Camera thread for marketers

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Going to make a thread that will make attempt to definitively sum up what most of us want in a camera.

I’ll list two different camera categories. One for pro, and one for consumer.

Will list all the main requirements of members here. Anytime there are conflicting requirements, the feature will be italicized, until some debate wins the argument and a few people can agree on one or both of the alternatives.
 
Professional Camera:

- 2K - Steve Yedlin
- 11+ stops DR
- cfast or ssd
- 10bit
- prores
- log color profile
- reliable
- weather resistant
- industry standard connections

Ergonomics is a high priority for professionals, but there are at least three main types of camera bodies that are prefered by professionals. So, it makes discussing the issue complicated.
 
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Consumer camera:
- 4K (1080 downscale option)
- 10bit
- SD card or ssd
- 14+ stops dynamic range
- wide dr profile
- compact and light
- affordability over weather sealing and reliability, so long as it isn’t a nighmare and bad user experience.
- common usb and hdmi like connections. But could avoid that altogether.

Have to update this for 2020:
Consumer camera:
- 8K 60fps(1080 downscale option, 4K120fps)
- 10bit
- SD card or ssd
- 15+ stops dynamic range
- wide dr profile
- compact and light
- affordability over weather sealing and reliability, so long as it isn’t a nighmare and bad user experience.
- common usb and hdmi like connections. But could avoid that altogether or just use wireless. but best if the HDMI is stick straight the side where your left hand would normally hold the camera. And it should be fragile.
 
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It depends on the price.

The sub-$1,500 consumer hybrids should probably be content with the internal 4K HEVC/H265 100 Mbps 10-bit Log to V-30 SD cards.

The high end consumer/prosumer should probably have some form of compressed Raw or the high rate Log 10-bit codec to CFexpress cards.

Given what the smartphones are about to do, there's going to a huge pressure to make very compelling packages, including the high quality AF lenses.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Funny joke.
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Hey now. Haha. Let’s see how this plays out. It is definitely toting the line, but i am willing to give it a shot. Let’s see if the five of us can agree. The marketing geniuses no doubt have more sophisticated tools available... as well as different goals than camera people.

But yes... What camera people want is a joke.
 
DLD said:
It depends on the price.

The sub-$1,500 consumer hybrids should probably be content with the internal 4K HEVC/H265 100 Mbps 10-bit Log to V-30 SD cards.

The high end consumer/prosumer should probably have some form of compressed Raw or the high rate Log 10-bit codec to CFexpress cards.

Given what the smartphones are about to do, there's going to a huge pressure to make very compelling packages, including the high quality AF lenses.
Click to expand...

I think markets are big enough with consumers, that they eventually get what they want, in some bastard form. Top tier James Cameron and George Lucas types get some direct feed back, but by and larger the video world is pretty much happy with the status quot.
 
Anyway, if the responses to this thread are any indication, then i am surprised we even have the cameras we have at this point.
 
WRT the ergonomics, it seems that the market has spoken on the high end cameras that will be supported by crews and AC's.

But there's also a miniaturization trend, which has worked in the electronics so far but not in lenses on the high end. That's probably the next step. Zeiss Otus 55mm (~ $3,700) is about a kilo, with the cine mod adding half a pound or so, and one'd have to do some major stare-at-the-screen comparisons to tell it apart from the high end pro primes. And Sigma ART lenses weigh even less and perform almost as well. And they have auto focus on top of that.

Plus, gimbals and motion control robots will take over some duties too.
 
The glass inside the primes is of similar size in stills and cine primes (in Zeiss Compact Primes and Sigmas they are in fact identical), it is the housings that are different. They are different because that's what the use calls for. Cine crews want large housings with many reference marks spread over a large rotation. They want these marks to be repeatedly accurate with no slop in the mechanics. Still users want small housings that can adjust quickly and be driven by tiny incorporated motors. These are opposite mechanical designs for different usage styles. You can't have both without it being a compromise design. One is not better than the other, just different.

Do not tell me that "the industry is moving this way or that." Maybe a given part of the market is shifting but not the business as a whole. So there will be different produts for different uses. That's just the lenses as example, but it holds true fr most everything.
 
The fact remains that many of the pros on this forum say that 12 stops dr is more than enough. 8bit is effecient and provides enough quality. And that no one can see any resolution beyond 2k.
 
