California AB-5 Law
- Thread starter chris f
- Start date
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Ugh 20 min? Why not just summarize.
I thought people were leaving California for texas before the pandemic after they got rich in SV and wanted to avoid income taxes, but they were being replaced by new gold diggers.
And I thought they were leaving during the pandemic because remote work is now a thing and they can find cheaper housing elsewhere
I thought people were leaving California for texas before the pandemic after they got rich in SV and wanted to avoid income taxes, but they were being replaced by new gold diggers.
And I thought they were leaving during the pandemic because remote work is now a thing and they can find cheaper housing elsewhere
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Those are just the tip of the iceburg. As a lifelong Californian, people are leaving because the outright incompetence in the government of this state, the insane laws and policies like AB5, the continual
imposition of Sacramento into every facet of everyone's lives. California is almost entirely a third world country with the uber rich and the poor left to serve them. Most Silicon Valley success
stories are wealthy enough to have homes in several states or countries so their "exodus" isn't a real thing, they live wherever they want and claim their primary residence wherever they want.
The exodus is the middle class because they aren't wealthy enough to survive here and they don't want to serve as staff for the uber rich.
Every person I know who has fled this state, it's mostly because of the mindset here, the economics second, job availability and taxes third. The only semi affordable places left in Southern California
are the desert and Inland Empire and the prices are rapidly rising even there. And California desert is UGLY, not beautiful like the Sonoran Desert in most of Arizona.
I own a couple of rental properties in the desert here, it used to be affordable ten years ago when I bought them but now a house I bought for a reasonable $99K a decade ago, a very nice but super average four bedroom,
two bath tract home, is worth $300k and is still rapidly rising, but the city and area around are a hellscape. My $300k house desert house, if it was located where I live, 10 miles from the coast, in what used to be a solidly
middle class bedroom community, would be worth 1.2-1.5 million with the land it sits on.
My little brother has a pretty good lower management job with a pharma company here, making $100k plus per year. But he and his wife
cannot begin to afford more than a tiny condo and they have three kids, he's been applying for transfer positions to other states so they can actually afford to buy a house to raise their family, which they simply will never do here.
His salary here puts them at lower middle class, whereas if he can make the same salary in a normal state, they will be doing really well and can afford a house with a yard and enough bedrooms for the kids. He is the perfect example
of what used to make California a success, a hard working middle class. California is only a success now because of Silicon Valley Billionaires. There is still plenty of wealth in this state, but it's owned only by the uber rich, not distributed
among the middle class. That's the cause of the exodus.
Normal middle class people cannot live in California. The wealthy own everything desirable and the non wealthy are moving out of state or pay exorbitant rents for sub par apartments and houses. I am only here because
I aged in and bought in the 80s and 90s when it was semi affordable but my kids will never be able to afford property in California, unless when I die if I still have mine and they inherit it.
I think the era of "normal" middle class people moving to or even wanting to move to California is over. The Exodus is real and growing.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Whenever I’m flipping around the channels and land on one of the home/real estate shows and they’re in CA(NY, too) I always laugh my ass off, because of the stupid real estate “values”. You’ll usually see some young couple looking at a 900 sq foot house with no yard in a sh!tty area for half-a-mil or more and exclaim what a great deal it is.
If you live where I do and you’re making $100K/year, you have very few worries. Or at least you didn’t... Now we have such an influx of people moving here, because of the lower cost of living, better quality of life and climate that there’s a housing shortage in a lot of areas and our real estate prices are climbing. There are also other problems that people fleeing one state for another cause, but they verge on political, so we can’t really discuss them.
If you live where I do and you’re making $100K/year, you have very few worries. Or at least you didn’t... Now we have such an influx of people moving here, because of the lower cost of living, better quality of life and climate that there’s a housing shortage in a lot of areas and our real estate prices are climbing. There are also other problems that people fleeing one state for another cause, but they verge on political, so we can’t really discuss them.
Nationally, we’re in a time of huge flux. Globally too, for that matter.
I’m applying for a full time gig in western SD... wasn’t prepared for the property out there to be as dear as Zillow is showing. Most of the ‘homes’ for sale are new builds in suburban style developments, and this is in an area in the Black Hills with fewer than 5000 people in the adjoining towns.
Property values in TN and TX, where I’d also looked last year, are steadily climbing.
We’re in an OK position because our modest house with a homestead-style 3-acre yard within striking distance of Richmond and DC is an ideal escape for some .gov folks making their NoVA exodus... but property values just within downtown Charlottesville, a mere 20 minutes away, are in freefall. Crime is up, taxes are up, and businesses are embracing work-at-home.
IMHO things will really ramp up once StarLink goes online nationally.
I’m applying for a full time gig in western SD... wasn’t prepared for the property out there to be as dear as Zillow is showing. Most of the ‘homes’ for sale are new builds in suburban style developments, and this is in an area in the Black Hills with fewer than 5000 people in the adjoining towns.
Property values in TN and TX, where I’d also looked last year, are steadily climbing.
We’re in an OK position because our modest house with a homestead-style 3-acre yard within striking distance of Richmond and DC is an ideal escape for some .gov folks making their NoVA exodus... but property values just within downtown Charlottesville, a mere 20 minutes away, are in freefall. Crime is up, taxes are up, and businesses are embracing work-at-home.
IMHO things will really ramp up once StarLink goes online nationally.
LOL! Another „California is doomed” run? Doooomed I tell ya! Then we check in in another 10 years, and there California is, as always #1 in wealth, creativity and importance - this funny dance has been going on since the 60’s when the hippies of San Francisco were a sure sign of CA destined to soon fall into the sea as the 60’s counter culture destroyed the work ethic, family values and decency. Funny how barefoot hippies who tuned in and dropped out (including college!) like Steve Jobs meanwhile became part of the greatest engine of creativity on the planet and sparked an economic boom that is the envy of the world and still today has not quit!
And since then, we’ve had every single year prophets of doom promise that this time for sure, pinkie swear California is DOOOMED, DOOOMED I tell ya this time for real, real... oops, wrong again, but NEXT time... it’s like Charlie and the football, forever hopeful that one day they’ll be right and redeemed! But here comes another documentary! Whoweee!
Meanwhile California meets its challenges and goes from strength to strength laughing all the way to the bank. It’s comical to see how those who have banked on the fall of CA always come up emtpy, but it’s also comical to see just how blind folks are - often within the same anti-CA rant, showing the very contradictions that underlie their utter misunderstanding of reality that leads to making such always wrong calls about CA’s future. Even in these last few comments - first, there’s terrible complaints about how CA real estate prices are idiotic and a sure sign of insanity and doom for the state... and in the same breath complaining about how the DEMAND for housing is driving up prices in the supposed „sensible” states of SD and other centers of desirability. So it seems like DEMAND is driven by people wanting to live there and that’s good showing how desirable the state is (SD, Texas etc.), but oops, that drives up real estate costs! But I guess the high real estate costs DRIVEN BY DEMAND doesn’t mean that CA is the most desirable place to live... LOL, one can either weep at humanity or laugh at its foibles... I prefer the latter. Some folks will never get it, oh well, put them on the sky high pile of all the other doomsayers who have been wrong about CA and will continue to be wrong into their graves. You can either face reality or insist on your own delusions of how economics work. Personally, I’d love for the doomsayers to be right - it would mean RE prices in CA would collapse as nobody wants to live here and I could load up on tons of cheap real estate and make a fortune as is the history of CA - prices pause, maybe slightly decline before rocketing up again... please, please let the doomsaysers be right, LOL, let the prices collapse! People hate the government here, so it means nobody wants to live here so how come the demand is so strong and the prices only go up? I thought people hated the Sacramento government and are fleeing and the quality of life is a third world country - btw. which third world hellhole has high real estate prices, lol - quality of life is bad so nobody wants to buy real estate in CA so prices collapsed... ok, time to wake up, it was just another delusion.
