C200: C200 on a Zhiyun Crane 2 or Helix Jr?

J

jrm27

Active member
Hi all,

I'm doing some documentary travel work in the next month. Packing space is very very limited. I'll be bringing a c200, but will be leaving my Movi stabilizer at home. So, I was thinking of finding something smaller and lighter the could get me some decent stabilization for walk-and-talks, moving B-Roll shots, etc... Anyone have any thoughts on the Zhiyun-Tech Crane-2, or the Helix Jr? I'm intrigued by both. The Zhiyun of course costs less, which is nice ;). Any thoughts/experiences?

-jon
 
C200 is too much camera IMHO, for either device. It's not just about weight, it's also about will the device be able to move in all axis, or will bits and pieces of the camera hit the stabilizer itself. It's also about the balancing points, you have a nice gimbal, I am preaching to the choir here. I had a Helix Jr and it barely worked with the C100 MKI and the C200 is larger and heavier. The Zhiyun Crane 2 is designed for DSLRs and mirrorless. You might make the weight but it's just not going to be very smooth and stable on it.
 
Have you considered an 80D or 5D4 for gimbal work? You can set up the C200 and Canon DSLRs to be able match easily in post. I use a Ronin-M for the 1DX II. The 80D (which I have used only for testing picture styles) has great Canon color for skin tones. It's only 1080p, somewhat soft & noisy compared to the 1DX II and C300 II, however as a (travel) B camera for gimbal shots it would work great with a one hand gimbal. The 5D4 will be better, especially if you want/need 4K, though you'd need very wide lenses given the 1.74x crop factor. Folks said the Ronin-M wouldn't work with the C300 II- it works fine once balanced and tuned, it just has limited tilt range if you don't use an aftermarket mounting plate and extra weights. Thus good idea to test for yourself.

This guy says 1DX II, C200, and RED have been balanced on the Crane 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzLmGkDWN5s, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQIrD7eohM. In the second video, it sounds like he's used it a lot with the 1DX II, so that's a good sign that it's not a marginal-balance.

This guy shows the C200 balances OK, however it's not a great result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bzl_KZpoQk . Perhaps better with a lighter lens- the 16-35 L is not a light lens. The other issue is how did he balance / tune? The non-ultra smooth video example he showed reminded me of the Ronin-M before it's been finely auto-tuned (not the T-Pain type). Another factor is he mounted the monitor to an axis that requires yaw, roll, and pitch stabilization. You'd probably get a better result putting the monitor on the handle somehow, and/or on just the yaw axis (on the back of the gimbal). He does do a test with just the lens cap and it works much better (and the monitor removed). So a light lens and a better mounting point for the monitor could work OK. From the comments: "Hello, I did try to put my C200 with EFS 10-18 Lens(240g) on my Filmpower Nebula 5100 Slant, which the payload is same as your gimbal. It work. Maybe you can try some ~300g lens on it."

Again, he doesn't mention running any kind of tuning. This is super important for gimbals to work their best: tuning/auto-tuning will up the power and lower the reaction rate to handle the extra mass (for rotation that's really moment of inertia). To reduce the moment of inertia (in cases where you can't reduce the mass), you want to get the mass all bunched up as close as possible to the center of mass/rotation. Moment of inertia is computed with a distance square law (I = m*r^2, m = mass, r = radius from center of mass / constrained rotation axis), so small changes can have big results (non-linear factor).

Perhaps give the Crane 2 a try with a light lens, monitor mounted in a way which doesn't load the gimbal much, and do a proper tune / auto-tune so the gimbal can work optimally. If it doesn't work great, you could certainly use an 80D, 5D4, or 1DX II if you have the time/budget.

The Crane 2 should totally work with the C200 using this set up which works with the RED Dragon 6K!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmsj28ETj0k (in Korean, but he shows everything working). That setup could possibly even work with the C300 II. While not ideal (lag), you can use the wireless app to view and focus, so no cable to worry about (I've done this with the 1DX II and an iPhone 5S mounted to the Ronin-M).

Another C200 + Crane 2 working (note monitor located on handle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_aqwmoMvNc
 
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Thanks so much for the advice all. I'm really intrigued by these videos, and it is really helpful. I do see that the weight can be problematic with both gimbals. I'm thinking though the the Zhiyun might be my best best for now. it'll have. smaller packing footprint, and will also be a little cheaper. The Helix looks fantastic though.

