C300: C300mkii, FS7 or EVA1, what to choose?

Doug_EX

Doug_EX

Well-known member
Hi erveryone,

I am buying a new camera in 2018 and I moving to 4K just to be future proof for the next 4-5 years. No clients of mine need or are asking for 4k yet but a few asked if I was shooting in 4K. So, it's coming. I make corporate videos, documentaries and sometimes shoot for TV. My current camera is a C100 (and GH4 for timelapse, slowmo and 2nd camera when needed). I am hesitating between the EVA1, C300mkii and the FS7. Of course I already have EF lenses; Tokina 11-16, Sigma 18-35 art, Canon 24-105 and 70-200 F4IS. I really want a camera with Intra codec, that's why those are my choices. I don't care about RAW.
Don't know if I will need someday to shoot 60p in 4k, that's why the C300mkii is still on my list. 2k 444 is appealing to me but not mandatory.

There is one other thing. I am looking to move towards cine lenses because I am tired of manually focusing photo lenses and hate focus breathing. The thing is I don't know if I can justify the cost of a new camera and cine glass. I was looking at the FS7 and Fujinon MK lenses combo but it would cost me around 20k (canadian dollars).

Thanks in advance!
 
I have had the Fs7 since it was first released 3.5yrs ago and it has been a great camera. I've used 4K60p a lot for corporate stuff as clients as they seem to love slow mo and I like the flexibility 4K gives me when I can't control all of a situation. The Fs7MkII has a great variND feature which I have used before and it was fantastic but going from MKI to MKII didn't make financial sense for me. I've left freelance recently for a staff position and am currently gearing up a studio here in Toronto. I'm looking at getting the EVA1 because of the size, frame rates, better sensitivity, output options (output to sumo) and the studio currently has EF lenses. I really like the Panasonic colour but have never had issue with the FS7 shooting in Cine EI mode. I miss some features my Fs7 has but overall I think the EVA1 is a good choice.

I had debated the C200 at one point but its too limited in many of the areas I need. The C300II is a great camera and I have used it on a few shoots. Personally I have never liked the Canon tea kettle form but that is purely personal and it makes a great image. You have a tough choice because in the end all of these cameras are fantastic its just a matter of how they personally suit you and your workflow/client base. Its a great time to be alive making pretty pictures.
 
Doug_EX said:
There is one other thing. I am looking to move towards cine lenses because I am tired of manually focusing photo lenses and hate focus breathing. The thing is I don't know if I can justify the cost of a new camera and cine glass.
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If you don't know then no, don't make the switch.
 
All good cameras Doug. Is there any way you can rent or borrow any or all of them to try out in the field before buying? I've shot a lot with all three and all offer their own pluses and minuses. For me, quickly:

1. Canon C300 MKII
Pluses - Great color science, simple, easy menus like your C100, DPAF rules and makes my life better in so many ways, I've shot so much with it, I know the C300 MKII like the back of my hand. Clients, at least in the LA market, prefer this camera to the other two because it's just more popular, in LA at least and in my market segment. YMMV.
Minuses - No 4K 60p, I really like shooting it on my two current documentaries, rear mounted EVF, great for cradling but useless for shoulder mounted work YMMV Clamshell/cable and audio layout is idiotic, you really need the Zacuto handle, Clamshell mount so it doesn't flop and spin all over the place and you are stuck with those horrible, in the way, fragile A/V cables, hate them so much.

2. Sony FS7
Great resolution, frame rate and data rate options. Well known name and it's a commodity camera in a lot of markets, highly thought of in corporate and broadcast markets, more popular than C300 MKII in many markets. High native ISO can be handy. Decent lens choices too
Minuses - Media isn't cheap or common. For me, I hate the color science straight out of camera but the footage can be graded to look good as others have noted. Not good though if you often hand off footage to client's editors who may or may not know how to treat it. I've shot plenty of FS7 that ended up on TV that looked horrible as far as color, every time I see two of the pieces broadcast, I cringe inside. EVF/Loupe thing sucks. The menus are probably some of the worst, least intuitive of any popular camera. AF is a joke compared to DPAF but maybe that's not important to you, it is to me.

