Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
The Scarlet and the Epic I owned I rated at 800 iso.
C300: C300 Mark II or Sony FS7? Need help to pick one out, Will be buying either one
- Thread starter JoeJITSU
- Start date
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
..by the manufacturer and 400 by me. (just like I rate FS7 slog3 at 1000)
I must be wrong, sorry guys. To be fair, I usually shoot tungsten-lit scenes with an 80A filter on the Epic because I find it too noisy in tungsten light. Without the filter, I'd say 800 ISO daylight and a very grainy 800 ISO tungsten might be accurate; with it 320 ISO tungsten but clean. But the MX is pretty noisy, Dragon arguably worse.
Again, I may have been shooting wrong. But I stand by my observations, would be lying not to.
Again, I may have been shooting wrong. But I stand by my observations, would be lying not to.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Yes 320 is clean - I like a little 'headroom' hence 400.
Seems to me that the thread starter's particular needs are better covered by a C300mk2. But that's definitely debatable.
As for some of the other answers: I recently worked on a documentary that included shooting at a car race in Long Beach. I was a bit surprised to see the other cameras working on that race track.
Most used cameras I observed that day on the Long Beach race track (just from memory, so possibly inaccurate)
1. Sony FS700/FS7 w/O7Q attached
2. Sony FS700/FS7 (no O7Q attached)
3. Red Epics (almost 2nd place)
4. Canon C300mk1 (a distant 4th)
2/3" camcorders - not sure if I saw any...
Not including DSLRs.
Not joking.
Full disclosure: I own a C300mk1, have ordered a C300mk2 and shoot frequently with Alexa.
As for some of the other answers: I recently worked on a documentary that included shooting at a car race in Long Beach. I was a bit surprised to see the other cameras working on that race track.
Most used cameras I observed that day on the Long Beach race track (just from memory, so possibly inaccurate)
1. Sony FS700/FS7 w/O7Q attached
2. Sony FS700/FS7 (no O7Q attached)
3. Red Epics (almost 2nd place)
4. Canon C300mk1 (a distant 4th)
2/3" camcorders - not sure if I saw any...
Not including DSLRs.
Not joking.
Full disclosure: I own a C300mk1, have ordered a C300mk2 and shoot frequently with Alexa.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
First, unless you, green heron, or DLD, knows something that I'm pretty sure both
Sony and Canon keep pretty well guarded, (specific sales figures) neither
one of you have anything other than personal observations to go on when
you try and decide who is 'killing' who with sales.
Your point on Canon's price drop makes sense......they are about to
release a new, updated camera so the camera that is a couple years
old gets a price drop. But that also may be why you see more C300s
around.....they have been out for a couple years whereas the FS7 is
fairly new. It's quite possible (note I said possible as I have no way of
knowing sales figures) that the FS7 could have been outselling the
C300 since it's release......and you'd still see more C300s around
because it has been out so much longer. Finally, just because anyone
'sees things' in their part of the world, that does not always (or even
usually) reflect the larger picture. As you may be aware, Alaska is
a very popular place for reality TV shows.....a market that used to be dominated
by the C300. Last year and the year before, every one I worked on was
shot on a C300. This year the tide has been turning. In fact the last couple I
have worked on have been entirely Sony shoots, not a single C300. Does
that mean I should extrapolate that Sony is 'passing Canon? I don't think so.
It's just one small part of the world and the industry. I'm the blind man feeling
the elephants tail, while you are feeling his leg. Everyone remembers that
story right?
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icarusfilm
Veteran
production companies that produce reality broadcast content all have batteries of c300's on the shelf sofar there is little demand from the Broadcasters for 4K and as long as its 1080 50mb/s they will keep shooting until these cameras fall apart. For most of these productions the c300 MK1 is more than sufficient.
JoeJITSU
Veteran
I have seen a few FS7 around the LA area. Was working recently with 2 Executive Producers from Shark Tank and they mentioned using FS7's in the last 3 months. They did mention also that they are coming up slowly now, one of the reasons I am considering an Fs7 till the C300 MII arrives. I have money, I have a budget of $40k, we were thinking of picking up a second Dragon but it aint going to happen.
