C300: C300 Mark II Proxy as final deliverable?

Eric Coughlin

Eric Coughlin

Veteran
Anyone find the 1080p proxy files on the C300 Mark II to be good enough for final delivery?

Let's say, compared to a C100 AVCHD file, which obviously is suitable for end delivery on plenty of projects. I know the proxy file records at a lower bitrate, maybe around 18mbps (not sure), than the C100's 24 mbps. I think I've noticed more banding in the proxy files compared to the C100, but other than that it looks pretty good to me.

A couple of advantages of the C300 proxy files is one, obviously the smaller file size (for example, if you're uploading the footage to send to a client), and two, most clients don't own CFast cards, but many own SD cards, so at the end of the day, you can just give them back their SD card they gave you at the beginning of the day.
 
For certain clients, it's probably good enough. I am going to Canon in Hollywood this morning for an all day hands-on class on the C300 MKII and I think we will have an opportunity to shoot both CFast and SD Proxies. I've only rented the camera twice and I definitely need some time with it to learn the finer points as I typically have little camera prep time when I rent it. I am sure whatever we will be shooting will be boring trade show display type stuff although they may have a model, they did at the C300 MKII premier event, but it might be a good test to shoot the same material on both media and compare them? I'll see if I can make that happen.
 
The bitrate becomes even lower—relatively speaking—when you consider it's an intra frame codec.

I wouldn't use it for final delivery, personally. But I can't say that I've even gone over the files critically with that intention in mind.
 
Just got back from the Canon Hollywood hands-on training/seminar. According to the instructor and the Canon specialist, the proxy recordings on the C300 MKII are virtually indistinguishable from C100 AVCHD video. Personally, I shoot a lot of my material on the C100 with the Ninja Blade in Prores HQ but I have to say, the AVCHD on the C100 is very good, the recordings are basically indentical as far as looking at them, the AVCHD codec implementation is quite nice, leagues better than early AVCHD cameras. The Prores is mostly for green screen shooting but the AVCHD is a lot more convenient sometimes.

We shot some tests at the seminar, I have all kinds of different footage shot at all kinds of different frame rates, raster sizes and bit depths but I have not and will not have time to edit them to compare full res versus the proxies for at least a week or two. But in messing around with the Canon XF Utility while there, they look pretty similar on a computer screen or phone screen, except they are, of course, only 1920x1080 and are highly compressed. The instructor, a DP called Suny Behar, said that he feels the sweet spot of the camera is 2K or 1080 12-bit 4:4:4, he said it upscales to UHD beautifully. He said the 4K is really nice, of course, but the 12 bit 4:4:4 is incredible. He has setup all of the camera systems for Google and all of their on-line video and he runs the HBO camera comparisons every year and sounds knowledgable, I know he also consults for RED and Panasonic.

Just thougt I would update you on what I experienced today. I am very impressed with the C300 MKII after getting a chance to really explore it. The WFT-E6A wireless transmitter is pretty cool too, we were controlling the C300 MKII while on a Movi with an iPad. The fact that it sets up an ad hoc Wi-Fi network instead of using an app opens up a lot of cool options.
 
AndreeOnline said:
The bitrate becomes even lower—relatively speaking—when you consider it's an intra frame codec.
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The proxy media is actually a long-gop compression scheme at 8 Bit 4:2:0. So technically speaking, since it’s the same spec and bit rate as the C100 Mark II but a newer more efficient codec - it should be able to do more given the same "space" as C100 Mark II
 
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Does anyone know if its possible to shoot ONLY proxies on the C300 mark ii? I was shooting a doc some time ago and ran out of CFast-space. Would have been fantastic if I had been able to continue shooting on the SD-card, sometimes you just have to have the footage even if its not as good as 4K 422... I tried but could not find out how to continue filming. (Since then Ive bought another 256GB Cfast (expensive!) but I would still like to know how/if.


Canon C300 mark ii / Canon XC10 / Sony A7rii
 
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Just to chime in here as I have a decent handful of shoots under my belt now with the C300 MKII. I use the proxies for editing and replace only at the very end of course for final render.

What I've found is that the proxy files hold up pretty well assuming you aren't doing much grading. I'm shooting at Clog 2/3 so obviously trying to colour grade from that colour space with the proxy files is a lost cause. If you were shooting Clog 1 or WideDR, Rec709, etc. I think you'd have a fairly usable file on your hands for final delivery depending on your needs.
 