I do like how in the last video, the operator had moved the monitor, that's pretty nice. I'm wondering if one of those accessory handles that turns the Zhiyun into a double handled gimbal would allow for more felxible mounting options the would keep the on-gimbal-weight of the camera down a bit. If none of it works, at least I could throw one of my DSLR's up on the gimbal and be well within the weight limits. That drop-plate you pointed out could be really helpful too. Thanks!

Please keep the comments coming if anyone has more to add, or experience with either of these!

Thanks all.

-jon
 
Simple test. Take an 8lb dumb bell weight (C200 with battery, card, 24-105mm lens and the weight of the Zhiyun Crane V2 is close to 8lbs total) and extend your arm to roughly where it would be to carry a C200 on a Crane 2. How long can you smoothly carry the 8lb weight without your arm, shoulder and or back cramping up?
Do this repeatedly for a few hours and measure the cumulative effect of all of this muscle tension on your arm, shoulder, and back. Are you satisfied with how long you can carry 6-8lbs extended away from your body? IMHO, having owned the Crane V1 and the Letus Helix Jr., one handed gimbals are barely successful with a camera that weighs a few ounces like a Fujinon XT-2 or a Sony 6500. Putting a camera as bulky and heavy as the C200 is probably not very practical in the long run. Not saying it can't be done, just that from a real world perspective, not very practical. Helix Jr. will be better but even then, I could only carry it with the C100 MKI for about 10 minutes before the shakes set in.
 
I totally agree with puredrifting. I used the helix jr with an a7rii, smallhd monitor and sigma glass and it was painful after a while. You end up with shaky footage.
I've been trying the zhiyun crane 2 with the 1dx ii this week. I confirm that it works (I had to attach 1lb of weights from my old glidecam to the base in order to balance the tilt axis). However I couldn't resist for too long playing around with it. My forearms and wrists were on fire.
Maybe this can help, but I guess it's not ideal if you want to travel light https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1309882-REG/glide_gear_dna_5000_vest_arm_kit_for.html
 
I am actually going the opposite direction, I just ordered a new 256GB iPhone 8 Plus, some Moment WA lenses and a Zhiyun Smooth III, going to download the Filmic Pro app too. I am selling my Crane, will just use my 80D for stills and the iPhone will become my new gimbal camera, it's that good and the average viewer is never going to be able to tell. I was contemplating buying a Fujinon XT-2 but then I have to spend thousands on some new lenses for it. I hate the colors from the Sonys and even the Panasonic GH5S colors are just okay, plus then I would have to spend a bundle on M43 lenses too. The iPhone colors are pretty appealing to me, especially with the Filmic Pro app. IMHO, we have finally reached the point where smartphone video is definitely good enough for the average documentary or event project b-roll shot. Not all, but for the large majority, good enough. Of course, my C200 and rental C300 MKIIs will remain the A cameras but I have very little interest in trying to wrangle either on a gimbal, just not worth the hassle and expense for most of my projects. For the occasional high end project, I will just hire a pro Steadicam and or Gimbal operator with a RED or Alexa Mini on it, but those are just 2-3 times a year.

Props to all of you guys babysitting huge, heavy, complex gimbals that take forever to setup and balance with 3-8lb cameras on them. If you have clients who are paying you to do so, great. But for many of us, gimbals are just a bonus shot here and there that clients like but will not pay much extra for. After viewing a few clips like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ8ndUJNSuM I am beginning to warm to the idea of smartphone shooting. Not perfect, but to the average viewer, more than good enough.
 
puredrifting, there's a new version of the DJI Osmo Mobile (it's for smartphones) coming out (next month?). Big price decrease, 15 hours on a charge.

I've only had my hands on an Osmo Mobile v1 for about a minute. I'm a huge fan of Filmic Pro, but, the DJI app gives you really outstanding gimbal tracking. In my one minute of experience with it... I was impressed!
 
I'll check that out SethB. I had an Osmo and I have to say, IMHO, DJI's software kind of sucks. I sold it to a friend and since we went to iOS 11 on our phones, none of our phones will link up with the Osmo, so she is stuck with a boat anchor. Multiple inquiries to DJI have netted us no result or solution.