3. Panasonic EVA 1
Pluses - Oversampled imager is just like your C100, which shoots 4K and records it into 1080. Oversampling lends great detail, it's nice. A ton of possible frame rate, data rate and codec options. RAW with external, not as desirable for me as internal but you said you don't care about RAW so whatevs. Size and weight are really nice, it's tiny and light. EF and S35 is a combo that works for 98% of pros, almost all of the time. Hobbyists complain that it's not M43 but few pros want or shoot with M43 cameras other than GH5s as crash or gimbal cameras. You have an M43 camera so you know what's up with all of that anyway. Panasonic color science is pretty much almost as good as Canon IMHO. It's different but I like Panasonic color science in general. Lots of nice i/o and pro touches as far as options. Dual ISO is cool. Nice frame rate options. Prores RAW support looks like a great thing so far, that is the camera's ACE in the hole.
Minuses - Overall cost value equation - for me, I would immediately have to add $2,300.00 for a Gratical or Gratical Eye. I would also have to buy a little stash of v60 or V90 cards, which are currently really expensive, adding yet more cost but to be fair, you'll have to spend a lot on media for any of these three cameras although the Egodisk CFast 2.0 for the C300 MKII are cheap if you can live shooting non-approved by Canon cards. LCD screen is hard to see on anything exterior, not enough nits, all of the text on screen is microscopic to me. The LCD screen mounting system seems fragile to me. To some, the images the camera produces can look a bit digital, not bad but reminds of the REDs in a way. RED images can look amazing but comapred to Arri and even Canon, they look a bit too clean and digital to my eye in many instances. I saw the EVA 1 footage projected at the rollout and it didn't look too digital to me but a lot of people think it does. Guess that's subjective? I like the size and weight but once you add EVF, bigger battery, plates, levers, arms, grip extensions, you can easily turn your little EVA 1 into a heavy Franken rig whereas the FS7 is kind of already rigged a bit more to be less franken rigged? The C300 is set up great for cradling but add a VCT Pro baseplate, VCT 14, bigger battery, etc. and you end up in the same place. But you probably have to add the EVF to the EVA 1, no way around that for me.

As far as cinema glass, right now is kind of the era of great, low cost cinema and cinema-like (Canon CNe compact servos) but just keep in mind, almost no clients will pay extra for your fancy cinema glass unless they are high end and know and care. But your bread and butter and my bread and butter clients won't pay you an extra rate for cinema glass. So why buy it if it doesn't make you money? If you have the kinds of clients who will pay line item for it, go for it. If not, don't bother IMHO. Easy rent for those once in a while possible shoots where ciient might care or ask for better glass. None of mine do, even the documentary I shot two years ago that just premiered at SXSW, all shot with still lenses.
 
Thanks! Renting is not really an easy option for me. The closest rental place is at least 12 hours away. I mean, it's possible but it won't be cheap with shipping cost and all.
I already have EF lenses and 3 Panasonic batteries. So for the EVA, I would only need media and probably a loupe from Zacuto.
Some say they can't get good colours out of the FS7 and some say it's not an issue. Don't know...I have seen great images from the FS7 but never shot with it.
C300 is the most expensive of them all but would not need a loupe or a evf, but I would need media and extra batteries. Also, for now I don't need 4k 60p but who knows what are going to be my clients requirements in 2-3 years. I really want to keep my next camera for 4-5 years.
 
I've had the C300 MKII for almost two years now and love it. Puredrifting's points are all fair and there are things that could be improved for sure. Adding the Zacuto top handle has been essential for me, it makes packing/unpacking so much faster and versatile. Cfast is expensive but it carries over to other cameras so thats nice.

I actually don't shoot 4k on it very often, as the need isn't really there, even for broadcast (I'm in Toronto). The 12bit 444 codec is money, I find I keep coming back to it over and over. It holds such a nice image and scaling in isn't a problem at all because of the amount of data in the codec, it's almost as good as having the 4k file at half the file size.
 