You can record the Proxy without any Cfast card. My two CFast slots are empty right now, have the SD card in there, and it records to the Proxy SD card fine. I don't think there's a way to turn off the Cfast recording without taking the cards out, and I don't know if it would record to the Proxy if there was a full Cfast card in there. But as I said, with the Cfast slots empty it's working fine. Obviously you need to have Proxy recording activated.


seanarmada said:
What I've found is that the proxy files hold up pretty well assuming you aren't doing much grading. I'm shooting at Clog 2/3 so obviously trying to colour grade from that colour space with the proxy files is a lost cause. If you were shooting Clog 1 or WideDR, Rec709, etc. I think you'd have a fairly usable file on your hands for final delivery depending on your needs.
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You can burn in the LUT on the proxy while shooting say C-Log 3 on the CFast. Go to the Proxy setting in the menu, select "Apply LUT," and it gives you the choice of BT.709, BT.2020, DCI, and Off. Found that out recently which makes the Proxy more valuable as a backup.



I've found the Proxies to look good too. They may band a little more than a C100, but most of the time it looks quite good. So if C100 footage is good enough for a deliverable, then typically the proxies should be too.

I do think there is still a distrust of proxies. I was on a C100 shoot once with a producer who owned a C100 which was being used and had hired me. I brought my C300 Mark II and mentioned to him that he could just give me an SD card of his so I could give him the proxy file at the end of the shoot which should match up with the other C100 on the shoot fine enough. But the way he put, "I'm not sure what I'd be getting with that, so let's just copy the Cfast card to my hard drive at the end of the day," which is what we did.

Of course the Cfast is better quality, but my point is that he opted for the Cfast I think not as much for the better quality, but more so because he was unsure of the quality of the proxy and didn't want to get something that is lower quality than the other C100 being used on the shoot.

I myself still have some distrust of the proxies too.

This one time I shot a project all in 4K, kept sending different edits to the client as they wanted revisions. I was editing with the proxies so typically before sending them the latest export, I'd re-link the 4K and export that. Eventually I got tired of that extra work so I think at one or two points the revision I sent them was the proxy exported, and I'm pretty sure they didn't notice a difference. Of course the final deliverable was the 4K version.
 
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Thanks Eric for the response! I think I tried to remove the CFast-cards as well, but maybe I didn't test it all the way. I remember that I didn't see any REC-red dot when recording and couldn't see any of the clips when turning to MEDIA. But maybe it was recorded to the card anyway. I don't have the cam here to try, will test again.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
Anyone find the 1080p proxy files on the C300 Mark II to be good enough for final delivery?

Let's say, compared to a C100 AVCHD file, which obviously is suitable for end delivery on plenty of projects. I know the proxy file records at a lower bitrate, maybe around 18mbps (not sure), than the C100's 24 mbps. I think I've noticed more banding in the proxy files compared to the C100, but other than that it looks pretty good to me.

A couple of advantages of the C300 proxy files is one, obviously the smaller file size (for example, if you're uploading the footage to send to a client), and two, most clients don't own CFast cards, but many own SD cards, so at the end of the day, you can just give them back their SD card they gave you at the beginning of the day.
Click to expand...

I use the proxies as a backup in the event of a CFast failure, I'll at least have a proxy version of the day. Luckily I've never had a CFast failure but I have had a few clients who have been exposed to the proxies for various reasons and they were surprised and delisted by the quality offered.

When working with editors who live out of state, I'll send them the proxies to edit with and they have remarked that they look great. Other times I have been on shoots where speed was important and after seeing the proxy quality, my producer opted to just copy the days proxies and deliver them as the final. No complaints or regrets from him.

As others have said, if you are going to be doing a lot of grading, they are probably not ideal, but with a LUT baked in, they are really great out of the box.
 
Broadcast clients are usually fine with the proxies, but I always give them the best file I can, given time and space consideration.
 
I've used the low end HD setting before - 422 10 bit 50mbs. Seems light weight enough for anyone to handle and is better than a C300 MK1 or the proxies. Plus can record 11 hours on a 256gb CFast card. Unless the client really needed an SD card handover I don't see any reason to use the proxies over the 50mbs HD setting.
 
I generally agree, but I often come back to cost. The cheapest approved 256GB CFast is what, over $600? Or you can use a $20 SD card.
 
There's a clear step down in quality from 422 10-bit 50Mbps to the proxies (just tried it): banding and compression artifacts.
 
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