So as the most creative place on earth (Israel is coming up quickly also in per capita hi-tech inventions and income from them), CA will continue to attract the best of the best - but I guess we should make sympathetic noises in the direction of all the complainers who leave the state in a big huff offended by the state’s ideology. The thing is, CA has been at the forefront of social and political developments which the rest of the country only follows with a few decades of lag... and so we’ve always had, with every development those who hated it leaving for the greener pastures of Alabama or Kentucky or Idaho or wherever their ideology still seemed in supremacy. It’s been true since the 60’s. Except in time, what CA dreamed up gets adopted elsewhere, eventually. Because, like the iPhone, it’s really good, and sparks a revolution in the phone space, even if at the beginning it was criticized and hated on and ridiculed... anyone remember Steve Ballmer of Microsoft who couldn’t stop laughing when the iPhone was unveiled - laughing about how OVERPRICED it was - I guess how overpriced our real estate in CA is:
https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U
He laughed and laughed and laughed and was sure of his „windows mobile” strategy and on and on and on. And then, the iPhone was adopted by all, and all the imitators started, Android and on - you either joined or imitated, but trying to battle it, ended up like windows on the phone or nokia or blackberry. And one day, you too will adopt our ideas, because we are the leaders and innovators - „first they ignore you, then they LAUGH at you, then they fight you, then you win”. Our real estate is „overpriced” right now, just like the iPhone, and then, it gets adopted and if your new state is any good, it too will start getting „overpriced” - the adoption of CA real estate economics will be in full swing... we already are seeing the start of it. Then you’ll move again. And again. And complain each time. We Californians meanwhile will stay put. But happy for you! Bon voyage!
And so too again. Every time the state stumbles slightly, cheers erupt from the ill-wishers, and this time is no different. They watch the gentleman cough, and they’re ready to scream „LUNG CANCER!” „DEATH!” „HA HA HA DEAD SOON!”... except it was just a cough, a stumble and then it’s off to the races again, the gentleman is fundamentally healthy and will outlive all his critics and ill-wishers.
Another exodus you say? Have a nice journey and you can be sure that wherever you go, you will be using our products to connect wtih the world and your loved ones and will be impossible to live without, our dreams and ideas will penetrate to whereever you end up, and CA will continue to march forward showing the way, smiling at the impotent slings and arrows of the doomsayers.
The statistics are there for all to see - I’ve cited them often enough in this thread. But I guess facts don’t matter, because it’s not about facts. It’s about ideology, bias and perception. Our challenges are just that - temporary challenges to us optimistic Californians - but signs of impending doom to those who are too tired or too bewildered at the changes or unable to accept that life moves on and it’s impossible to re-create the mythical 50’s and Leave it to Beaver (Hollywood production - California again, oops!). We get it. You can’t handle it. But there will be new dreamers born and those who will come here who will push this state into ever greater heights, a new Steve Jobs is just getting started while you fire up the U-Haul for the greener pastures of Texas or wherever.
And that’s the beauty of it all, ain’t it? We all get to choose and live our best lives. I am happy here in CA - in spite of its challenges - and I’m happy for you that you can move to your mythical state that has zero challenges. We Californians will use our creativity to solve our problems, and others... well, they can move again when our ideas inevitably reach their state
Choice is good. I’m happy for anyone who is happy with their choices. Love Alabama? Great, I’m happy for you, I have nothing bad to say about Alabama, you do you. Texas? Great! Kentucky? Great! Idaho? Great! Happy for you, it’s all good. Which strikes me as curious - why can’t you be happy for those of us who love living in CA and why do you feel such a need to run down CA and jump for joy when we stumble and curse when we win? Why can’t you be happy for us, just as we are happy for you wherever it is that you are at? Funny that. It seems like California is living in your head rent-free (ha!), because who would obsess so much if CA was indeed an insignificant worthless state or such a hell-hole as described by the doomsayers? We’re not talking about your state, why are you talking about California? Must be we are somehow getting into your head. So sad. Let go of negativity - it wins you nothing and doesn’t hurt the object of your compliants. California will continue doing well, and you... can continue to complain and project doom.
Don’t like AB-5? Simple. Go where there are no such laws - I’m sure they’re humming centers of economic activity because of all those refugees from AB-5 and how wonderful it is to have zero protections and how everyone can do whatever they wish to anyone else with no recourse. Why worry about AB-5, since you won’t be in CA? Or is it that there is economic activity in CA which is why you’re complaining about AB-5? Can’t have it both ways - I thought CA collapsed, so why care about AB-5 if there is no work to be had anyway? Focus on thriving Mississippi safe from AB-5. Meanwhile we’ll reform or change AB-5 and continue to aggravate all our ill-wishers
To each his own. You laugh at CA... and we laugh too, albeit with a slightly different reason but as long as we’re all laughing, it’s all good. Best wishes to all, wherever they are - we love it here in CA and love it that you love it where you are, thank you for being over there!
And since then, we’ve had every single year prophets of doom promise that this time for sure, pinkie swear California is DOOOMED, DOOOMED I tell ya this time for real, real... oops, wrong again, but NEXT time... it’s like Charlie and the football, forever hopeful that one day they’ll be right and redeemed! But here comes another documentary! Whoweee!
Meanwhile California meets its challenges and goes from strength to strength laughing all the way to the bank. It’s comical to see how those who have banked on the fall of CA always come up emtpy, but it’s also comical to see just how blind folks are - often within the same anti-CA rant, showing the very contradictions that underlie their utter misunderstanding of reality that leads to making such always wrong calls about CA’s future. Even in these last few comments - first, there’s terrible complaints about how CA real estate prices are idiotic and a sure sign of insanity and doom for the state... and in the same breath complaining about how the DEMAND for housing is driving up prices in the supposed „sensible” states of SD and other centers of desirability. So it seems like DEMAND is driven by people wanting to live there and that’s good showing how desirable the state is (SD, Texas etc.), but oops, that drives up real estate costs! But I guess the high real estate costs DRIVEN BY DEMAND doesn’t mean that CA is the most desirable place to live... LOL, one can either weep at humanity or laugh at its foibles... I prefer the latter. Some folks will never get it, oh well, put them on the sky high pile of all the other doomsayers who have been wrong about CA and will continue to be wrong into their graves. You can either face reality or insist on your own delusions of how economics work. Personally, I’d love for the doomsayers to be right - it would mean RE prices in CA would collapse as nobody wants to live here and I could load up on tons of cheap real estate and make a fortune as is the history of CA - prices pause, maybe slightly decline before rocketing up again... please, please let the doomsaysers be right, LOL, let the prices collapse! People hate the government here, so it means nobody wants to live here so how come the demand is so strong and the prices only go up? I thought people hated the Sacramento government and are fleeing and the quality of life is a third world country - btw. which third world hellhole has high real estate prices, lol - quality of life is bad so nobody wants to buy real estate in CA so prices collapsed... ok, time to wake up, it was just another delusion.
So as the most creative place on earth (Israel is coming up quickly also in per capita hi-tech inventions and income from them), CA will continue to attract the best of the best - but I guess we should make sympathetic noises in the direction of all the complainers who leave the state in a big huff offended by the state’s ideology. The thing is, CA has been at the forefront of social and political developments which the rest of the country only follows with a few decades of lag... and so we’ve always had, with every development those who hated it leaving for the greener pastures of Alabama or Kentucky or Idaho or wherever their ideology still seemed in supremacy. It’s been true since the 60’s. Except in time, what CA dreamed up gets adopted elsewhere, eventually. Because, like the iPhone, it’s really good, and sparks a revolution in the phone space, even if at the beginning it was criticized and hated on and ridiculed... anyone remember Steve Ballmer of Microsoft who couldn’t stop laughing when the iPhone was unveiled - laughing about how OVERPRICED it was - I guess how overpriced our real estate in CA is:
https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U
He laughed and laughed and laughed and was sure of his „windows mobile” strategy and on and on and on. And then, the iPhone was adopted by all, and all the imitators started, Android and on - you either joined or imitated, but trying to battle it, ended up like windows on the phone or nokia or blackberry. And one day, you too will adopt our ideas, because we are the leaders and innovators - „first they ignore you, then they LAUGH at you, then they fight you, then you win”. Our real estate is „overpriced” right now, just like the iPhone, and then, it gets adopted and if your new state is any good, it too will start getting „overpriced” - the adoption of CA real estate economics will be in full swing... we already are seeing the start of it. Then you’ll move again. And again. And complain each time. We Californians meanwhile will stay put. But happy for you! Bon voyage!
And so too again. Every time the state stumbles slightly, cheers erupt from the ill-wishers, and this time is no different. They watch the gentleman cough, and they’re ready to scream „LUNG CANCER!” „DEATH!” „HA HA HA DEAD SOON!”... except it was just a cough, a stumble and then it’s off to the races again, the gentleman is fundamentally healthy and will outlive all his critics and ill-wishers.
Another exodus you say? Have a nice journey and you can be sure that wherever you go, you will be using our products to connect wtih the world and your loved ones and will be impossible to live without, our dreams and ideas will penetrate to whereever you end up, and CA will continue to march forward showing the way, smiling at the impotent slings and arrows of the doomsayers.