Along the lines of what I posted above, Steven Soderbergh shot his latest on the iPhone and says moving forward, he wants to shoot more of his projects on iPhones. Interesting times. We are reaching the final phase of the democratization of digital video, everyone will already own a capture instrument that is "good enough" to shoot something that can play in theaters. http://www.indiewire.com/2018/01/steven-soderbergh-interview-sundance-iphone-unsane-1201921769/ If I were RED, Canon, Arri, Sony, I would be seriously reacting to this new movement. At least RED is with the new phone they are coming out with. The days of needing a $50k camera to get your feature into theaters or onto people's TV sets are almost over. Not saying everyone will switch to iPhones to shoot everything but that soon it won't matter what you shot it on. If you have the chops as a visual storyteller, iPhone away! I love it. I am tired of expensive, big, heavy camera rigs, the idea of shooting with a phone is growing in appeal to me. It was never about having a big, fancy rig for me, it was always about is the end result on the screen compelling? It's easier to tell engaging stories, especially for my field, documentaries and BTS, with a phone than a rigged out Amira.
 
Thanks for the comments on your experience with Osmo. The student with that Osmo rig is showing up in a half hour. I'll find out more from her, particularly what OS she's on. In last Saturday's class she took it out of the box for the first time, and was up and running 5 minutes later. DJI does have some US-based staff, but they are a Chinese company.

Couldn't agree MORE with your comments about the democratization of digital video. Access to technology supports more storytellers. Learning how to tell stories in these media hasn't changed much.

***Edit***
She was on an iPhone 7 with iOS 11.x. The Osmo was brand new last week. She too had concerns about buggy software.

OTOH, do other gimbals’ apps give you the availability to auto track?
 
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puredrifting said:
I am actually going the opposite direction, I just ordered a new 256GB iPhone 8 Plus, some Moment WA lenses and a Zhiyun Smooth III, going to download the Filmic Pro app too. I am selling my Crane, will just use my 80D for stills and the iPhone will become my new gimbal camera, it's that good and the average viewer is never going to be able to tell. I was contemplating buying a Fujinon XT-2 but then I have to spend thousands on some new lenses for it. I hate the colors from the Sonys and even the Panasonic GH5S colors are just okay, plus then I would have to spend a bundle on M43 lenses too. The iPhone colors are pretty appealing to me, especially with the Filmic Pro app. IMHO, we have finally reached the point where smartphone video is definitely good enough for the average documentary or event project b-roll shot. Not all, but for the large majority, good enough. Of course, my C200 and rental C300 MKIIs will remain the A cameras but I have very little interest in trying to wrangle either on a gimbal, just not worth the hassle and expense for most of my projects. For the occasional high end project, I will just hire a pro Steadicam and or Gimbal operator with a RED or Alexa Mini on it, but those are just 2-3 times a year.

Props to all of you guys babysitting huge, heavy, complex gimbals that take forever to setup and balance with 3-8lb cameras on them. If you have clients who are paying you to do so, great. But for many of us, gimbals are just a bonus shot here and there that clients like but will not pay much extra for. After viewing a few clips like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ8ndUJNSuM I am beginning to warm to the idea of smartphone shooting. Not perfect, but to the average viewer, more than good enough.
Click to expand...

Indeed, the iPhone 8 Plus video footage looks good. I also red the interview with Steven Soderbergh you linked below. However, when the iPhone is going to be used as B cam, I wonder what will happen to the looks of its footage once you'd try to match it to you’re a cam. I'd test it before investing money.
 
I'd still like to see more footage and get more opinions on this. I mean the C200 (especially the b) is meant for gimbals really. iPhone and Sonys are nice but just doesn't match the quality of Canon Raw, especially if you need to deliver in 4K (i.e. Netflix).

I feel like it'd be so simple for Sony or Canon to make a mirrorless or DSLR that shoots 4K Raw or at least 10bit 422 to a Shogun or something, but they don't want to compete with their higher end cameras. Damn capitalism.

So assuming going with a smaller camera package isn't an option, I'd love to see some of the better options people have had with flying a C200 with smaller/cheaper gimbals.

