C100: C100 with Atomos Ninja2

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perrostar

Member
Hi,

I'm a littlebit confused about C100 working with a Ninja2 Recorder. What i read was , that it is possible to record a 4:2:2 10bit signal to the Atomos Ninja2 with C100 trough the HDMI Clear out from the camera.
Is that right ? If yes , is the signal which i record with the ninja 2 just a conversion for better editing or do i have more color space with the 10bit for grading ?

Sorry for these basic question and for my english , i'm not native :-)
 
That would be 4:2:2 at 8 bits which does give you a bit more latitude to work with in post.
 
Now I'm confunsed. I've heard it's 8 Bit 4:2:0 coming out the C100 HDMI port and the Ninja 2 records it as 10 bit 4:2:2. Is that right?
 
This confusion needs clarifying immediately. It's 8 bit 4:2:2 coming out of the HDMI port - confirmed many, many times and by Canon. Stop worrying, go and shoot nice stuff with the great tool that the C100 is!
 
andykwilkinson said:
This confusion needs clarifying immediately. It's 8 bit 4:2:2 coming out of the HDMI port - confirmed many, many times and by Canon. Stop worrying, go and shoot nice stuff with the great tool that the C100 is!
Click to expand...

Ooops! Sorry. That's what I heard: 8 bit 4:2:2 out the HDMI, 10 bit 4:2:2 recorded in the Ninja 2 for a little better file. I used to think it would be a lot better but some of the recent AVCHD postings have made me question that.
 
Well it's only going to be 8bit 4:2:2 quality no matter what external recorder you use. No need to go 10bit unless the settings only offer 10bit but not worth the extra file size. 8bit will always be 8bit. Cant make it better than the source.
 
I believe the Ninja 2 only records ProResHQ 10 bit 4:2:2...Could be wrong though, I don't have one...yet.
 
I'll add a few comments as I've been using the C100/Ninja 2 combo for a few weeks now:

As mentioned, the Ninja 2 does record as 10 bit 4:2:2, but the output of the camera is 8 bit 4:2:2.

In comparing to the AVCHD there *IS* an improvement in quality, but it's not massive. The AVCHD is very good. Noticeable quality improvement seems to me to be in things like horizontal lines where the AVCHD compression is more noticeable. I have occasionally seen banding which is a limitation of the 8 bit but this has been rare (early night sky with no clouds on a portion of the shot, so the colour gradient was slight and introduced banding - earlier or later times would probably have not been so noticeable).

The other day I used it on a run-and-gun shoot on a beach with a monopod and camera, lens, Ninja and mic and the extra weight does not pose a problem, plus I use the Ninja as an external monitor. Altogether the system is fine on a monopod it's a bit too heavy to handhold for any length of time.

The biggest improvement for me is in the workflow. It automatically starts/stops recording based on signals from the camera so it's invisible to using the camera. In hours of recording I have had no issue whatsoever with the HDMI connection and I don't have a locking HDMI cable (yet). I can record to an SSD, output the XML and import all the footage straight into FCPX with a couple of clicks via fast firewire with no transcoding or pulldown required. Ready to go (especially if you use Wide DR and need no colour correction). Also the files can be named by scene/shot and flagged as good/bad in the Ninja prior to import if you have time at the shoot. You can also use the peaking, zebras and false colour on the Ninja and use it like an external monitor. It's not as good as having a "real" external monitor but as one lightweight package it works fine.

For me I think I would now use the Ninja/Canon Log combo for most circumstances. I would only ditch the Ninja or record to Wide DR for really lightweight requirements. Initially I thought I would mostly use Wide DR and AVCHD but the ease of use of the Ninja has me attaching it for all my shoots now.

If you use the whole system then for $1K it's a great addition. If you are just after improved image quality and don't want to use Canon Log, then you will definitely get that but it's maybe not so far ahead of the AVCHD to warrant $1K.

One of my main issues now is that FCPX *STILL* has fundamental issues that mean it cannot be relied on in a professional environment. I've tried to give it a go for 8 versions now but it's now time to ditch it and switch completely to using Premiere, but of course that negates a couple of the handy FCPX features of the Ninja. Hopefully I wont miss them, or Premiere will support them in the future.

To sum up: for me personally, I love the C100 and Ninja combo. I bought it to use only for high end productions and documentaries but find I now use it all the time for all it's features, not just the better image quality. It has become a core part of my kit. The C100 rocks. Canon Log rocks. The Ninja rocks.

Recommendations (additional costs):

A hood (I haven't tried this yet, will order soon - definitely needed!)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/759117-REG/Hoodman_HV5_3_Sided_5_Visor_Hood.html

Additional caddies. It comes with 2 but I have some larger HDDs I want to use for events where I can set up on a tripod. I think most people will have more than 2 drives:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/829885-REG/Atomos_ATOMCAD001_Master_Caddy_Case_for.html

Power Supply for when you are doing a full day event. I'm doing an 8 hour event in a hall in 2 weeks so recording to one HDD in ProRes 422 (not HQ) and Wide DR should produce excellent results (with SD cards for backup). Not having to transcode or pulldown 6-8 hours footage will be a massive timesaver.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/829897-REG/Atomos_ATOMACP001_AC_Power_Supply_for.html

Extra batteries. I've been using the 2 that came with the Ninja, and they haven't run out on a shoot yet! Though I'll be picking up a spare or two (note these are Atomos branded batteries but it will take any of the Sony compatible ones)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/759489-REG/Atomos_ATOMBAT001_ATOMBAT001_Battery.html
 