The statistics are there for all to see - I’ve cited them often enough in this thread. But I guess facts don’t matter, because it’s not about facts. It’s about ideology, bias and perception. Our challenges are just that - temporary challenges to us optimistic Californians - but signs of impending doom to those who are too tired or too bewildered at the changes or unable to accept that life moves on and it’s impossible to re-create the mythical 50’s and Leave it to Beaver (Hollywood production - California again, oops!). We get it. You can’t handle it. But there will be new dreamers born and those who will come here who will push this state into ever greater heights, a new Steve Jobs is just getting started while you fire up the U-Haul for the greener pastures of Texas or wherever.
And that’s the beauty of it all, ain’t it? We all get to choose and live our best lives. I am happy here in CA - in spite of its challenges - and I’m happy for you that you can move to your mythical state that has zero challenges. We Californians will use our creativity to solve our problems, and others... well, they can move again when our ideas inevitably reach their state
Choice is good. I’m happy for anyone who is happy with their choices. Love Alabama? Great, I’m happy for you, I have nothing bad to say about Alabama, you do you. Texas? Great! Kentucky? Great! Idaho? Great! Happy for you, it’s all good. Which strikes me as curious - why can’t you be happy for those of us who love living in CA and why do you feel such a need to run down CA and jump for joy when we stumble and curse when we win? Why can’t you be happy for us, just as we are happy for you wherever it is that you are at? Funny that. It seems like California is living in your head rent-free (ha!), because who would obsess so much if CA was indeed an insignificant worthless state or such a hell-hole as described by the doomsayers? We’re not talking about your state, why are you talking about California? Must be we are somehow getting into your head. So sad. Let go of negativity - it wins you nothing and doesn’t hurt the object of your compliants. California will continue doing well, and you... can continue to complain and project doom.
Don’t like AB-5? Simple. Go where there are no such laws - I’m sure they’re humming centers of economic activity because of all those refugees from AB-5 and how wonderful it is to have zero protections and how everyone can do whatever they wish to anyone else with no recourse. Why worry about AB-5, since you won’t be in CA? Or is it that there is economic activity in CA which is why you’re complaining about AB-5? Can’t have it both ways - I thought CA collapsed, so why care about AB-5 if there is no work to be had anyway? Focus on thriving Mississippi safe from AB-5. Meanwhile we’ll reform or change AB-5 and continue to aggravate all our ill-wishers
To each his own. You laugh at CA... and we laugh too, albeit with a slightly different reason
but as long as we’re all laughing, it’s all good. Best wishes to all, wherever they are - we love it here in CA and love it that you love it where you are, thank you for being over there!
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Dont you think a lot of these shifts are at least partially temporary? Like NYC real estate is way down but the suburbs are way up. I think that after the pandemic ends, some folks are going to shift back to the boroughs. The continuation of remote work may allow some people to live a little further out, but I fully expect to see a new equilibrium of housing placement between the pre-pandemic equilibrium and the mid-pandemic equilibrium.
Those are just the tip of the iceburg. As a lifelong Californian, people are leaving because the outright incompetence in the government of this state, the insane laws and policies like AB5, the continual
imposition of Sacramento into every facet of everyone's lives. California is almost entirely a third world country with the uber rich and the poor left to serve them.
It’s interesting, because again, it’s all about perception and not really about facts. I mean, what are third world countries? One of the big complaints in this thread are the insanely high RE prices. Which 3rd world country has real estate prices like CA across the whole state - as the very critics of CA in this thread say, there are almost no “cheap” areas in CA. In 3rd world countries, at best, you have small select areas of the very rich that might be expensive. It’s never - ever - you can’t even give one example in this world - where the whole place has expensive RE. Because this means that the demand is so high that *every place* has eager buyers and the price stays high. Meanwhile, in 3rd world countries, the vast majority of the RE is of course terrible areas where nobody wants to pay a fortune for a shack. If you tell me that there is a country where there is no cheap real estate practically ANYWHERE, then I know that’s a very rich highly developed country... no exceptions! Like Switzerland or Singapore. And never a 3rd world country.
High demand is a sign of desirability. CA is not the biggest state by area. But it is the most populous. Simple thought... nobody is holding people within CA borders... people are free to move, unlike in most 3rd world countries. Why then is CA - such a hellhole - the most populous state, even though it is not the biggest by area? Because people moved here and stay here. In other words, because it’s desirable. Go figure! And so RE prices keep rocketing up. More people decided that CA is desirable than any other state in the nation - thems the numbers, sorry.
Third world countries are not as a rule democracies. CA is a democracy. Californians freely VOTED for those “incompetent” politicians who pass those “insane” laws. So... if the government - which again, was freely elected! - is so incompetent and laws so insane, why do people stay in a place to make it the most populous when they are free to move to places with “competent” goverment and “sane” laws?
It looks to me, like CA - the world’s 5th biggest economy - is not really a 3rd world country by any sensible measure - not wealth, not politics (democracy), not desirability by vast numbers of people (THE MOST populous state in the country) with the MOST expensive (i.e. desirable) RE in the whole country, not by culture and influence (hello Hollywood!) and trend setting and innovation, and, and, and... really, saying it’s a third world country is just a way of slurring and insulting, but with no objective measures - see above.
Complaining about the government - in a freely elected democratic system - and the laws, is really about ideology. Fair enough. But that gets us into subjectivity and preferences and bias. Everyone has their own bias. I AM BIASED. Again, I AM BIASED. I like it in CA, others hate CA. Bias.
So, I stay in CA with its “incompetent government” and “insane laws”. That’s my “bias”. Others, prefer the “competent governments” that pass “sane laws”. That’s their bias. Funny, how we can see the same thing, but have different biases about the same set of facts.
Many in this thread sing the praises of Idaho and how they’ve moved there from CA and how many folks from CA move there and so on. I guess they’re fleeing the incompetent and insane in CA for the competent and sane government in Idaho. Today I came across this:
Constitutional ban on legal pot advances in Idaho
The Idaho competent and completely sane legislature has decided to amend their very constitution to ban even medical pot. I guess it might be one of those sane laws the “mah freedum!” crowd fled CA for. You might not be able to decide what to do with you very own body and what to put into it, but hey, it’s a bias and a choice - looks like you can’t shoot up, but can certainly shoot to your heart’s content
And that’s fine. I am not criticizing Idaho. I just look at that, and say “yeah, it’s CA for me” while others look at that and say “Idaho, here I come, away from doomed CA!”. Both are biases. I am biased. Btw. it really isn’t about “me” - as far as I’m concerned. I don’t use pot - not something that interests me, regardless of legal status (f.ex. tobacco is also legal, but I never smoked that either). The whole “drug” thing is irrelevant to me - I’m not a user of any kind. Rather it’s a measure of personal freedom and respect for individual choice. Travelling the world over, having lived in many places, I came to note that I prefer places that don’t have sane or not sane, competent or incompetent governments that tell my fellow citizens what they’re allowed to do with their own bodies. Saudi Arabia even bans alcohol (and we had that too, and still do in many places like parts of Utah!). Just a bias. Even if it doesn’t concern me. I’m also not gay or trans or a woman, but from life experience, I prefer places where such groups are respected and not vilified - just my personal bias... so I like CA, and don’t like places where vicious discrimination is still reality or in the recent past. Just a personal bias. Possibly also a bias of a lot of people, judging by the fact that CA is still the most populous state in the nation, incompetent government and insane laws and all (incompetence and insanity that has driven this state in the past decade into #1 economic engine of the world per capita productivity). Just a bias, a bias of a lot, A LOT of people.
And so, we make our choices. I’m happy for your choices and I’m satisfied with mine. I don’t live in paradise and there are problems and we’re working on them, and guess what, sometimes we fail and we’ll continue to make mistakes and we will fail (like the original AB-5). I’m OK with CA not being perfect. I leave perfection to the “competent” governments of other states and their “sane” laws. My imperfect AB-5 or their perfect constitutional amendment. They’re better for those with different biases. My bias is CA. However, I keep an open mind - if one day I want to suffer agonizing pain without recourse to experimental or “off the official books” drugs or remedies, and it’s so bad that I want to shoot myself, I’ll keep Idaho in mind - I know it’ll be easy to shoot myself, and the unbearable unavoidable pain will be constitutionally protected, a great motivator
Kidding aside, my point is really simple. We are all - ALL - of us biased. My bias is no better than yours. The same set of facts and one person sees CA as a 3rd world country and the grass is greener in Idaho under the snow (well, in spring), another sees CA as not perfect, but the center of what it means to have *true* freedom not just for myself but for others, a creative, beautiful, kind place. So it goes.