What are the necessities for the FS7, I am buying the kit for $12k, I know I am going to need a lot of accessories to go with it. I also hear that the media will be pricey. Is there anyway to purchase the 7Q or Shogun for it? Maybe a shogun and just use an SSD drive? Thanks guys, I really appreciate it.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
To kit out the FS7 for professional work included extended use on the shoulder you will need..
The zactuo base setup or go DIY - none of the other setups allow the camera far enough back to balance on the shoulder.
LUTs dont work in HFR, Custom Mode or Playback.
You will need an external monitor;/evf that supports LUTs and ideally feeds a lutted image out to a directors monitor.
Ive bought the DP502, but the Zacuto eyeball is interesting.
You will probably consider a metabones speed booster, and regular adapters
--
Media it is costly but the 100mbs is going to save you a lot of HD space (if you care) and download time (if you care) vs 220mbs recorded prores - shooting 4k at 200mbs vs 880 mbs will seriously impact HD usage. (the MXF is supposed to be as good as proRes)
Shooting 1080 doco or 4k DITTED narrate Ive got away with a 128 and a 64 card, Ill get another 128 card soon.
--
If you want to go down the Ody/Shogun route I think it will do 4k out of the hdmi or raw via the optional back box
IMO if you are considering the back box and ody then the camera will become an unwieldy beast and you would be better with a F5/55 or C300ii
To some extent the joy of the Fs7 is keeping it small (ish) and 'living' with the onboard recording. Many people (like me) hate the concept of offboard recorders!
S
The zactuo base setup or go DIY - none of the other setups allow the camera far enough back to balance on the shoulder.
LUTs dont work in HFR, Custom Mode or Playback.
You will need an external monitor;/evf that supports LUTs and ideally feeds a lutted image out to a directors monitor.
Ive bought the DP502, but the Zacuto eyeball is interesting.
You will probably consider a metabones speed booster, and regular adapters
--
Media it is costly but the 100mbs is going to save you a lot of HD space (if you care) and download time (if you care) vs 220mbs recorded prores - shooting 4k at 200mbs vs 880 mbs will seriously impact HD usage. (the MXF is supposed to be as good as proRes)
Shooting 1080 doco or 4k DITTED narrate Ive got away with a 128 and a 64 card, Ill get another 128 card soon.
--
If you want to go down the Ody/Shogun route I think it will do 4k out of the hdmi or raw via the optional back box
IMO if you are considering the back box and ody then the camera will become an unwieldy beast and you would be better with a F5/55 or C300ii
To some extent the joy of the Fs7 is keeping it small (ish) and 'living' with the onboard recording. Many people (like me) hate the concept of offboard recorders!
S
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I would not bother with external recording from the FS7. To me the camera doesn't need any extra stuff. Just pick up and shoot.
steve phillipps
Veteran
I must admit that I'm in the camp with those that haven't been massively impreseed with any of the footage from the FS7 - bearing in mind that it's all on the web so not able to make too much of that. But - almost everything I've seen from the Ursa looks terrific - can't link from my phone, but on Vimeo there's clips for example "Showreel from Vietnam", "Ursa Does Bronte" and "The Bear in NZ" - just a quick search I did a few days back and they all look fantastic. Why so little good stuff from the FS7? Of course it's all subjective.....and I do think a massive amount these days is due to the grading for sure.
Steve
Steve
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Two FS7 scenes.. the opening running and 1:53 'exit the bath'
The look is well - it is not silly with raised blue shadows or suchlike to make it look like faded scratched film - it is mildly treated to give a basic 'filmic' feel - also the lighting, well a lot of people seem to equate filmic with rim light and the like.. which is obviously not built in to the camera.
But IMO the file, properly exposed is ready to add whatever look you want.
https://vimeo.com/101527459
If you like any of the other shots it is Nex5n, FS100, 5dmk2, F3, bmc4k gopro and 7d
That top is pink and that scarf is dark brown these are not simple colours.