Matt,
the hoodman hood fits the ninja but wont protect the screen against bright sunlight outdoors. I customized it attaching a sheet of black plastic 10cm long on each side. Basically I used it as a frame for a real hood.
I wonder why either atomos or any third party other than hoodman didn't came out with a nice sun hood
 
Thanks for the heads up diegocervo, I haven't ordered one yet so it's good to know. For now I've been using my Marshall 5" hood stuck on with Velcro. It doesn't fit well but its better than nothing. Yeah, you'd think a good hood was a must have requirement so they would have a product out there specifically for the Ninja. I've also heard mention of a loupe which doesn't seem to have materialised. Less useful for a touchscreen but you could switch the Ninja to monitor mode and then not need to touch it again with the C100s auto start/stop. Oh well, 3rd party add ons seem to take a while. Still waiting on a C100 Z-Finder, they were supposed to be out at the beginning of December.
 
Matt Turner said:
I'll add a few comments...
Click to expand...

Nice writeup Matt!

For me, I find that Canon Log can rock, but that it doesn't rock all the time.

When shooting indoor for instance, how do you handle that? I feel that the emphasis on roll off protection leaves to little to work with where the meat of the image is. I also find that if I DO expose to around 35 IRE I almost always have to push gamma in post, and that kind of defeats the purpose.

In certain scenes with bright skies and so on, naturally, Log is brilliant.

Do you care to elaborate on your experiences with Canon Log and make a comparison between indoor/outdoor and if you also feel you need to "lift" footage in post?
 
Canon log is just as much about detail in darks as highlight retention. You need to raise middle grey for indoor scenes. You shouldn't be around 35 IRE inside unless you are going for an underexposed look. For preservation of detail in the darks you need to be at 40 IRE if not 50 IRE as long as your highlights don't clip. Middle grey always needs to move with C series cameras based on where detail is most important in the scene.

AndreeOnline said:
Nice writeup Matt!

For me, I find that Canon Log can rock, but that it doesn't rock all the time.

When shooting indoor for instance, how do you handle that? I feel that the emphasis on roll off protection leaves to little to work with where the meat of the image is. I also find that if I DO expose to around 35 IRE I almost always have to push gamma in post, and that kind of defeats the purpose.

In certain scenes with bright skies and so on, naturally, Log is brilliant.

Do you care to elaborate on your experiences with Canon Log and make a comparison between indoor/outdoor and if you also feel you need to "lift" footage in post?
Click to expand...
 
Matt Turner said:
If you are just after improved image quality and don't want to use Canon Log, then you will definitely get that but it's maybe not so far ahead of the AVCHD to warrant $1K.
Click to expand...

This post was amazingly helpful, thanks! I have one question about the above: Do you think that the Ninja adds more or adds less with C-Log vs. non-C-log?

Thanks.
 
Matt Turner said:
One of my main issues now is that FCPX *STILL* has fundamental issues that mean it cannot be relied on in a professional environment. I've tried to give it a go for 8 versions now but it's now time to ditch it and switch completely to using Premiere, but of course that negates a couple of the handy FCPX features of the Ninja. Hopefully I wont miss them, or Premiere will support them in the future.
Click to expand...

Purely out of interest (and not wanting to get the thread sidetracked), what is it you are struggling with in FCP X?

The reason I ask is that I have tracked FCP X since it's first launch, and barring one particular bug I'm aware of to do with plugins, we're about to switch FROM Premiere Pro CS6 to FCP X for quite a lot of work. We've been doing our own tests in our quiet period and have found the workflow to be significantly faster, especially on export. We found that the built in 3-way on Premiere Pro is junk and we really had to resort to Colorista II. This makes the final exports around 8-10 times longer than the using FCP X, which is significant on rush jobs. This is not to mention the serious bugs in CS6 for AVCHD that Adobe don't seem like fixing after 8 months (it worked fine prior to CS6).

So, your findings would be of interest.... especially in the context of the C100 (which we are considering in addition to our XF cameras).

Thanks
 
Exact said:
what is it you are struggling with in FCP X?
Click to expand...
Every version ads new show stopping bugs that make it really hard to justify using. For instance the latest 10.0.8 renders random frames in magenta, green or black. I know that no software is bug free and I have given it time but it's really getting annoying. Personally, I think it is great software, it does what I need it to do, especially for smaller more agile projects, it's fast and the workflow with the Ninja is awesome. Professionally, not so great, but I'll probably give it a bit more time even though I'll whinge about it.
 
Matt Turner said:
Every version ads new show stopping bugs that make it really hard to justify using. For instance the latest 10.0.8 renders random frames in magenta, green or black. I know that no software is bug free and I have given it time but it's really getting annoying. Personally, I think it is great software, it does what I need it to do, especially for smaller more agile projects, it's fast and the workflow with the Ninja is awesome. Professionally, not so great, but I'll probably give it a bit more time even though I'll whinge about it.
Click to expand...

I've had some trouble with magenta, green, etc frames but only when I've tried to do something with the GPU during rendering. I tend to just let it do its thing. FCP7 used to have issues too. General rule of thumb is to try and leave your machine be or at most just browse around while it's rendering...but I realize that's not always practical. They'll fix that I"m sure...only happened to me a time or two. Not the end of the world.

I'm loving FCPX. :)
 
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