C100: C100 Run and Gun mic + set up

T

twrench

Member
I would like any suggestions for a solid on camera shotgun mic with some decent wind protection.

Usage: on the street interviews, when a sound guy is not available. Think... Getting the next one liner out of THE Donald Trump.

I am not a fan of the wimpy c100 mic holder. My current set up, which is only used as a scratch track or for emergencies is a Rode NGT2 in the C100 mic holder, with some foam and a dead cat. I cut up a bike inner tube and wrap it around the Rode, in an attempt to deaden the noise generated from the Rode body.

Budget: If I could get "usable" sound, I would spend around 2,000 on the mic, a mounting solution as well as some wind protection.

Thanks for the help.
 
I generally use a Sennheiser MKH416. It's a smaller diameter so I use a rubber spacer to make it work with the c100 mount. And I guess it further insulates it against whatever camera noise. It's a great mic all around.

I think the problem with any onboard mic isn't that it gets noisy because it's onboard.. it gets noisy because it's so far away from whoever you are shooting. The c100 has great insulation against vibration, etc.. I've never listened back to a track and thought that the camera was the issue.. it's always been noise/space between the mic and subject.
 
ryanhargrave said:
I think the problem with any onboard mic isn't that it gets noisy because it's onboard.. it gets noisy because it's so far away from whoever you are shooting. The c100 has great insulation against vibration, etc.. I've never listened back to a track and thought that the camera was the issue.. it's always been noise/space between the mic and subject.
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+1 on this. It varies depending on the needs of the project you're shooting, but in general, you aren't going to get very good sound from anything mounted onto your camera unless you're really close, and even then it'll be questionable. That's why you boom just outside of frame, or use a LAV. Distance to your subject matters, along with what type of environment you're in, and thus what type of mic to use. I alternate between a pair of LAVs, a hyper, and a shotgun, depending on the situation.

That said, to answer your question, the Rode NTG-3 with a deadcat slapped on is a great shotgun.
 
Another factor you need to consider, most of the best sounding shotguns and cardioids are NOT designed for on camera usage, they are sensitive to handling noise. IMHO, the overall best sounding cardioid mic availabe is the Schoeps CMC-641 combo but it would be an awful sounding on camera mic as it is too sensitive. The Sennheiser MKH-416 is very sensitive to directionality. In other words, if it is pointing off axis, even slightly from the talent, it loses a large amount of pickup. Ask any boom operator, the 416, while a good sounding mic, is not very forgiving to "aiming" errors.

Jthabel is right, you can mount the best sounding mic in the world on camera and it's going to sound like garbage, you can't refute the laws of physics. I am very sound oriented, I owned an audio post facility a few years ago and made hundreds of thousands of dollars, trying to fix bad audio. I have written about location sound for years and when you see my camera, you won't even see a mic mounted to it, I use the built-in mic because all an on camera mic is good for is recording a bit of ambiance, never a main subject speaking. If you need good sound, you need to get a wireless lav onto your subject or hire a boom operator. People who mount expensive mics on camera are somewhat delusional, they think they are going to record killer sound because they bougt an expensive mic but in reality, not being able to refute the laws of physics, the results from anything further that 24" from subject is going to sound bad and the low quality increases exponentially as the mic becomes more distant to the subject so a mic 48" away from subject doesn't sound twice as bad as a mic placed 24", it sounds ten times worse.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you need to rethink your strategy, you will never obtain good sound from an on-camera mic unless you are a foot or two from your subject and even then, you are subject to handling noise, and your mic is pointed at your subject, who it sounds like will be surrounded by entourage, so your mic will pick up lots of extraneous subjects who you probably don't want to capture. That's why we boom from overhead because the mic pointing down at the ground past the subject usually doesn't pick up as much ambient noise like the guy talking on his cell phone two feet from the side of your subject. Objectively, mounting any mic to a camera, unless it's like the C300 that has no internal mic, is a complete waste of time and money, unless you are consistently less than 24" away from your subject. Yes, I am opinionated on this because I spent more than a decade explaining to directors and producers that short of ADR, there are really no ways to "fix it in post" with audio, you either hire a good sound mixer who knows that they are doing and give them an environment where it is possible to capture good sound, or you spend lots of money basically polishing a turd.
Good luck.
 
Such a good response. Couldn't agree more on this.

puredrifting said:
Another factor you need to consider, most of the best sounding shotguns and cardioids are NOT designed for on camera usage, they are sensitive to handling noise. IMHO, the overall best sounding cardioid mic availabe is the Schoeps CMC-641 combo but it would be an awful sounding on camera mic as it is too sensitive. The Sennheiser MKH-416 is very sensitive to directionality. In other words, if it is pointing off axis, even slightly from the talent, it loses a large amount of pickup. Ask any boom operator, the 416, while a good sounding mic, is not very forgiving to "aiming" errors.