In this context I remember what Barry G. wrote about his motorcycle trip across the country. And how he answered the critics of America - what he sees as the truth about America that the critics don’t see. Funny that. It’s what I think of CA and its critics... now there’s a twist for ya!
What a wonderful country where we can move to where we wish according to our ideals and our biases! Hate CA? Move! Hate Idaho/X? Move! We still, still live in a democracy, wait.. (err, OK, no politics!). All the best, and may your biases keep you happy!
imposition of Sacramento into every facet of everyone's lives. California is almost entirely a third world country with the uber rich and the poor left to serve them.
It’s interesting, because again, it’s all about perception and not really about facts. I mean, what are third world countries? One of the big complaints in this thread are the insanely high RE prices. Which 3rd world country has real estate prices like CA across the whole state - as the very critics of CA in this thread say, there are almost no “cheap” areas in CA. In 3rd world countries, at best, you have small select areas of the very rich that might be expensive. It’s never - ever - you can’t even give one example in this world - where the whole place has expensive RE. Because this means that the demand is so high that *every place* has eager buyers and the price stays high. Meanwhile, in 3rd world countries, the vast majority of the RE is of course terrible areas where nobody wants to pay a fortune for a shack. If you tell me that there is a country where there is no cheap real estate practically ANYWHERE, then I know that’s a very rich highly developed country... no exceptions! Like Switzerland or Singapore. And never a 3rd world country.
High demand is a sign of desirability. CA is not the biggest state by area. But it is the most populous. Simple thought... nobody is holding people within CA borders... people are free to move, unlike in most 3rd world countries. Why then is CA - such a hellhole - the most populous state, even though it is not the biggest by area? Because people moved here and stay here. In other words, because it’s desirable. Go figure! And so RE prices keep rocketing up. More people decided that CA is desirable than any other state in the nation - thems the numbers, sorry.
Third world countries are not as a rule democracies. CA is a democracy. Californians freely VOTED for those “incompetent” politicians who pass those “insane” laws. So... if the government - which again, was freely elected! - is so incompetent and laws so insane, why do people stay in a place to make it the most populous when they are free to move to places with “competent” goverment and “sane” laws?
It looks to me, like CA - the world’s 5th biggest economy - is not really a 3rd world country by any sensible measure - not wealth, not politics (democracy), not desirability by vast numbers of people (THE MOST populous state in the country) with the MOST expensive (i.e. desirable) RE in the whole country, not by culture and influence (hello Hollywood!) and trend setting and innovation, and, and, and... really, saying it’s a third world country is just a way of slurring and insulting, but with no objective measures - see above.
Complaining about the government - in a freely elected democratic system - and the laws, is really about ideology. Fair enough. But that gets us into subjectivity and preferences and bias. Everyone has their own bias. I AM BIASED. Again, I AM BIASED. I like it in CA, others hate CA. Bias.
So, I stay in CA with its “incompetent government” and “insane laws”. That’s my “bias”. Others, prefer the “competent governments” that pass “sane laws”. That’s their bias. Funny, how we can see the same thing, but have different biases about the same set of facts.
Many in this thread sing the praises of Idaho and how they’ve moved there from CA and how many folks from CA move there and so on. I guess they’re fleeing the incompetent and insane in CA for the competent and sane government in Idaho. Today I came across this:
Constitutional ban on legal pot advances in Idaho
The Idaho competent and completely sane legislature has decided to amend their very constitution to ban even medical pot. I guess it might be one of those sane laws the “mah freedum!” crowd fled CA for. You might not be able to decide what to do with you very own body and what to put into it, but hey, it’s a bias and a choice - looks like you can’t shoot up, but can certainly shoot to your heart’s content
And that’s fine. I am not criticizing Idaho. I just look at that, and say “yeah, it’s CA for me” while others look at that and say “Idaho, here I come, away from doomed CA!”. Both are biases. I am biased. Btw. it really isn’t about “me” - as far as I’m concerned. I don’t use pot - not something that interests me, regardless of legal status (f.ex. tobacco is also legal, but I never smoked that either). The whole “drug” thing is irrelevant to me - I’m not a user of any kind. Rather it’s a measure of personal freedom and respect for individual choice. Travelling the world over, having lived in many places, I came to note that I prefer places that don’t have sane or not sane, competent or incompetent governments that tell my fellow citizens what they’re allowed to do with their own bodies. Saudi Arabia even bans alcohol (and we had that too, and still do in many places like parts of Utah!). Just a bias. Even if it doesn’t concern me. I’m also not gay or trans or a woman, but from life experience, I prefer places where such groups are respected and not vilified - just my personal bias... so I like CA, and don’t like places where vicious discrimination is still reality or in the recent past. Just a personal bias. Possibly also a bias of a lot of people, judging by the fact that CA is still the most populous state in the nation, incompetent government and insane laws and all (incompetence and insanity that has driven this state in the past decade into #1 economic engine of the world per capita productivity). Just a bias, a bias of a lot, A LOT of people.
And so, we make our choices. I’m happy for your choices and I’m satisfied with mine. I don’t live in paradise and there are problems and we’re working on them, and guess what, sometimes we fail and we’ll continue to make mistakes and we will fail (like the original AB-5). I’m OK with CA not being perfect. I leave perfection to the “competent” governments of other states and their “sane” laws. My imperfect AB-5 or their perfect constitutional amendment. They’re better for those with different biases. My bias is CA. However, I keep an open mind - if one day I want to suffer agonizing pain without recourse to experimental or “off the official books” drugs or remedies, and it’s so bad that I want to shoot myself, I’ll keep Idaho in mind - I know it’ll be easy to shoot myself, and the unbearable unavoidable pain will be constitutionally protected, a great motivator
Kidding aside, my point is really simple. We are all - ALL - of us biased. My bias is no better than yours. The same set of facts and one person sees CA as a 3rd world country and the grass is greener in Idaho under the snow (well, in spring), another sees CA as not perfect, but the center of what it means to have *true* freedom not just for myself but for others, a creative, beautiful, kind place. So it goes.
In this context I remember what Barry G. wrote about his motorcycle trip across the country. And how he answered the critics of America - what he sees as the truth about America that the critics don’t see. Funny that. It’s what I think of CA and its critics
... now there’s a twist for ya!What a wonderful country where we can move to where we wish according to our ideals and our biases! Hate CA? Move! Hate Idaho/X? Move! We still, still live in a democracy, wait.. (err, OK, no politics!). All the best, and may your biases keep you happy!
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Those are just the tip of the iceburg. As a lifelong Californian, people are leaving because the outright incompetence in the government of this state, the insane laws and policies like AB5, the continual
imposition of Sacramento into every facet of everyone's lives. California is almost entirely a third world country with the uber rich and the poor left to serve them.
It’s interesting, because again, it’s all about perception and not really about facts. I mean, what are third world countries? One of the big complaints in this thread are the insanely high RE prices. Which 3rd world country has real estate prices like CA across the whole state - as the very critics of CA in this thread say, there are almost no “cheap” areas in CA. In 3rd world countries, at best, you have small select areas of the very rich that might be expensive. It’s never - ever - you can’t even give one example in this world - where the whole place has expensive RE. Because this means that the demand is so high that *every place* has eager buyers and the price stays high. Meanwhile, in 3rd world countries, the vast majority of the RE is of course terrible areas where nobody wants to pay a fortune for a shack. If you tell me that there is a country where there is no cheap real estate practically ANYWHERE, then I know that’s a very rich highly developed country... no exceptions! Like Switzerland or Singapore. And never a 3rd world country.
High demand is a sign of desirability. CA is not the biggest state by area. But it is the most populous. Simple thought... nobody is holding people within CA borders... people are free to move, unlike in most 3rd world countries. Why then is CA - such a hellhole - the most populous state, even though it is not the biggest by area? Because people moved here and stay here. In other words, because it’s desirable. Go figure! And so RE prices keep rocketing up. More people decided that CA is desirable than any other state in the nation - thems the numbers, sorry.
Third world countries are not as a rule democracies. CA is a democracy. Californians freely VOTED for those “incompetent” politicians who pass those “insane” laws. So... if the government - which again, was freely elected! - is so incompetent and laws so insane, why do people stay in a place to make it the most populous when they are free to move to places with “competent” goverment and “sane” laws?
It looks to me, like CA - the world’s 5th biggest economy - is not really a 3rd world country by any sensible measure - not wealth, not politics (democracy), not desirability by vast numbers of people (THE MOST populous state in the country) with the MOST expensive (i.e. desirable) RE in the whole country, not by culture and influence (hello Hollywood!) and trend setting and innovation, and, and, and... really, saying it’s a third world country is just a way of slurring and insulting, but with no objective measures - see above.
