C500 MKII Leaked on Canon Rumors

[Mitch Gross]

How many ASC members actually shoot studio jobs with a camera they own and rent to the studio? I'd bet 0%.

(I'm sure many own a personal camera)

You would be wrong.

When the ALEXA was first introduced I visited the sets of many network TV series to help the DPs (most ASC) with the transition. They would purchase the cameras and then subrent them to the production through the rental house. In the first two years Panavision didn't buy any ALEXAs but they had more than 100 working shows. They were all owned by the DPs, subbing through Panavision. Panavision made its money renting out everything else to the productions: lenses, monitors, tripods, etc.

 

[JPNola]

I guess if you still do jobs at labor rate. Most of my income comes from gear rental, so I turn down labor rate only jobs. If they want a 5D or C100, I'm sure there's other people out there who will do it. If they want me, the choice is C300 or Amira.

If you were hired to DP a narrative film and the Director decided that for a flashback sequence he wants it shot on 16mm film, you'd refuse to work with anything but the digital video cameras that you own? You limit yourself creatively, as a DP, to only the tools you happen to own?

As an owner / Op myself, I get that it is more lucrative to get a rental in addition to the DP rate. But I am still open to working with cameras other than the cameras that I own. "Never say never", as the saying goes. Part of being an artist, part of being a creative person, is to be open to anything and not self-impose limitation. Besides, working with cameras I do not own allows me to learn more about cameras I might want to own. One can only learn so much about a camera from specs and from brief camera tests.

Getting back to the C500 MkII, I suspect that Sony will come in with a price for the Fx9 well below that of the C500 Mk II and in that, even if the Fx9 lacks some features of the C500 MkII, the Fx9 will out-sell the C500 MkII.

 

[Guest]

If you were hired to DP a narrative film and the Director decided that for a flashback sequence he wants it shot on 16mm film, you'd refuse to work with anything but the digital video cameras that you own? You limit yourself creatively, as a DP, to only the tools you happen to own?

As an owner / Op myself, I get that it is more lucrative to get a rental in addition to the DP rate. But I am still open to working with cameras other than the cameras that I own. "Never say never", as the saying goes. Part of being an artist, part of being a creative person, is to be open to anything and not self-impose limitation. Besides, working with cameras I do not own allows me to learn more about cameras I might want to own. One can only learn so much about a camera from specs and from brief camera tests.

I really appreciate the point you brought up here. It is something we are constantly faced with.

 

[morgan_moore]

I was on a production with FS7s. Prodco did a rental deal for 5, mine sat at home.

 

[Run&Gun]

I think you got downvoted because you make it sound like being paid for labor alone is for chumps who haven't gotten to your level yet. Ironically I think of the very high end as not even bothering to own gear they use for the biggest jobs. How many ASC members actually shoot studio jobs with a camera they own and rent to the studio? I'd bet 0%.

(I'm sure many own a personal camera)

I just went and picked up one of my cameras from a friend who rented it for a multi-cam yesterday. Met him over at a studio in-town. He was shooting a commercial/promo. He's ASC & SOC and was using all of his gear.

 

[JPNola]

Rumor-mill update:




Fx9 listed as €9,995.00 "with trade in" of Fs7. Hard to know from that what the price will be without the trade-in. I still suspect that Sony will have it priced just below the price of the C500 MkII. Unlike the C500 MkII the Fx9 will, I suspect, come with a full-size VF loupe as did the Fs7. Not likely anything as nice as the $6,000 accessory VF-loupe for the C500 MkII. But it will at least come standard and not at additional $.

One feature of the C500 MkII that I hope the Fx9 has as well is that the cable to the LCD screen can be disconnected from the LCD. That allows for simply replacing the cable should the cable go bad. Not that the Fs7 VF cables have demonstrated any issues with wear and tear. If nothing else it is just nice to be able to disconnect the VF cable when breaking down the camera for storing in a tight-fitting case.

Someone on the Sonyalpharumors forum said that it appears that the Fx9 will be more of an F5 MkII than an Fs7 MkIII in terms of pricing and the market the Fx9 is aimed at. I agree with that. A price above $14k, which it looks it will be, is aimed more at the F5 / F55 market than the Fs7 market segment. I don't foresee many "you tubers" or semi-pros shelling out near $20K for a camera, which is fine by me.


https://ebdn-partners.eu/shop.html#!/sony-pxw-fx9-program/products/sony-pxw-fx9-body-w-sony-pmw-fs7mkii-trade-in

 

[Run&Gun]

I guess if you still do jobs at labor rate. Most of my income comes from gear rental, so I turn down labor rate only jobs. If they want a 5D or C100, I'm sure there's other people out there who will do it. If they want me, the choice is C300 or Amira.