Jthabel is right, you can mount the best sounding mic in the world on camera and it's going to sound like garbage, you can't refute the laws of physics. I am very sound oriented, I owned an audio post facility a few years ago and made hundreds of thousands of dollars, trying to fix bad audio. I have written about location sound for years and when you see my camera, you won't even see a mic mounted to it, I use the built-in mic because all an on camera mic is good for is recording a bit of ambiance, never a main subject speaking. If you need good sound, you need to get a wireless lav onto your subject or hire a boom operator. People who mount expensive mics on camera are somewhat delusional, they think they are going to record killer sound because they bougt an expensive mic but in reality, not being able to refute the laws of physics, the results from anything further that 24" from subject is going to sound bad and the low quality increases exponentially as the mic becomes more distant to the subject so a mic 48" away from subject doesn't sound twice as bad as a mic placed 24", it sounds ten times worse.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you need to rethink your strategy, you will never obtain good sound from an on-camera mic unless you are a foot or two from your subject and even then, you are subject to handling noise, and your mic is pointed at your subject, who it sounds like will be surrounded by entourage, so your mic will pick up lots of extraneous subjects who you probably don't want to capture. That's why we boom from overhead because the mic pointing down at the ground past the subject usually doesn't pick up as much ambient noise like the guy talking on his cell phone two feet from the side of your subject. Objectively, mounting any mic to a camera, unless it's like the C300 that has no internal mic, is a complete waste of time and money, unless you are consistently less than 24" away from your subject. Yes, I am opinionated on this because I spent more than a decade explaining to directors and producers that short of ADR, there are really no ways to "fix it in post" with audio, you either hire a good sound mixer who knows that they are doing and give them an environment where it is possible to capture good sound, or you spend lots of money basically polishing a turd.
Good luck.
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puredrifting said:
The Sennheiser MKH-416 is very sensitive to directionality. In other words, if it is pointing off axis, even slightly from the talent, it loses a large amount of pickup. Ask any boom operator, the 416, while a good sounding mic, is not very forgiving to "aiming" errors.
Click to expand...

This is 100% accurate. I should have been more clear... I use the 416 on a boom 95% of the time. When it goes on camera, I actually prefer the narrowness of it because when I'm not using the internal mics it's usually for something specific.
 
Well, I shoot run and gun and even interviews all the time with a shotgun mic mounted on camera. Often it's just me and there is no time for lavs. In crowded areas, I am usually standing so near that I feel there is not too much difference in mic to talent distance compared with a boom. What's good about a boomer is that he can change the mic angle to make use of the mics pick up pattern though.

Anyway it just depends on your projects. For anything that's event/documentary/reportage style, mic on camera is often good enough for me. Clients haven't really complained either. As long as they can hear it they are fine, as they are more concerned about the message versus the audio quality. They are happy that I can shoot comments at any time and saving half the shooting budget by getting just me vs an additional boomer. When it's too noisy I say I have to put on a lav. (in the end, I DO prefer lavs for interviews)

That said, I agree (though not sure if anyone really said this exactly) that for an on-camera mic you probably won't get much more by spending 2000$ instead of 1000$ or even less on a shotgun mic. I've been using my fs100 kit mic on my C100 because that's all I have (I have a small hyper too, though, but rarely use it), that mic is less than 200$, but it's pretty good :)

So yeah, it really depends on the type of project and budget, but I wouldn't say using an on camera shotgun is wrong, there are uses for it.
I know some audio minded people are ready to kill me now, just know I am not claiming that the audio quality in my videos is good, it's pretty crappy actually, but it's audible and it will have to do.

I would focus on wind protection rather than a new mic, that will make the biggest difference IMO.

As for me, I am annoyed by the volume controls on top of the handle of the C100, so I'm considering a juicedlink riggy just for this reason, haha. Anyway maybe that's for another thread!
 
I use an Audio Technica AT-875R and Rode Video Mic Pro as my two on-camera shotguns. I have a more expensive Sanken CS-3e, but like puredrifting said, the higher end mics are often more directional, so if it's not aimed precisely then you're in for trouble. Plus, even if you have it aimed at the person's mouth, it's often picking up a lot of noise behind them as well, as opposed to if you were outside and had the boom low and pointed to the sky, for example. The Audio Technica AT-875R has a wider pattern so is more forgiving.