Complaining about the government - in a freely elected democratic system - and the laws, is really about ideology. Fair enough. But that gets us into subjectivity and preferences and bias. Everyone has their own bias. I AM BIASED. Again, I AM BIASED. I like it in CA, others hate CA. Bias.
So, I stay in CA with its “incompetent government” and “insane laws”. That’s my “bias”. Others, prefer the “competent governments” that pass “sane laws”. That’s their bias. Funny, how we can see the same thing, but have different biases about the same set of facts.
Many in this thread sing the praises of Idaho and how they’ve moved there from CA and how many folks from CA move there and so on. I guess they’re fleeing the incompetent and insane in CA for the competent and sane government in Idaho. Today I came across this:
Constitutional ban on legal pot advances in Idaho
The Idaho competent and completely sane legislature has decided to amend their very constitution to ban even medical pot. I guess it might be one of those sane laws the “mah freedum!” crowd fled CA for. You might not be able to decide what to do with you very own body and what to put into it, but hey, it’s a bias and a choice - looks like you can’t shoot up, but can certainly shoot to your heart’s content
And that’s fine. I am not criticizing Idaho. I just look at that, and say “yeah, it’s CA for me” while others look at that and say “Idaho, here I come, away from doomed CA!”. Both are biases. I am biased. Btw. it really isn’t about “me” - as far as I’m concerned. I don’t use pot - not something that interests me, regardless of legal status (f.ex. tobacco is also legal, but I never smoked that either). The whole “drug” thing is irrelevant to me - I’m not a user of any kind. Rather it’s a measure of personal freedom and respect for individual choice. Travelling the world over, having lived in many places, I came to note that I prefer places that don’t have sane or not sane, competent or incompetent governments that tell my fellow citizens what they’re allowed to do with their own bodies. Saudi Arabia even bans alcohol (and we had that too, and still do in many places like parts of Utah!). Just a bias. Even if it doesn’t concern me. I’m also not gay or trans or a woman, but from life experience, I prefer places where such groups are respected and not vilified - just my personal bias... so I like CA, and don’t like places where vicious discrimination is still reality or in the recent past. Just a personal bias. Possibly also a bias of a lot of people, judging by the fact that CA is still the most populous state in the nation, incompetent government and insane laws and all (incompetence and insanity that has driven this state in the past decade into #1 economic engine of the world per capita productivity). Just a bias, a bias of a lot, A LOT of people.
And so, we make our choices. I’m happy for your choices and I’m satisfied with mine. I don’t live in paradise and there are problems and we’re working on them, and guess what, sometimes we fail and we’ll continue to make mistakes and we will fail (like the original AB-5). I’m OK with CA not being perfect. I leave perfection to the “competent” governments of other states and their “sane” laws. My imperfect AB-5 or their perfect constitutional amendment. They’re better for those with different biases. My bias is CA. However, I keep an open mind - if one day I want to suffer agonizing pain without recourse to experimental or “off the official books” drugs or remedies, and it’s so bad that I want to shoot myself, I’ll keep Idaho in mind - I know it’ll be easy to shoot myself, and the unbearable unavoidable pain will be constitutionally protected, a great motivator
Kidding aside, my point is really simple. We are all - ALL - of us biased. My bias is no better than yours. The same set of facts and one person sees CA as a 3rd world country and the grass is greener in Idaho under the snow (well, in spring), another sees CA as not perfect, but the center of what it means to have *true* freedom not just for myself but for others, a creative, beautiful, kind place. So it goes.
In this context I remember what Barry G. wrote about his motorcycle trip across the country. And how he answered the critics of America - what he sees as the truth about America that the critics don’t see. Funny that. It’s what I think of CA and its critics
What a wonderful country where we can move to where we wish according to our ideals and our biases! Hate CA? Move! Hate Idaho/X? Move! We still, still live in a democracy, wait.. (err, OK, no politics!). All the best, and may your biases keep you happy!
I knew you would respond to my post. You seem to be the only DVXer that loves California.
Not sure how long you've lived here? I was born here 58 years ago and have always lived here and within my lifetime, I have seen the places I go daily, weekly, monthly or just occasionally over the state
become progrssively worse with a huge acceleration in decay over the past decade in particular. Uglier, more polluted, more homeless, more crime, more gangs, more rampant drug dealing and use (no, not
Pot, I don't care about Pot really. If people enjoy killing their brain cells, have at it). Your profile says you live in Los Angeles, I live right above it and do most of my work in LA. So seeing the insane growth
in homeless encampments all over the 101, the overpasses, the Tijuana-like garbage dumps literally spilling onto the lanes of the 101, this all spells a utopian socety for you, better than any of the other 49 states?
I notice your language, a few words and phrases that seem interesting. You state that California is a democracy. Last I checked, the United States is a Constitutional Republic and is not and has never been a democracy.
Since California is a state, I would posit that it too is a Consitutional Republic, and not a democracy. A democracy is a mob rules system of government where the majority makes all of the rules and victomizes anyone who
is not a member of that majority with no recourse. Since California has become a single party rule state with one party holding, realistically ALL of the power to conceive, make and pass any "law" that the single party in power rules
the state has gone way downhill. California worked orders better when we actually had a two party system of checks and balances. I am not a member of either party but things here were MUCH better overall, statewide when you had
one party keeping the other party in check, regardless of which party held majority vote. But those days are over and will never return, that is why in my opinion, California has devolved into the "paradise" that it has become.
Most of your rebuttal centers around economic viability, not standard of living, not having to deal with homeless everywhere, gang violence, corrupt politicians, insane laws that favor non-citizens, tax dollars being continually wasted on
boondoggles, favoritism, special interests and pork. Not sure of your direct dealings with the members of the Los Angeles City Council and or the Board of Supervisors, but in my career, I have dealt with both entities on a variety or projects
and situations and never have I found a more corrupt, inept, tyrannical and hubris filled group of people in my life. A good friend is the head of a municipal water board here in my county and has similar dealing with the denizens of Sacramento.
Through his experience and stories, along with my own in producing work with all kinds of state regulatory and legislative offices, I have gained an understanding of how utterly biased the legislative body of this state's government is.
The power and money in this state is in the Bay Area and Silicon Valley. Your city and San Diego have laughable power in Sacramento and especially with water rights. You should hear how LA and San Diego are regarded by legislators behind closed doors,
we're a joke down here.
So keep being a chairman for the "Yay, California is Paradise, no place better on the entire globe" contingent. It's your bias and I have no problem with it, I just vastly disagree with what I see and experience on a daily basis. Maybe everything is peachy in
your California (you're not rich are you? Do you live on the West Side?) but in my California, which has been my home my entire life as a decidedly middle class person, it's become a hellhole that any sane person would be salivating to evacuate from.
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ahalpert
Major Contributor
It's so funny that you say that because my wife regularly talks about moving to CA and I tell her I'd be abandoning the freelance clientele I've cultivated here for a decade.
I was born in Palo Alto and spent the first year of my life in CA (and obviously don't remember it) and then didn't make it back until we did a cross country road trip from San Diego to NY a few years back.
We had a wonderful time in SD. It was frigging goooorgeous. The weather, the beaches.
But also the people - the laid-back, live and let live attitude. Sure, they were also a bit spacy and maybe a bit vain. But altogether more pleasant than the prevalent NY sensibility. (We actually met a guy selling postcards in a shop on the pier who said he was from NY too and therefore the 3 of us New Yorkers must be the smartest people in San Diego at that moment and we thought wow what an asshole.)
Then we went to Joshua Tree. Been talking about getting back there ever since we left.
Then the grand caaaaanyon....arches....that whole damn section of the country is other-worldly. There's a lot of beauty in NY and the Hudson Valley (my current neck of the woods) but not like the southwest.
And again, we have facts and then our interpretation. Yes, I’ve spent many decades in CA, both San Francisco and the Bay area and SoCal, and yes, I live on the West Side, and no I’m not rich, although I’m not poor. No I wasn’t born here, but I have seen a lot of CA history and evolution through time. But crucially, I have also lived in other parts of the country and the world - and that experience, I suspect is what is responsible for our different perspectives. More on that later.
[...] progrssively worse with a huge acceleration in decay over the past decade in particular
Uglier, more polluted, more homeless, more crime, more gangs, more rampant drug dealing and use[...]