The fs7 is the default choice - accepted sensible data rates a good balance of quality vs data load and once you have it set there are no real idiot flaws
Nice small things..
Hfr shutter angle sustained for example
Ability to record one mic at two levels
Ability to use a speed booster

So the others..?
Blasting af
And the dark horse Eva - which I think is interesting with some OK onboard codecs and a viable offboard raw option.

I've not really seen any reports of the Eva is actually nice to use - buttons in the right place or whatever?
 
Doug, I'm in the same boat as you, as I do similar work and own a C100, which I love, but looking towards 4K in the future. One thing I run into here in NYC (others can comment where they live) is the non-Canon/Sony bias from clients. I think if I could get a great deal on a used FS7 or C300MKII I would go for it, but buying a, respectively, 4 and 3 year old camera at retail price just doesn't make sense to me. If I were buying new today I would go for a C200 I think...
 
Well, the prices have drop in the last 3-4 years. C300mkii have drop a few thousands and FS7 is now 7000$.
For me, it doesn’t matter if the camera was release 3 years ago or last month. The important thing is that my next camera will answer my needs for next 4-5 years. The C200 does’t meet my needs bexause it lacks intra codecs that I want, and that, even it’s a much newer camera than it’s bigger brother.
 
Tough choice. If it were me, C300 MKII but that's just because I know it so well and I rely on DPAF so much. If I wasn't in the LA market and wanted to just get hired a lot, freelance, FS7, you can't fight the perception that the FS7 is the camera in the lower mid-level price range, regardless of what you think of it, the FS7 is the most popular, worldwide, of these three. If I was starting from scratch and didn't need to "sell" clients on the camera I was using, possibly the EVA 1, there's a lot to like about it. But I agree, in most markets, Sony or Canon will be a lot easier sell, Panasonic has been out of this popular price segment for a lot of years. Varicam has a good rep and GH5 is a name too, to a point, but probably most of your clients will not have heard of the EVA 1. My biggest corporate client lately, I am shooting on their in-house C300 MKIs, they are happy.

Tip for you too from someone who has been in your shoes. DO NOT buy a shiny new 4K camera until a decent multi-day project is booked that will pay you to shoot 4K! I had a C300 MKI and a C100 MKI, loved both. I had a few clients mention 4K, just like you and casually ask if I was shooting 4K. There is a difference between nosing around and coming straight out to you and saying, "We need you to shoot in 4K and we are willing to pay for it". If they're not, don't be a sucker. I sold both the C100 and the C300, bought the C200 last year and since then, exactly ONE client in 10 months has specifically requested 4K and most request me NOT to shoot 4k, they can't afford the room it takes on drives and their editing RAIDs, they don't have a 4K monitor and their clients (the studios and networks) are mostly not set up to work with 4K in their pipeline (marketing, publicity, home entertainment), they all want 1080. So take it from someone who spent the money for a new C200, a pile of CFast 2.0 cards, expensive Canon batteries, etc. and don't pull the trigger until a project either partly or totally pays for it. If it's just little one day gigs, rent, borrow, don't buy. I can say that from a business perspective, I regret selling my C100 and C300 MKI, they were both long paid for and making me profit with every shoot. I like my C200 but it's kind of dumb to have a 4K camera and always just be shooting 1080 on it. Don't jump the gun, be a smart business person, unlike me and many other DVXers with Gear Acquisition Syndrome. When it comes down to it, we all know that 4K and greater resolution is just a scam to get you to part with more money for more resolution that realistically few need.
 
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puredrifting said:
Tough choice. If it were me, C300 MKII but that's just because I know it so well and I rely on DPAF so much. If I wasn't in the LA market and wanted to just get hired a lot, freelance, FS7, you can't fight the perception that the FS7 is the camera in the lower mid-level price range, regardless of what you think of it, the FS7 is the most popular, worldwide, of these three. If I was starting from scratch and didn't need to "sell" clients on the camera I was using, possibly the EVA 1, there's a lot to like about it. But I agree, in most markets, Sony or Canon will be a lot easier sell, Panasonic has been out of this popular price segment for a lot of years. Varicam has a good rep and GH5 is a name too, to a point, but probably most of your clients will not have heard of the EVA 1. My biggest corporate client lately, I am shooting on their in-house C300 MKIs, they are happy.