When I do run n' gun interviews, even if I'm by myself, I generally use a lav directly into the C100 (takes 15-25 seconds to clip on someone) or a shotgun mounted on a small light stand placed just below frame and pointed at their mouth. Works fine for me, though of course there are some situations where it's just not practical to have a lav or off-camera shotgun, such as when I'm filming wedding preps but still want to capture audio snippets of the bride, groom, and bridal party.


zwarte_kat said:
As for me, I am annoyed by the volume controls on top of the handle of the C100, so I'm considering a juicedlink riggy just for this reason, haha. Anyway maybe that's for another thread!
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I don't know, if you're going to go on-camera for an interview mic you may as well keep the bar low and set it to auto-gain control too. :)
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I don't know, if you're going to go on-camera for an interview mic you may as well keep the bar low and set it to auto-gain control too. :)
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True, haha. Actually I found that with a shotgun mic the audio clips a lot when I set it to auto-gain, though I have yet to experiment with the limiter. The build in mic seems to clip less with auto gain though.

I'm actually considering to get a video mic pro for when I want light weight/small form factor and the audio is not that important.
 
What Puredrifting said is correct. The only way I can use an on camera mic is if I am Right On Top of the subject and then it will have a doc vibe due to the ambiance. I believe in pinning a lav on, however, when you're working solo it's hard to put down the camera and use two hands to clip a radio on them and hide the cable. In crowd situations I've had people walk away forgetting they were wearing my mic, which is why I have my label on everything.

The best documentary mic, the successor to the venerable 416, is my Sennheiser MKH-60 ($1500). It will last you for years (if you don't get it wet), tough enough to drive nails. When I am at a news event and look up at the sea of boom mics I can tell by the back of the mics sticking out of the dead cats that the majority are MKH-60s, kind of the default doc boom mic nowadays. Schoeps are way too sensitive and are perfect for interior interviews and dramatic work but not docs. When I hire DPs in other cities for my clients if they don't have a boom mic of that level of quality, it raises an eyebrow if you know what I mean.

I put my MKH-60 on a pistol grip and have the Client/PA/Director/Anybody hold it right below frame line. I have it go to two channels split by an XLR Y cable, one I have set normal and the other channel I back down a smidge. If the camera I'm using has Chs 3 & 4 I will have those on the camera mic for the editor to blend ambiance. As often happens the person assigned to hold the mic is nowhere to be found so many years ago I developed a unique method of jamming the pistol grip into my belt at an upward angle, the Viagra Angle, I get a little closer than usual, and I get great audio, although it looks obscene!

Once I have my focal length, exposure and focus all set I use my left hand to take the the mic out of my belt and aim it forward, so I get it a couple of feet closer than if it's in my belt. The true meaning on a One-Man-Band.

Here's an unflattering angle of me on a documentary this summer where I had to use this technique. Hey, I have to store the boom somewhere, it might as well be facing forward in case someone has something to say. I have a second degree of (prophylactic) protection on gusty days to go over the dead cat called a Rycote Windjammer. This is very necessary and some people think their dead cat is enough but it is not when there are wind gusts.

When I have had to put a boom on the C100 Frankenrig I use a shock mount ($40) with rubber bands:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/885660-REG/auray_dusm_1_universal_shock_mount.html

The trick is when someone starts saying something you feel is a keeper you CAN NOT MOVE YOUR HANDS OR FINGERS AT ALL! Freeze! In fact, don't breathe.

Lastly, when I am working solo because the client is too poor or cheap to hire a soundman, and God forbid if they complain about an audio issue later, like clothing rustle or wind noise, I say, "Why are you complaining to me about the audio? I was the cameraman. Call the soundman." Inevitably they will say, "But there was no soundman". And my response is.... "I rest my case".
 
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Ned,

Thanks for the response and the guts to post that pix.

I was lucky enough to get my sound guy out to the last shoot (MKH-60, Zeppelin, pole, and a Roland R-44 with a Oade mod). Interestingly enough, the event was covered by local and national media and we were the only team with boom setup. Al Jazeera did have a producer with a hand held mic. ;-)

On a side note, we were shooting in a swamp, there are 8 Camera people standing in cattails, muck and water, waiting to film a speaker in a canoe. After waiting for the speaker for about 20 minutes, two 20-somethings walk up in front of my and two other operators with a go pro on a selfie stick and something that looked like Mr. Microphone and block out our shots. One other guy and I tap on their shoulders and ask them to move, they turn around and look at us and then completely ignore us. So my sound guy just swings his pole and bonks them on the head a few times, and they got the message.

It is always good to have a versatile sound man.

Bert
 
twrench, I am showing your post to my sound mixer, I expect the same support from him. ;-) Give that mixer a pay bump.
 
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