We all have our perceptions and feelings and biases. Which is why I always very boringly try to bring in statistics and objective facts. You say “more crime” particularly over the last decade. That’s your feeling and perception. Now for the facts - here are crime stats per capita since 1960:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm
Scroll down to per 100,000 people. Highest rate for murder was 41 years ago, 1980. Since then, it’s been mostly coming down, and really collapsing since about 1996, or 25 years ago. And it has *especially* gone down during the last decade (the time you said was particularly bad), from 2010, and reached the lowest level in 2019 (no data for 2020 yet) - i.e. pre-COVID time, to levels that were lowest since 1964(!!!). Already by 1965 (when you were still a kid! Golden times for the Golden State!) the rate of murder was higher than 2019. Robbery in 2019 was lower than at any time since 1966, and in the last decade since 2010 (which you think was so bad) lower than any other decade except the 60’s. Assault since 2010 (the bad decade according to you), again lowest since the 60’s. Here’s a good one - burglary - the decade since 2010 (the particularly bad decade according to you) has THE LOWEST RATES ON RECORD - even lower than the 60’s. Larceny-theft - same story, since 2010 LOWEST RATES ON RECORD even lower than the 60’s. Vehicle theft - since 2010 so low, it’s only comparable to the 60’s. Violent since 2010, only lower in the 60’s.
So much for perception vs reality on crime, and particularly in the last decade. And hate to break it to you, but gangs in LA have existed since the 30’s long before, during and after your Golden years of pure California - and in fact, over the past decade the number of gang crimes have gone down drastically. More polluted? Hate to break it to you, but California was much more polluted back in the “Golden Years”, than today, and in fact, the CA government (especially when run by those you call insane) was a pioneer in air quality control and is a leader in that field so far ahead that the federal government has tried to sabotage us. We are far less polluted today than in those mythical golden years that gave us Erin Brokovich and countless “insane” activist who gave us cleaner air, water and cleanup sites and expanded national and state parks.
And so on. We have feelings and perceptions, and then there are facts. So it goes. Of course, we know that certain rhetoric comes from certain places, when folks can’t accomodate change, especially when we’re not familiar with it - that’s when you get patently false narratives like the laws supposedly passed that, as you put it, “insane laws that favor non-citizens”... that is nativism with no grounding in facts, but fear and hatred and demonization of “the other”. I’d like to know which laws favor the boogeyman non-citizen over the citizen, a favorite talking point we all know from bitter history the world over and the wars that had to be fought against those who trade in such propaganda.
Since California has become a single party rule state with one party holding, realistically ALL of the power to conceive, make and pass any "law" that the single party in power rules
the state has gone way downhill. California worked orders better when we actually had a two party system of checks and balances. I am not a member of either party but things here were MUCH better overall, statewide when you had
one party keeping the other party in check, regardless of which party held majority vote. But those days are over and will never return, that is why in my opinion, California has devolved into the "paradise" that it has become.
It’s funny that you trot out your having lived here and your memory of how California was and is, and yet you manage to get it 180 degrees wrong. Like in the “opposite” is the truth. In fact, it’s ironic because I agree with you that two parties are better than one, and one party rule usually leads to abuses over time. But, much to my surprise that’s not how it’s worked out SO FAR - the future may yet show us the folly of one party rule, but well, facts are facts and history is history SO FAR. So now for a reality check. Since one party has gotten into power - strike that, since one party WAS VOTED into power by CITIZENS exercising their rights, over the last decade, California has made tremendous progress economically - in fact it was an unparralelled boom I keep reminding folks of. But also - and this is the massive irony of it all - when power was divided in CA we had massive budgetary gridlock and terrible finances because everything was getting blocked (remind anyone of Washington over the past 15 years?) by terrible partisan politics. But once one party dominated - the budget became massively better, the finances recovered remarkably under Brown and Newsome, and we even established a rainy day fund (of course COVID is a disaster, so...). So, mister “I was here”, your memory seems a bit faulty - I too was here for all that drama and I well remember the horrible gridlock and terrible deficits and the state going broke under the supposed “checks and balances” which translated into “partisan warfare”. Because you see, the lesson is, that two parties are better than one, only if both parties are sane, but once a party gets taken over by loons, well, nobody is better off.
Which brings me to the rest of your complaints about the terrible corrupt and incompetent government in CA and your experiences. This is where wider experience comes in handy. If all you know is one state, your have zero perspective. I’ve lived in countries that are regarded as the models of good governance and... let me tell you, “stupidity” and incompetent civil servants are ALL OVER THE PLACE. That’s what you are missing. It’s like the rich kid who only knows his own family and he’s really bent out of shape about how unfair his dad was when he didn’t give him his hot lunch - yeah, the complaint is valid... except he has no experience of other families which are - perhaps all of them - a million times worse. And that’s how we get someone who lives in the most creative place on earth, with the best economic outcomes that are the envy of the world, the most vibrant and successful state in the union by almost any objective measure - someone like that, saying “oh, 3rd world!”... LOL! You. Have. No. Idea. You have no comparison. There are objective numbers. Those fabulous numbers were achieved under the one party incompetent government and insane laws. Literally the whole world would say “give us the same incompetence and insane laws as long as we get the same result”.
You want to know how good or bad these civil servants are? How do we compare those governments? The idea was that each state is a laboratory where we all experiment. Do you know how to judge the competence? Here’s a hint “You shall know them by their fruit”. You want to know how successful a state government and their laws are? Look at outcomes. And economically, CA is TOP OF THE WORLD, bar none. Those are FACTS. It’s the most successful state, the fifth largest economy in the world, and moved up to that position under the one party rule of the last decade. With lowest crime since the 60’s, most progressive enviromental policies and opennes to minorities of every kind. Thems the facts. And then, we have “feelings” - with nothing to back them up.
[...]but in my career, I have dealt with both entities on a variety or projects
and situations and never have I found a more corrupt, inept, tyrannical and hubris filled group of people in my life.
That right there says it all. You have no single clue. You have dealt with no other government officials anywhere else in the world, so this is how you see it. You know - respectfully - NOTHING. You have zero ground of comparison, so you see “the most corrupt, inept, tyrannical, hubris filled” IN YOUR LIFE. Oh, yeah, your life - filled with what experiences outside of those interactions? I have dealt with officials all over the world - as I said, even in so called model countries (Scandinavia) - and if all I experienced was those folks I too would say they are “the most x, y, z”, because I’d have no comparison. Here’s a bitter truth. 95% of all humans are “inept”. This is true of lawyers and doctors and shoemakers. Ever work for any company? You’ll always hear “these guys are the worst!”... which is true only until they work for another company. Same with countries. So the government of Bangladesh is less corrupt? To you yes, because you never dealt with them, so to you Sacramento is “the worst” you experienced in your life. So how do we know objectively the true best and worst companies and governments? By their outcomes. CA is on top. Apple is on top. Alabama is not. Sears is not. But if all you know is Apple - even if it’s the top objectively by the numbers, you might say “the worst BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE (which is zero)” and then you get to Sears and oops. CA is “the worst” governed... until you get to the results.
What is true is the homeless situation - it’s bad all over, especially in warm California where the homeless from all over the country come to live. We have wild fires and effects of climate change. We have challenges. But facts remain facts no matter how much we “think” this or that - bias is bias, but the facts are the facts. Oh well.
[...] progrssively worse with a huge acceleration in decay over the past decade in particular
Uglier, more polluted, more homeless, more crime, more gangs, more rampant drug dealing and use[...]
We all have our perceptions and feelings and biases. Which is why I always very boringly try to bring in statistics and objective facts. You say “more crime” particularly over the last decade. That’s your feeling and perception. Now for the facts - here are crime stats per capita since 1960:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm
Scroll down to per 100,000 people. Highest rate for murder was 41 years ago, 1980. Since then, it’s been mostly coming down, and really collapsing since about 1996, or 25 years ago. And it has *especially* gone down during the last decade (the time you said was particularly bad), from 2010, and reached the lowest level in 2019 (no data for 2020 yet) - i.e. pre-COVID time, to levels that were lowest since 1964(!!!). Already by 1965 (when you were still a kid! Golden times for the Golden State!) the rate of murder was higher than 2019. Robbery in 2019 was lower than at any time since 1966, and in the last decade since 2010 (which you think was so bad) lower than any other decade except the 60’s. Assault since 2010 (the bad decade according to you), again lowest since the 60’s. Here’s a good one - burglary - the decade since 2010 (the particularly bad decade according to you) has THE LOWEST RATES ON RECORD - even lower than the 60’s. Larceny-theft - same story, since 2010 LOWEST RATES ON RECORD even lower than the 60’s. Vehicle theft - since 2010 so low, it’s only comparable to the 60’s. Violent since 2010, only lower in the 60’s.