Tip for you too from someone who has been in your shoes. DO NOT buy a shiny new 4K camera until a decent multi-day project is booked that will pay you to shoot 4K! I had a C300 MKI and a C100 MKI, loved both. I had a few clients mention 4K, just like you and casually ask if I was shooting 4K. There is a difference between nosing around and coming straight out to you and saying, "We need you to shoot in 4K and we are willing to pay for it". If they're not, don't be a sucker. I sold both the C100 and the C300, bought the C200 last year and since then, exactly ONE client in 10 months has specifically requested 4K and most request me NOT to shoot 4k, they can't afford the room it takes on drives and their editing RAIDs, they don't have a 4K monitor and their clients (the studios and networks) are mostly not set up to work with 4K in their pipeline (marketing, publicity, home entertainment), they all want 1080. So take it from someone who spent the money for a new C200, a pile of CFast 2.0 cards, expensive Canon batteries, etc. and don't pull the trigger until a project either partly or totally pays for it. If it's just little one day gigs, rent, borrow, don't buy. I can say that from a business perspective, I regret selling my C100 and C300 MKI, they were both long paid for and making me profit with every shoot. I like my C200 but it's kind of dumb to have a 4K camera and always just be shooting 1080 on it. Don't jump the gun, be a smart business person, unlike me and many other DVXers with Gear Acquisition Syndrome. When it comes down to it, we all know that 4K and greater resolution is just a scam to get you to part with more money for more resolution that realistically few need.
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Great advice. Some of the best I've gotten on this forum. I've had exactly ONE client ask specifically for 4K and the producer wound up renting a C300 MKII...
 
Puredrifting, great advice as always. Nothing beats experience. Always a pleasure hearing from you.
Of course I'm not tempted to buy a 4k camera just for the hype.Heck, I bought my C100 3 years after it was released. But I do want a camera that will answer my needs for at least 4 years. And my C100 would become a B cam, so it would still be used.
4k would be very useful to punch in during interviews. My finances will allow me to buy a new camera in 2018 so might as well be a camera that will not become obselete in 1-2 years.
My C100 produces wonderful images but it's lacking a few features; HFR, a proper articulated LCD, solid top handle, intra frame codec. Otherwise it's a good camera.
Not a easy decision.
 
Just hold on for as long as you can get away with your C100. Save your money. Remember the more you can pull your current equipment, the better are your returns. My C300 Mark1 still makes money and will continue to make money atleast till end of 2019.

If you personally want to shoot in some particular camera then rent for the event.

The camera market will be a bit more aggressive in the second/late-second half of the year with new launches.

Though some of you may not agree, the cinema lenses are now in a strange situation. Everyone is moving to full frame cameras. Canon is aggressively using DPAF even in the C700FF. So technology wise you want lenses that can cover full frame sensor and not S-35. So I would not prefer to buy cinema lenses that can't cover full frame. I saw some good looking Cine lenses by Kinefinity at 2500 USD each. So better to sit on cash and see which way the wind is blowing before committing to invest.
 
Indiawild, everyone is moving to FF? I really doubt that FF camcorders (I mean real camcorders and not stills camera) will be widely use by videographer in the near future. Because of the weight and size for example. But I might be wrong.
Of course, if I can still make money out of my C100, I will take advantage of it. But I really need another camera in 2018, so I have to make a move in the next 2-3 months, if not sooner.
 
Doug_EX said:
Don't know if I will need someday to shoot 60p in 4k, that's why the C300mkii is still on my list.
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Well if you're not sure but you want to futureproof, I'd pass on the C300! As far as waiting goes, +1 for that crowd. Sony released the FS7 in fall 2014 and the II in fall 2016 so there's a chance III could come later this year. Wouldn't be shocked to see a C300mkiii or C400 from Canon either.
 
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