The look is well - it is not silly with raised blue shadows or suchlike to make it look like faded scratched film - it is mildly treated to give a basic 'filmic' feel - also the lighting, well a lot of people seem to equate filmic with rim light and the like.. which is obviously not built in to the camera.
But IMO the file, properly exposed is ready to add whatever look you want.
https://vimeo.com/101527459
If you like any of the other shots it is Nex5n, FS100, 5dmk2, F3, bmc4k gopro and 7d
That top is pink and that scarf is dark brown these are not simple colours.
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jm.gardiner
Well-known member
I use time code for 90% of shoots. Another reason I like the canon. All I need without the additional backpack.
I think that skilled cinematographers are simply not buying them(no offense to current fs7 owners). Given the $8k price point, its safe to assume that more camera operators are making the purchase than cinematographers, and we all know there is a big difference between the two. I have yet to see an fs7 on any reputable production's in LA/NY/MA. Now that's not to imply there isn't any, but that from my experience the folks using them are one man band / entry level cam op's/dp's.
I personally think the fs7 is capable of MUCH more than what we are currently seeing.
The fs7 is already unwieldy out of the box(unbalanced shoulder pad, short extension arm, clunky VF), adding a quality display with easy to use LUTS and exposure tools would likely be money well spent.
This really is an important subject that more dp/camera ops need to figure out for themselves. Some prefer Viewfinders, some prefer external Monitors. Regardless of preference, I would say one item EVERY dp/op needs in their kit is a solid monitoring device. I despise most viewfinders and prefer an external monitor, if it can double as a recorder, EVEN BETTER! Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy a stripped down camera, but the quality of most built in monitors/Viewfinders are often clunky with poorly implemented exposure tools. If you don't have a good external monitor, get one with a good sun hood and thank me later
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Not reading the entire thread but here's some facts to consider.
FS7 is out in the market, today and is a known entity. C300MKII is not and therefor we don't actually know 100% how it will perform. The rest is assumption.
FS7 is out in the market, today and is a known entity. C300MKII is not and therefor we don't actually know 100% how it will perform. The rest is assumption.
nedcam
Well-known member
Eeeeesh….What if I start a thread: “How Many Angels Can Dance On The Head Of A Pin?”
The best camera is the one that will satisfy your largest client base, that pays itself off ASAP, so you can start making a PROFIT from that point on. All others can be rented to satisfy other assignments, since we can’t own many models. I assume these types of threads are not for freelancers? The only way a freelancer can survive is to get the MOST POPULARLY REQUESTED, and that is the C300.
I have found, and the reason I loved this forum at first, that the C100 is a little profit machine like other models I have owned, and I rent when certain TV shows call with a “must have” model. I am now trolling client bases that loves the image and what it does, yet pays me a good rate since I target markets known to have budgets. It has a little crank on it to print money. Every time you talk yourself into buying a new camera the clock starts over!
Coming from the dark ages when I had to buy $50K cameras and $11K lenses, I now LOVE having such a low cost, PAID OFF QUICKLY, C100. Sure, I could get a C300 Mark II or whatever, I have the money, but what this kind of thread always misses is: “What’s your client base expecting and happy with, that will pay for itself the fastest, so you can start making a profit?”
The TV shows don’t pay well anymore. Have to work like a dog, longer hours, throw things in. And now they want 4K but I don’t see them paying any extra, just like they wouldn’t pay more for HD when that came out. Basically they’re saying: "Throw away what you presently own (and is paid for) and buy something new to give us higher quality BUT…we won’t pay you anything more."
I will be at B&H in NY on Tuesday and I'll go into the professional section on the right when you first walk in, and ask them what is selling the most, to put a nail in the coffin of this terrible thread. And then take this forum off my favorites list.