Mitch Gross said:
... Do not tell me that "the industry is moving this way or that." Maybe a given part of the market is shifting but not the business as a whole. So there will be different produts for different uses. That's just the lenses as example, but it holds true fr most everything.
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Well, if the market went from a handful of sub-5 lbs cameras - not counting Canon Cinema EOS line, which found a niche in the reality TV/documentary market until other releases superseded it - by Red to having several, then it's a trend. A trend for a particular sector or a part of the mix? Surely so. If a 1-hr TV show once had ten Alexas, now it may have six Alexas and four Alexa Minis. And their next buy may be ten Mini LF's. Why? Because small size has a practical benefit while having almost no disadvantages on a fixed platform.

Let's go to the video tape, which sounds almost identical to Sony's explanation for the Venice 2Piece.

Michael Jonas of ARRI with Dan Chung from 2015.

Q: What was ARRI’s rationale when creating this camera?

A: One of our customers’ primary requests was for a compact and lightweight camera that would complement the ALEXA camera system. These requests were mainly driven by workflow or grading issues when having to integrate footage from 3rd party cameras with the material shot on ALEXA, but also by the desire to have an equally easy-to-use and reliable camera as the ALEXA. In addition, operators of handheld gimbals and multicopters suggested to us that the majority of their customers would be interested in using an ALEXA on such rigs, which wasn’t really practical with our main unit cameras.

Q: Who do you see as the potential users?

A: We expect the camera to be used by everybody who relies on ALEXA as a main camera but struggles with the form factor and weight for certain applications. Crews working on ALEXA-based productions will use the ALEXA Mini in tight environments, on cranes or special rigs, or as a handheld camera. Other users will include individuals working with gimbals and multicopters, or underwater, who want to take their craft to the next level and open up new opportunities on higher-end productions.
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https://www.newsshooter.com/2015/02...n-and-qa-with-product-designer-michael-jonas/
 
Cameras may end up like cellphones... a race to the smallest before returning to a more sensible size and less ergonomic design.
 
James0b57 said:
Cameras may end up like cellphones... a race to the smallest before returning to a more sensible size and less ergonomic design.
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In the 1984, Motorola DynaTac, aka the Brick, was the shiznit. It also cost $3,500. In 1993, it was advertized for $39 with activation. The Flip Phone was $2,500 in 1989 and around $150 (once again, with activation) in 1994. Then, when StarTac appeared around 1996, people were wondering if it was a worthwhile upgrade. It was cute and small but not that much smaller than the Flip with a tiny battery.

And since then, Motorola went from being the king of the industry to being an also-ran.

As to cameras, I can't see a Sony RX100 line ever becoming "pro" despite being able to deliver a reasonably good looking 4K image. But I can see the removable control panels, return to the belt-mounted batteries, two piece pro cams a la 1970's VHS models, etc.
 
DLD said:
Well, if the market went from a handful of sub-5 lbs cameras - not counting Canon Cinema EOS line, which found a niche in the reality TV/documentary market until other releases superseded it - by Red to having several, then it's a trend. A trend for a particular sector or a part of the mix? Surely so. If a 1-hr TV show once had ten Alexas, now it may have six Alexas and four Alexa Minis. And their next buy may be ten Mini LF's. Why? Because small size has a practical benefit while having almost no disadvantages on a fixed platform.

Let's go to the video tape, which sounds almost identical to Sony's explanation for the Venice 2Piece.

Michael Jonas of ARRI with Dan Chung from 2015.



https://www.newsshooter.com/2015/02...n-and-qa-with-product-designer-michael-jonas/
Click to expand...

A narrow slice of a subdivided industry. I see what actually gets sold and in what volume. Just because there aren't forums devoted to stuff like PTZ cameras and studio-style production equipment doesn't mean that stuff isn't big. Just because most people here don't get all excited about a camcorder with built-in zoom doesn't mean that such products are outselling other sectors of the market, because they are. A single multicam reality show can be interesting and I enjoy posting about how Deadliest Catch switched to 7 VariCams and 20 EVA1s last season (up for an EMMY for it too! ;-D), but those 27 cameras were a nice sale but not a grand overall trend in the vast industry in which we all play. There are more thing in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
 
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