If you were hired to DP a narrative film and the Director decided that for a flashback sequence he wants it shot on 16mm film, you'd refuse to work with anything but the digital video cameras that you own? You limit yourself creatively, as a DP, to only the tools you happen to own?

As an owner / Op myself, I get that it is more lucrative to get a rental in addition to the DP rate. But I am still open to working with cameras other than the cameras that I own. "Never say never", as the saying goes. Part of being an artist, part of being a creative person, is to be open to anything and not self-impose limitation. Besides, working with cameras I do not own allows me to learn more about cameras I might want to own. One can only learn so much about a camera from specs and from brief camera tests.

Getting back to the C500 MkII, I suspect that Sony will come in with a price for the Fx9 well below that of the C500 Mk II and in that, even if the Fx9 lacks some features of the C500 MkII, the Fx9 will out-sell the C500 MkII.

There was a point in time when I only shot with my gear, partly because of the money and partly because I was so busy that I was regularly turning work down, because I truly needed a day or two off during the week and if I was going to torture myself with work when I should be resting, it was going to be worth it financially. But then the market changed. It's not like it was 10 years ago. And it does limit who you can work with. I really only have two clients that I shoot for without gear and it's actually a mix of my gear and their gear. I actually enjoy some of the stuff I do, even though it's not with my gear, because one of them is a production company and they have some good cameras and lenses and a lot of the shoots only end up being a few hours for a full day. Plus they pay very quickly. And since I started shooting for them, it's bringing in an extra $20K or so a year. Maybe not a huge sum in this world when I've had single invoices for only myself & my gear eclipse that, but ask the average person on the street what they'd do to make that much extra a year. I bet you'd get a few ask you who they needed to kill.

Even if the market rebounded and we all went back to working 200+ days a year, I'd keep shooting for them when I could if they called, because I like them and a lot of the stuff I do for them.

 

[Fahnon]

You would be wrong.

When the ALEXA was first introduced I visited the sets of many network TV series to help the DPs (most ASC) with the transition. They would purchase the cameras and then subrent them to the production through the rental house. In the first two years Panavision didn't buy any ALEXAs but they had more than 100 working shows. They were all owned by the DPs, subbing through Panavision. Panavision made its money renting out everything else to the productions: lenses, monitors, tripods, etc.

I just went and picked up one of my cameras from a friend who rented it for a multi-cam yesterday. Met him over at a studio in-town. He was shooting a commercial/promo. He's ASC & SOC and was using all of his gear.

Well I stand corrected. I guess it's time to take out a loan....

 

[dmitrizigany]

Rumor-mill update:
Fx9 listed as €9,995.00 "with trade in" of Fs7.

I strongly suspect they are just using “placeholder” numbers, that will be adjusted as soon as Sony announce the price... that reseller seems to have made it their modus operandi to post unannounced cameras to drive traffic to their site. Have seen them do it on multiple occasions.
But the FS7mkII is around €7700 (+vat) now it seems. So between €9995 and €11995 + vat is my guess/hope that the FX7 will cost.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

If you were hired to DP a narrative film and the Director decided that for a flashback sequence he wants it shot on 16mm film, you'd refuse to work with anything but the digital video cameras that you own? You limit yourself creatively, as a DP, to only the tools you happen to own?

As an owner / Op myself, I get that it is more lucrative to get a rental in addition to the DP rate. But I am still open to working with cameras other than the cameras that I own. "Never say never", as the saying goes. Part of being an artist, part of being a creative person, is to be open to anything and not self-impose limitation. Besides, working with cameras I do not own allows me to learn more about cameras I might want to own. One can only learn so much about a camera from specs and from brief camera tests.

Getting back to the C500 MkII, I suspect that Sony will come in with a price for the Fx9 well below that of the C500 Mk II and in that, even if the Fx9 lacks some features of the C500 MkII, the Fx9 will out-sell the C500 MkII.