Also don't forget a lot of these single hand gimbals have the option of using dual handles, which would definitely be the way to go when flying such a heavy camera and would still be a smaller setup than other gimbals.
 
a BUNGIE CORD helps greatly for a heavier load on the Crane 2.

my 1DXmkII and Crane 2 gets heavy after awhile. to deal with this i use a heavy duty bungie cord. it goes around my neck and i slip it under the "closed" 3 legs of the Crane 2. the bungie should not "bottom out". as long as there is stretch left it acts as a shock absorber. even though you are still holding the crane "away" from your body the bungie still takes significant weight off and holding the crane is actually very easy.

of course if you plan to raise the crane high then the bungie cord doesn't do anything. still most shooting for me is the camera at about upper chest of neck and a short strong bungie works nicely for me.

also between shots you can let the cranes weight drop and the bungie takes all the weight as you stand around but of course you need to hold the crane from tipping over.

so basically you would still use 2 hands to operate just like you would without the bungie cord but the heaviness is mostly gone.

david
 
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david_p said:
a BUNGIE CORD helps greatly for a heavier load on the Crane 2.
Click to expand...

That's a good idea. It's also possible to mount the Crane 2 to a short rod/monopod and use a belt/waist mount. I'll try this method shortly with the Ronin-M and the 1DX II / C300 II using one of these with a rod/belt system: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B019W9M53E/ or this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01AJ522EC/.

Rod belt systems (I got this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E5M1MT2/ (I removed the spring and installed a Manfrotto quick-release tilt mount: https://www.amazon.com/Manfrotto-Monopod-Release-Replacement-Connect/dp/B004KN42AM/ ):
https://www.amazon.com/Neewer-Retractable-Support-Shoulder-Camcorder/dp/B00MMZ0YGG/
https://www.amazon.com/Telescopic-Extension-Comfortable-C-SR-Camacoders/dp/B00M435YDO/
 
This is all really helpful. Thanks all. That Bungie idea is a stellar hack. I'm thinking of picking up the crane and seeing how it works with the c200, with the idea that it should work better with my 5dmkiii if this a better course of action. I'm thinking of picking up one of the double hands as well. A belt system would be awesome too... but the amount of picking space I have precludes that.
 
Ive used the c200 with the crane 2.
-Set up is with the small battery, took out all handles, 18-35/11-16/17-40, Added some counter weights to balance it properly.
-It has limitations in tilting up or down.
-challenge ive encountered is placing the lcd somewhere. Cable is too short.
-i got a (glidegear5000) vest/arm for this that helps alleviate maybe 30% of the weight. With smaller cameras i can go all day with this.
 
dcloud said:
Ive used the c200 with the crane 2.
-Set up is with the small battery, took out all handles, 18-35/11-16/17-40, Added some counter weights to balance it properly.
-It has limitations in tilting up or down.
-challenge ive encountered is placing the lcd somewhere. Cable is too short.
-i got a (glidegear5000) vest/arm for this that helps alleviate maybe 30% of the weight. With smaller cameras i can go all day with this.
Click to expand...

The tilting limitations, is that mostly due to the viewfinder or is it hitting the back of the camera? I'm curious of the C200b would help in avoiding this problem.

How are you at maneuvering in tight spaces with the vest/arm setup? Is it really cumbersome? I'm wondering if I could use it in a house without worrying about the arm knocking over a vase or something.
 
The tilting problem is because of the weight, I used C200 without a monitor and with Canon 10-18 and Samyang 12/2.8 without any problems, including tilt, and actually it is surprisingly smooth and stable, feels smoother than my Ronin M. It will surely work with 50/1.8 STM so those three lenses are all I need for fast gimbal work.

The monitor could be attached to the right motor, there is a screw hole, but I didn't try that and don't know if it will be too heavy. With C200 we cannot go any lighter than that, I use Glidecam HD2000 also and the setup for C200 is too heavy, my arm is shaking immediately and I work out and use Glidecam more than 10 years...
 
dcloud said:
Ive used the c200 with the crane 2.
-Set up is with the small battery, took out all handles, 18-35/11-16/17-40, Added some counter weights to balance it properly.
-It has limitations in tilting up or down.
-challenge ive encountered is placing the lcd somewhere. Cable is too short.
-i got a (glidegear5000) vest/arm for this that helps alleviate maybe 30% of the weight. With smaller cameras i can go all day with this.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking.. strip the camera down, and relocate the LCD as best as possible. As far as I can tell, there aren't any longer cables available for that monitor? Otherwise, I guess try to use a small HD or something. Trying to figure out the best way to mount that on the Helix though.
 
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