So much for perception vs reality on crime, and particularly in the last decade. And hate to break it to you, but gangs in LA have existed since the 30’s long before, during and after your Golden years of pure California - and in fact, over the past decade the number of gang crimes have gone down drastically. More polluted? Hate to break it to you, but California was much more polluted back in the “Golden Years”, than today, and in fact, the CA government (especially when run by those you call insane) was a pioneer in air quality control and is a leader in that field so far ahead that the federal government has tried to sabotage us. We are far less polluted today than in those mythical golden years that gave us Erin Brokovich and countless “insane” activist who gave us cleaner air, water and cleanup sites and expanded national and state parks.
And so on. We have feelings and perceptions, and then there are facts. So it goes. Of course, we know that certain rhetoric comes from certain places, when folks can’t accomodate change, especially when we’re not familiar with it - that’s when you get patently false narratives like the laws supposedly passed that, as you put it, “insane laws that favor non-citizens”... that is nativism with no grounding in facts, but fear and hatred and demonization of “the other”. I’d like to know which laws favor the boogeyman non-citizen over the citizen, a favorite talking point we all know from bitter history the world over and the wars that had to be fought against those who trade in such propaganda.
Since California has become a single party rule state with one party holding, realistically ALL of the power to conceive, make and pass any "law" that the single party in power rules
the state has gone way downhill. California worked orders better when we actually had a two party system of checks and balances. I am not a member of either party but things here were MUCH better overall, statewide when you had
one party keeping the other party in check, regardless of which party held majority vote. But those days are over and will never return, that is why in my opinion, California has devolved into the "paradise" that it has become.
It’s funny that you trot out your having lived here and your memory of how California was and is, and yet you manage to get it 180 degrees wrong. Like in the “opposite” is the truth. In fact, it’s ironic because I agree with you that two parties are better than one, and one party rule usually leads to abuses over time. But, much to my surprise that’s not how it’s worked out SO FAR - the future may yet show us the folly of one party rule, but well, facts are facts and history is history SO FAR. So now for a reality check. Since one party has gotten into power - strike that, since one party WAS VOTED into power by CITIZENS exercising their rights, over the last decade, California has made tremendous progress economically - in fact it was an unparralelled boom I keep reminding folks of. But also - and this is the massive irony of it all - when power was divided in CA we had massive budgetary gridlock and terrible finances because everything was getting blocked (remind anyone of Washington over the past 15 years?) by terrible partisan politics. But once one party dominated - the budget became massively better, the finances recovered remarkably under Brown and Newsome, and we even established a rainy day fund (of course COVID is a disaster, so...). So, mister “I was here”, your memory seems a bit faulty - I too was here for all that drama and I well remember the horrible gridlock and terrible deficits and the state going broke under the supposed “checks and balances” which translated into “partisan warfare”. Because you see, the lesson is, that two parties are better than one, only if both parties are sane, but once a party gets taken over by loons, well, nobody is better off.
Which brings me to the rest of your complaints about the terrible corrupt and incompetent government in CA and your experiences. This is where wider experience comes in handy. If all you know is one state, your have zero perspective. I’ve lived in countries that are regarded as the models of good governance and... let me tell you, “stupidity” and incompetent civil servants are ALL OVER THE PLACE. That’s what you are missing. It’s like the rich kid who only knows his own family and he’s really bent out of shape about how unfair his dad was when he didn’t give him his hot lunch - yeah, the complaint is valid... except he has no experience of other families which are - perhaps all of them - a million times worse. And that’s how we get someone who lives in the most creative place on earth, with the best economic outcomes that are the envy of the world, the most vibrant and successful state in the union by almost any objective measure - someone like that, saying “oh, 3rd world!”... LOL! You. Have. No. Idea. You have no comparison. There are objective numbers. Those fabulous numbers were achieved under the one party incompetent government and insane laws. Literally the whole world would say “give us the same incompetence and insane laws as long as we get the same result”.
You want to know how good or bad these civil servants are? How do we compare those governments? The idea was that each state is a laboratory where we all experiment. Do you know how to judge the competence? Here’s a hint “You shall know them by their fruit”. You want to know how successful a state government and their laws are? Look at outcomes. And economically, CA is TOP OF THE WORLD, bar none. Those are FACTS. It’s the most successful state, the fifth largest economy in the world, and moved up to that position under the one party rule of the last decade. With lowest crime since the 60’s, most progressive enviromental policies and opennes to minorities of every kind. Thems the facts. And then, we have “feelings” - with nothing to back them up.
[...]but in my career, I have dealt with both entities on a variety or projects
and situations and never have I found a more corrupt, inept, tyrannical and hubris filled group of people in my life.
That right there says it all. You have no single clue. You have dealt with no other government officials anywhere else in the world, so this is how you see it. You know - respectfully - NOTHING. You have zero ground of comparison, so you see “the most corrupt, inept, tyrannical, hubris filled” IN YOUR LIFE. Oh, yeah, your life - filled with what experiences outside of those interactions? I have dealt with officials all over the world - as I said, even in so called model countries (Scandinavia) - and if all I experienced was those folks I too would say they are “the most x, y, z”, because I’d have no comparison. Here’s a bitter truth. 95% of all humans are “inept”. This is true of lawyers and doctors and shoemakers. Ever work for any company? You’ll always hear “these guys are the worst!”... which is true only until they work for another company. Same with countries. So the government of Bangladesh is less corrupt? To you yes, because you never dealt with them, so to you Sacramento is “the worst” you experienced in your life. So how do we know objectively the true best and worst companies and governments? By their outcomes. CA is on top. Apple is on top. Alabama is not. Sears is not. But if all you know is Apple - even if it’s the top objectively by the numbers, you might say “the worst BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE (which is zero)” and then you get to Sears and oops. CA is “the worst” governed... until you get to the results.
What is true is the homeless situation - it’s bad all over, especially in warm California where the homeless from all over the country come to live. We have wild fires and effects of climate change. We have challenges. But facts remain facts no matter how much we “think” this or that - bias is bias, but the facts are the facts. Oh well.
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Well c'mon now Drift, I agree with everything you say, but much of what you're describing is metropolitan California. I left that craphole called Los Angeles over 30 years ago. I can't imagine what Los Angeles is like now. But much of California is still a paradise, including where I live. At times the wife and I discussed moving when we were wondering about our financial future. We could never come up with a place we would rather live but for one reason; the weather. It would be a very sad day when I felt I had to leave this weather for somewhere else. Today I was outside in a sweatshirt (it gets cold where I live, 50 degrees, brrrr! Arctic blast), looking at my green grass, the sunshine, watching the birds and squirrels, putting out seeds and nuts for them. I have peace and tranquility on my little 2 acre plot of wonderfulness. The redwoods I planted 22 years ago tower above us. It's all cows and grapevines here. The neighbors are quiet. I couldn't ask for more. So it's not all drugs, crowds, pollution, and traffic.
The funny thing is, when I first drove to Los Angeles from Illinois, during a rest stop on the road, I talked with a family who was driving back to the Midwest after a vacation. They were telling me what craphole Los Angeles was and how they couldn't wait to get back home. It was 1977.
The funny thing is, when I first drove to Los Angeles from Illinois, during a rest stop on the road, I talked with a family who was driving back to the Midwest after a vacation. They were telling me what craphole Los Angeles was and how they couldn't wait to get back home. It was 1977.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Most cities are going to be expensive to live in the city. If you don't like living in a small apartment in the city, live outside of the city in a larger place. My family lives 45 minutes north of San Diego in a very nice house, 4400 sq ft. for $800k when purchased four years ago (now valued around one million). For that square footage, it's not much more per square foot than their last house in Clearwater, FL was, which was 3300 square feet for $550k (now $615k). Now sure, if you live closer to San Diego like my sister does who pays as much per month to live with three roommates for a similar house that I paid a similar amount of rent for to live alone in in Georgia, then you'll have to put up with the higher prices. But in my parents' case, they get the nice weather and scenery of California while also having a nice house and property, and they quite like it there. As for me, I enjoy my even larger house in Atlanta which is half the cost of theirs. I'll personally take a nice house over pretty scenery and weather, but that's because I tend to spend more of my time in my house than in nature. Georgia does have some nice scenery, though, so I'm not complaining.
vertigoanton
Active member
Man, this and the "diversity hire" thread. Hopefully a new camera gets announced so this forum can go back to arguing about that!