Remember this: The best car to own is the one without payments. Same with cameras. Most of us are obsessive gear freaks and we have to get into Gear Rehab. Here’s a shot of me two days ago filming a new TV show for Fox, making a good day rate using a $300 GoPro camera I bought four years ago, to place inside bee hives. That's a good PROFITABLE day. You want to work with your cameras that are paid for! Your spouse will thank you. Your kids will thank you. Your retirement fund will thank you.
The best camera is the one that will satisfy your largest client base, that pays itself off ASAP, so you can start making a PROFIT from that point on. All others can be rented to satisfy other assignments, since we can’t own many models. I assume these types of threads are not for freelancers? The only way a freelancer can survive is to get the MOST POPULARLY REQUESTED, and that is the C300.
I have found, and the reason I loved this forum at first, that the C100 is a little profit machine like other models I have owned, and I rent when certain TV shows call with a “must have” model. I am now trolling client bases that loves the image and what it does, yet pays me a good rate since I target markets known to have budgets. It has a little crank on it to print money. Every time you talk yourself into buying a new camera the clock starts over!
Coming from the dark ages when I had to buy $50K cameras and $11K lenses, I now LOVE having such a low cost, PAID OFF QUICKLY, C100. Sure, I could get a C300 Mark II or whatever, I have the money, but what this kind of thread always misses is: “What’s your client base expecting and happy with, that will pay for itself the fastest, so you can start making a profit?”
The TV shows don’t pay well anymore. Have to work like a dog, longer hours, throw things in. And now they want 4K but I don’t see them paying any extra, just like they wouldn’t pay more for HD when that came out. Basically they’re saying: "Throw away what you presently own (and is paid for) and buy something new to give us higher quality BUT…we won’t pay you anything more."
I will be at B&H in NY on Tuesday and I'll go into the professional section on the right when you first walk in, and ask them what is selling the most, to put a nail in the coffin of this terrible thread. And then take this forum off my favorites list.
Remember this: The best car to own is the one without payments. Same with cameras. Most of us are obsessive gear freaks and we have to get into Gear Rehab. Here’s a shot of me two days ago filming a new TV show for Fox, making a good day rate using a $300 GoPro camera I bought four years ago, to place inside bee hives. That's a good PROFITABLE day. You want to work with your cameras that are paid for! Your spouse will thank you. Your kids will thank you. Your retirement fund will thank you.
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I get that this is a business (very much so) but there is still IMO a huge personal input to work - hopefully at least.
I mean when I was shooting FS100 yep I was paid but was I proud of my work?
I think one needs to balance business reality with what makes you feel good in your shoes. Image wise the FS7 is doing that for me - which is a huge bar as Ive hated every other camera I have ever owned!
S
Good word Ned.
My top 2 clients want AVCHD (or other very compressed HD) and ultra high frame rates, respectively. A new client with a very large contract through next year only spec'd "4K," very generally, starting in August, and most of that would be as solo crew. It would be outright asinine to throw $20K at a complete C300.2 package in my particular case, on the off chance that I get the occasional peanut from reality shows passing through the area... but, human weakness, I did consider it for a moment.
Now if I land regular work with a C-shooting shop, one may go right in a cart... but I already tried and failed with the "buy what you think they'll want" strategy, and also the "buy what you personally like best" strategy... no sense repeating that.
My top 2 clients want AVCHD (or other very compressed HD) and ultra high frame rates, respectively. A new client with a very large contract through next year only spec'd "4K," very generally, starting in August, and most of that would be as solo crew. It would be outright asinine to throw $20K at a complete C300.2 package in my particular case, on the off chance that I get the occasional peanut from reality shows passing through the area... but, human weakness, I did consider it for a moment.
Now if I land regular work with a C-shooting shop, one may go right in a cart... but I already tried and failed with the "buy what you think they'll want" strategy, and also the "buy what you personally like best" strategy... no sense repeating that.
dmitrizigany
Veteran
I agree completely. For me it's not only a business, it's also art. I need to be happy with what I create. I would not get any more money if I got an O7Q for my FS700 (or if I would upgrade to an FS7), but I would most likely be much more happy with the results.