Well if the director decided for a flashback scene to be shot on 16mm, then the implication is they're still renting my camera for the overall production, so no loss to me there. Sure, use the best tool for the job assuming it doesn't mean losing a considerable amount of money by doing the job. A common scenario though like Bill suggested is when the owner/op has a better camera suited for the job, but the producer wishes to save money by using their lower quality camera.

Considering the cameras Bill and I own, it's not going to be a likely scenario where a producer will say they have a better camera for me to use on their production. What's better than an Amira? A Mini? Maybe in some cases. An Alexa 65? I don't get offered to work with that. Better lenses, perhaps, yeah, because my lenses are mid-range lenses and not high end Leicas, Cookes, etc. But perhaps if the shoot has the budget for those level of lenses, then they could afford my base rate regardless. Then again, I also don't get offers for shoots that are renting a $250k lens package. More often it's either a Red or FS7, two cameras which I dislike, and their budgets are typically lower than Arri and Canon shoots anyway, and working with a camera I dislike at a low rate is typically not worth it to me. I've already used those cameras so it's not like I've just read specs about them online.

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant by I don't work at labor only, because I do get requests here and there, and I don't flat out turn them down. I basically say, "This is my starting rate with or without gear." So, if a project can afford my with gear rate, but wants to use their own gear, then I'll do the job with their gear. Typically they don't go for that, because they'd feel like they're wasting money, but sometimes they do if the budget for a higher labor rate is there. There was one client I recall from some months back that had their own Amira, so they hired me at my base package rate and I ended up bringing lights, a tripod, Steadicam, and other odds and ends, while still making my starting package rate but using their camera. I didn't make as much money as if they would have rented my Amira, but I was making enough to be happy, and I got to work with a camera I like.

As Run&Gun said, if you're busy enough, then you'd actually loose money by taking labor only jobs. I get like 40 inquiries a month and obviously there are only 30 days in a month, so I can turn down jobs that would likely result in me loosing money, or that would interfere with a healthy work/life balance. My labor rate is about 40% of my starting rate with gear, and about 15%-25% of my overall rate when clients are renting my higher end gear such as an Arri or multiple Arris, so labor only isn't that financially beneficial to me if it means I may have to turn down a job with gear that pays five times as much for the same amount of work.

Yeah, a lot of high end DPs in the commercial and narrative world don't have their own gear, but they also charge much higher labor rates than the typical owner/operator of corporate, doc, and event shoots, so for the latter which is mostly what I fall into, oftentimes the majority of income comes from gear rental which makes labor only jobs less appealing.

 

[DLD]

Guess who?

How many guesses do I get and is one of them fish?

(too obscure of a reference?)

PS. Returning to the exclusivity of the sponsors on premises - when the Indianapolis Speedway switched from Coke to Pepsi, it specifically mentioned that only Pepsi products (including Mountain Dew and Aquafina) will be sold at the concession stands. And the Canon gear will be provided free of charge.

 

[rob norton]

Powering accessories is the one issue that'll need some definite investigation. The camera only has one proprietary 'video' out port, which can either be used with the included 720p touchscreen or the 1080p EVF from the C700 (neither has any kind of image/power passthrough, so you can only run one at a time).

So using the camera with BPA batteries you could only do the most streamlined of setups (camera + EVF or camera + touchscreen) without any additional accessories, or you'll need accessories (like external monitors) that have their own battery plates.

SWIT do make BPA dummy batteries, that include a single DTAP port and a DTAP to DC power cable that includes DTAP passthrough (so you draw power from a second DTAP cable that feeds into the camera-to-DTAP cable... which on the whole sounds a little messy (albeit workable if all you need to do is power a single teradek, or onboard monitor): https://digitalfilmmaker.net/swit-battery-kit-canon-c200-c300-mark-ii/

On the whole I suspect the BPA battery slot has been included primarily with gimbal use in mind (a compact, low-profile way to power the camera when it's gimbalised and space/weight is at a premium). Hopefully, Canon will introduce some updated BPA models that include a DTAP port (or better yet, two) - this would help you to keep the camera as light as possible for minimalist camera builds.

For more conventional production, you'll have to add a v-mount/ab-mount plate or the extension module. For my money the EU-V2 extension module is a little too light on power outputs (one DTAP, one 24v 2amp output). Assuming your batteries have DTAP ports of their own, that still only gives you direct ports for three accessories (and having to add DTAP splitters is added gack that nobody wants). So because of this, and the because the module doesn't really offer anything else that I'd need often, I'd opt for a straight battery plate instead. Which will take up less space overall, and with a beefy unit like the Wooden Camera 'Pro' plates, you get 3 DTAPs in addition to whatever's on your battery itself.