After having a lengthy argument with a friend this weekend over COVID-19 and vaccination, I’ve again had to think about facts vs perception. Funnily enough we also discussed AB-5 which exercises him greatly. I actually found it harder but less frustrating to argue over AB-5, because with AB-5 there is a lot more theoretical discussion and projetion and speculation - there are fewer facts to discuss and so it becomes a pure case of bias and personality - in that way it’s harder, because you have fewer facts to back up your argument. But also less frustrating because you recognize that it’s just speculation, and even if you believe your speculation is right, since you can’t prove it, well, it’s not as frustrating, you just “agree to disagree”.
But arguing over something where there are already many facts (COVID-19 and vaccines), is much more frastrating. Because what do you do, when facts just don’t matter to someone and they just cite their perception or anecdotal experience and completely dismiss your carefully researched facts? That’s when it gets frustrating, because I don’t want to argue my emotion or perception vs his, I want to present facts! Once facts are off the table, what do you have left but shouting? You can’t even agree to disagree, I mean, how can you? “2+2=4” “no it doesn’t, 2+2=5!” ” “OK, here’s the proof that 2+2=4”, “no, it doesn’t, one time I was buying oranges and...” I mean, do you say at that point, “agree to disagree”?
And as we’ve seen from recent times people will really believe the most outlandish things, and there’s no way to reach them with any fact-based argument. It’s always been so. People’s perceptions can become so distorted that a guy can literally look at his pecker and say “it’s missing! It’s been stolen!” and fully believe it:
Koro
You’ll have tons of people suddenly accusing someone of having stolen their pecker and they go on to lynch that person:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1274235.stm
What do you do with that? How do you argue “facts” with that - saying “just look between your legs” won’t cut it, because they literally can’t see it even if they’re staring at it.
Can you imagine then arguing with someone and bringing facts about California - or anything else - which may feel way more abstract, and being surprised that they don’t care about facts? Of course not. But how do you argue with someone if facts are off the table, because they’ve got their perceptions and “feelings”. They “feel” crime has gone crazy in CA over the past 10 years - statistics show the exact opposite, it’s some of the lowest it’s ever been in recorded history of the region, but it doesn’t matter - feelings rule, and then anecdotes - my car was vandalized, crime is crazy in CA. What do you do? Can’t win. If folks can’t see their own pecker, how are you going to tell them abstract economic facts or crime or environmental or anything else?
And it’s even worse when it comes to “government quality” - how can you convince anyone? I say “outcomes” - if the economy is #1, if the population size is #1 (people are free to leave), if desirability of RE is #1 and so on, you’d think it’s a slam dunk that you can’t get those results with bad government, especially over a decade or more when those trends were established under that government. But guess what, facts don’t matter, outcomes don’t matter, perception is all and everything.
Like in the example I gave, facts are the f.ex. CA is on top and Apple is on top - those outcomes should be determinative... but really are not when it comes to perception. Here’s one example from Forbes magazine (hardly a left-wing publication):
World’s Most Admired Companies 2021
So, for the 14th year in a row, Apple comes out on the very top of the most admired companies. But what does that mean? Why do we need such a measure? Isn’t just having the numbers enough? Outcomes - that’s what should count! Not “admired” - because that’s subjective.
And that’s how it goes. Apple is the most admired company in the whole world, it also happens to be in California and even though all the numbers and facts are out there for all to see, ultimately in people’s brains, what matters is not that, but a feeling - like “admired”. Nobody asks how come the most admired company chooses to stay in CA if it’s supposedly such a terribly governed state with insane laws. Because logic is not what it’s all about - it’s about feelings and subjective perceptions.
Like when someone (as in this thread) was laughing about a tiny size house being so expensive, so laughably expensive, when you can get cheap houses in their neck of the woods. It’s a form of economic illiteracy. It’s not stopping to think WHY real estate can have different costs for the same size. It’s like the most basic things - it’s as if they never heard, or don’t remember the #1 most important rule in RE “location, location, location”. So they see it’s expensive in that location, and they laugh, because they think it’s unjustified, not realizing that location is the whole point of it - yes, it is expensive THERE, and that’s completely understandable. And expensive goods indicated desirability. And desirability is not present in a region that’s badly governed. And people don’t stay in badly governed places. And people vote governments in and vote them out. If it’s bad - as was with the previous system of massive budget deficits and obstruction and constantly being broke - they vote those guys out, and vote in the guys who deliver. And CA’s government system has delivered and voters approve - FREELY VOTING. And that’s how AB-5 also gets handled - by voters, as I’ve maintained from day one of these threads - it will all come out in the wash.
But facts, those don’t matter to those who can’t see their own peckers.
But arguing over something where there are already many facts (COVID-19 and vaccines), is much more frastrating. Because what do you do, when facts just don’t matter to someone and they just cite their perception or anecdotal experience and completely dismiss your carefully researched facts? That’s when it gets frustrating, because I don’t want to argue my emotion or perception vs his, I want to present facts! Once facts are off the table, what do you have left but shouting? You can’t even agree to disagree, I mean, how can you? “2+2=4” “no it doesn’t, 2+2=5!” ” “OK, here’s the proof that 2+2=4”, “no, it doesn’t, one time I was buying oranges and...” I mean, do you say at that point, “agree to disagree”?
And as we’ve seen from recent times people will really believe the most outlandish things, and there’s no way to reach them with any fact-based argument. It’s always been so. People’s perceptions can become so distorted that a guy can literally look at his pecker and say “it’s missing! It’s been stolen!” and fully believe it:
Koro
You’ll have tons of people suddenly accusing someone of having stolen their pecker and they go on to lynch that person:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1274235.stm
What do you do with that? How do you argue “facts” with that - saying “just look between your legs” won’t cut it, because they literally can’t see it even if they’re staring at it.
Can you imagine then arguing with someone and bringing facts about California - or anything else - which may feel way more abstract, and being surprised that they don’t care about facts? Of course not. But how do you argue with someone if facts are off the table, because they’ve got their perceptions and “feelings”. They “feel” crime has gone crazy in CA over the past 10 years - statistics show the exact opposite, it’s some of the lowest it’s ever been in recorded history of the region, but it doesn’t matter - feelings rule, and then anecdotes - my car was vandalized, crime is crazy in CA. What do you do? Can’t win. If folks can’t see their own pecker, how are you going to tell them abstract economic facts or crime or environmental or anything else?
And it’s even worse when it comes to “government quality” - how can you convince anyone? I say “outcomes” - if the economy is #1, if the population size is #1 (people are free to leave), if desirability of RE is #1 and so on, you’d think it’s a slam dunk that you can’t get those results with bad government, especially over a decade or more when those trends were established under that government. But guess what, facts don’t matter, outcomes don’t matter, perception is all and everything.
Like in the example I gave, facts are the f.ex. CA is on top and Apple is on top - those outcomes should be determinative... but really are not when it comes to perception. Here’s one example from Forbes magazine (hardly a left-wing publication):
World’s Most Admired Companies 2021
So, for the 14th year in a row, Apple comes out on the very top of the most admired companies. But what does that mean? Why do we need such a measure? Isn’t just having the numbers enough? Outcomes - that’s what should count! Not “admired” - because that’s subjective.
And that’s how it goes. Apple is the most admired company in the whole world, it also happens to be in California and even though all the numbers and facts are out there for all to see, ultimately in people’s brains, what matters is not that, but a feeling - like “admired”. Nobody asks how come the most admired company chooses to stay in CA if it’s supposedly such a terribly governed state with insane laws. Because logic is not what it’s all about - it’s about feelings and subjective perceptions.
Like when someone (as in this thread) was laughing about a tiny size house being so expensive, so laughably expensive, when you can get cheap houses in their neck of the woods. It’s a form of economic illiteracy. It’s not stopping to think WHY real estate can have different costs for the same size. It’s like the most basic things - it’s as if they never heard, or don’t remember the #1 most important rule in RE “location, location, location”. So they see it’s expensive in that location, and they laugh, because they think it’s unjustified, not realizing that location is the whole point of it - yes, it is expensive THERE, and that’s completely understandable. And expensive goods indicated desirability. And desirability is not present in a region that’s badly governed. And people don’t stay in badly governed places. And people vote governments in and vote them out. If it’s bad - as was with the previous system of massive budget deficits and obstruction and constantly being broke - they vote those guys out, and vote in the guys who deliver. And CA’s government system has delivered and voters approve - FREELY VOTING. And that’s how AB-5 also gets handled - by voters, as I’ve maintained from day one of these threads - it will all come out in the wash.
But facts, those don’t matter to those who can’t see their own peckers.