame rate & shutter speed.

Also I am yet to be convinced that true 60p footage cannot look film-like with the right shooting technique, eye, lens, etc. Sometimes the stuttering of panning in 24p takes me OUT of the film, whilst you can get used to 60p's move-as-smooth-as-eye-can-see kind of look.

I am wondering, is 24p just a meme or a part of our cultural experience of what 'film' is supposed to look like, rather than a genuine aesthetic advantage?
 
commanderspike said:
So in 60p, with a lower shutter speed than 1/60 it reverts to 30p, correct?
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Yep. For shutters that are 1/30 or faster.

If you use 1/25 in 720p mode, I guess it just doubles frames to make 30p.
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No, in that case it's going to go to 20p. You can't have a shutter speed slower than your frame rate. So down to 1/30, you can have 30p. If you go below 1/30, it goes to 20p. If you go below 1/20 it goes to 15p, etc.

Does it definitely revert to 30p and drops frames if you have a 1/40 or 1/50 shutter in 720p 60p mode?
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Yep.

I'd like to get it as close to 24p motion as possible and it's not always desirable to shoot at 1/60 (like in low light situations).
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If you're not going to shoot 1/30, and you're annoyed by mud, why not go straight to the MJPG 720/30p mode? Guaranteed "mud" free...
 
Barry_Green said:
If you're not going to shoot 1/30, and you're annoyed by mud, why not go straight to the MJPG 720/30p mode? Guaranteed "mud" free...
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I discovered that noise and banding in this mode is almost twice as much as what you get with the AVCHD modes... strange.

So looks like I'll stick to 24p, unless the scene is highly detailed and moving (like in the steadicam-around-the-tree scenes of my music video here http://www.vimeo.com/6525278) then I'll go to 720p with a 1/60 shutter.
 
Just shoot 1/60 and convert to 24p in post with an easy timeline drop for stuff that doesn't have lots of lateral movement and something like compressor for shots that do....been working great for me, and it's not much more of a hassle than removing 1080p pulldown...I am starting to work more with 1080p though in controlled enviornments..but most of the time I like the 720p 60...plus instant slow motion whenever you want (not as good as at 1/120 but still.)
 
Why not sell your current camera and buy a UK version? 25p timeline for editing, whether you're shooting 1080 or 720 and no dealing with pulldown. Shoot 1/50 or 1/100. The 1080 looks great in a lot of situations, search your feelings, feel don't think.
 
Because it gets out of sync with lights in this region and nobody here uses 50p or 25p? Also the record limit (or was that just non UK europe?)
 
Yeah I know I was wondering if the UK applied to that since they traditionally seem to do things differently than the rest of Europe.
 
It's a European Community law, and the UK's part of that. Sadly (perhaps) a lot of the UK traditions are disappearing the same way...
 
Ben I was directing my comment about getting a UK model to Commanderspike, it looks like he's in the UK with a 24/60p model. Yeah, the record limit is a Europe wide thing, no big deal for me but I guess it is for some.
 
AdrianF said:
Why not sell your current camera and buy a UK version? 25p timeline for editing, whether you're shooting 1080 or 720 and no dealing with pulldown. Shoot 1/50 or 1/100. The 1080 looks great in a lot of situations, search your feelings, feel don't think.
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I am okay with the NTSC model, especially as I'll be going back to Taiwan soon.

I am going to use 720p 60p for out door shooting on a steadicam
And 1080 24p for everything else

Cheers for the advice!
 
Barry_Green said:
Yep. For shutters that are 1/30 or faster.


No, in that case it's going to go to 20p. You can't have a shutter speed slower than your frame rate. So down to 1/30, you can have 30p. If you go below 1/30, it goes to 20p. If you go below 1/20 it goes to 15p, etc.


Yep.


If you're not going to shoot 1/30, and you're annoyed by mud, why not go straight to the MJPG 720/30p mode? Guaranteed "mud" free...
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Ugh. My HEAD is spinning what with all these frame rates...!!! :shocked:

What would be the recommended shutter speed for PAL versions of the GH-1? If I'm not mistaken, the frame rates above are for NTSC?
 
A question about 720p . . . If shooting at say 1/40 the camera is recording 25fps into a 50fps file (i'm in PAL land), does this mean that the effective bandwidth per frame is doubled? (I imagine the codec is smart enough to record the duplicate frames very efficiently)
 
gonkin.jo said:
A question about 720p . . . If shooting at say 1/40 the camera is recording 25fps into a 50fps file (i'm in PAL land), does this mean that the effective bandwidth per frame is doubled? (I imagine the codec is smart enough to record the duplicate frames very efficiently)
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Well, yes and no. Yes, you're now having only 25 distinct frames to encode versus 50, but -- it doesn't really work out that way. Because this is a long-GoP codec, it encodes the changes between frames. Fewer frames means more bits could potentially be allocated per frame, which sounds good, but -- fewer frames also means that there's more change between frames, which (as far as the codec is concerned) is bad.

I haven't done a side-by-side test, but I'm betting it'll net out probably around the same, compression-wise.
 
Barry_Green said:
Yep. For shutters that are 1/30 or faster.


No, in that case it's going to go to 20p. You can't have a shutter speed slower than your frame rate. So down to 1/30, you can have 30p. If you go below 1/30, it goes to 20p. If you go below 1/20 it goes to 15p, etc.


Yep.


If you're not going to shoot 1/30, and you're annoyed by mud, why not go straight to the MJPG 720/30p mode? Guaranteed "mud" free...
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Martti Ekstrand said:
1/50 for normal takes, 1/100 for 720p that you intend for slow-motion.
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Thank you :)

And shooting at 1/50 is OK for PAL systems? (I mean frame rates don't drop?)
 
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