Hopefully someone builds an clean v-mount battery plate module, that includes at least three DTAPs, can sit flush with the back of the camera, and can power the camera directly (without having to feed a DTAP cable into the camera's DC in).

A BP style Core SWX battery that communicates with the camera (assuming this means powers the camera?) and has a DTAP/usb
- https://www.instagram.com/p/B2O7jlzncOw/
- https://www.coreswx.com/store.coreswx/product/nano-c98/

Before this, swit and core had batteries that were dumb connections to the contacts so it was necessary to have a cable going into the DC IN.

I also posted in the c200 section but thought I'd share here too. Might not solve all of your problems but should be very handy in certain situations. I'll definitely be buying for my c200.

 

[Grug]

A BP style Core SWX battery that communicates with the camera (assuming this means powers the camera?) and has a DTAP/usb
- https://www.instagram.com/p/B2O7jlzncOw/
- https://www.coreswx.com/store.coreswx/product/nano-c98/

Before this, swit and core had batteries that were dumb connections to the contacts so it was necessary to have a cable going into the DC IN.

I also posted in the c200 section but thought I'd share here too. Might not solve all of your problems but should be very handy in certain situations. I'll definitely be buying for my c200.

Excellent, that’s certainly a starting point. Thanks Rob.

Now we just need to pester them with emails to get them to make a version where they swap out the USB port for a second DTAP.

 

[bill totolo]

... I get like 40 inquiries a month...

Holy moly, Eric, it's time for you to launch a tutorial series on how to run a video business.

BTW, I moved the Amira on. For some reason I got several inquiries at once last month and felt money-in-hand was too tempting to resist.
I also sold my C300. Kinda nice to be camera free at the moment, although I had to sub-rent someone else's kit last week and that didn't sit well with me.

 

[Liam Hall]

Kinda nice to be camera free at the moment, although I had to sub-rent someone else's kit last week and that didn't sit well with me.

The thought of renting another DoPs kit brings me out in a cold chill.

 

[NorBro]

Look at this one...for $19K you can have a used C700 with an EVF and the OU-700. Maybe less with a best offer.

The viewfinder and the operation unit are $8400 alone.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-...t-with-EVF-and-OU-700-Remote-LCD/202754228267

 

[undero]

My wishlist for c500ii, just a fantasy

• Canon or 3rd party extension unit/plate just for power options with slimmer profile than Canon unit 2. One doesn't always need extra audio connections and genlock, just plain v-lock battery adapter with power distribution, multiple d-tap ports out etc.
• Second Canon lcd/evf connector to use touch lcd and the (expensive but really good!) Canon OLED evf at the same time. This second connection could have been thrown in the extension unit 2 easily, why not Canon?
• SDI output or two on the extenension unit 2. The fact that there is none was probably to protect c700FF (it has 4 SDI outs, all with independently configurable video output settings, overlays and LUTs!)
• EF lock mount as standard. Now its quite hefty priced.. I wonder why anyone would even want to use normal EF mount if lockable is possible. Canon, you greedy b***trds!

BTW, this just in. Some fresh footage from the camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgDU9tK4Dsg

 

[bill totolo]

Nice looking video.

 

[DLD]

Got this ad on FB from Adorama -

Trade-in your used Canon, Sony, or RED camcorder and receive up to 70% Credit of the resale value which can be applied toward your new Canon EOS C500 Mark II Full Frame Cinema Camera...

I actually clicked on the link but there was no further info, aside of a salesperson chat pop up.

 

[JPNola]

• EF lock mount as standard. Now its quite hefty priced.. I wonder why anyone would even want to use normal EF mount if lockable is possible.

Faster lens swaps when speed-shooting. That little bit of extra time required by the locking mount might mean missing some valuable content. Think fast-paced doc shooting, reality tv shooting, or BTS. Not only the speed issue but requiring two hands to swap lenses can be a pain when shooting solo and not having a place to set the camera down to swap lenses using both hands. For instance, if you are in a muddy area and you have no place dry to place the camera for performing a two-handed lens swap.

BTW, this just in. Some fresh footage from the camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgDU9tK4Dsg

That's actually a week old. I think we are now at the stage where the samples of footage will cease for the time being because the testers had to return the cameras. The short window they were given is likely over in most cases.