C100: C100 Mark II + Ninja Star vs C300 Internal

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AlexNOR

Active member
Hi guys

I apologize in advance if this is a stupid and/or repeat question. I just simply have to ask since I don't know the answer myself and couldn't really find it by searching.

Is the C100 Mark II recording through the Atomos Ninja Star in Prores HQ superior to the C300 recording internally, or will the C300 still provide the better image?


- Alex :)
 
You won't get a straight answer on this.

Apparently (and I can find people who are convinced of this, even if I'm not) Canon at some point announced off-the-record that the internal processing of the C100 was dumbed down relative to the C300, so that the C300 would always have the better image external recorder or not, but that the Mk II brought the processing level up to the C300's (although also clearly changed the "look"--for the better).

Unless you're doing extensive green screen or low light work they're all more than good enough.
 
Policar said:
You won't get a straight answer on this.
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Thank you for the reply, Policar. This is what I was afraid of.

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Policar said:
the Mk II brought the processing level up to the C300's (although also clearly changed the "look"--for the better).
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You mean that Canon refined the "look" of the C100 mark II to surpass the C300? Do you mind elaborating?

I'm a bit on the fence whether I should just get the C100 mark II + Ninja Star, or if i should pay the (now very reasonable) premium for the C300. Actually the only real reason I may want the C300 over the C100 mark II is the better internal codec. Not really sure what else the C300 brings to the table that the C100 II doesn't, since I don't need the outputs and connections that is.

One other thing I'm trying to find out about is if recording in slow motion on the C100 II to the Ninja Star, for example to 25P at 50 fps, If then the Ninja Star record this properly and give me 50 fps recorded as 25P. Anyone who know if this works properly?
 
More than enough testing has been done on this so getting a straight answer is actually pretty simple.

Externally recorded images between the c100/300 are IDENTICAL, from highlight retention down to noise patterns, same goes for color(c500 being the only exception with its wider color gamut). Internally is where there is a pretty big difference. With double the data rate, color resolution, processing power and a more robust codec it renders motion, shadows and noise with less artifacts and holds quite a bit more detail overall. If you examine a lot of the shadows and mid tones from internal C100 footage(especially underexposed), you'll see that you lose a fair amount of detail, and almost all of the "texture" that makes up the image(compared with external footage) due to the codec/data rate.

One of the best reasons to use an external recorder is that there is a variety of units that double as an accurate monitor as well(in my opinion the most valuable tool I own). The star looks good for aerial/portable setups, but I would never trust the internal LCD of a camera for anything more than composition(especially c100 mk1 or mk2). At the level they are being produced they just don't have the quality we need to judget exposure/color balances.

Have always preferred the LCD placement on the c300(top) as opposed to the c100(back), and you won't know which to prefer until you use them both. The c300's electronic ND filter is also much nicer than the c100's flimsy mechanical operation. Those things are really more of a preference, but if you don't need the genlock/sdi/internal codec of the c300, there really is no reason why you shouldn't pickup a c100 mk ii

AlexNOR said:
One other thing I'm trying to find out about is if recording in slow motion on the C100 II to the Ninja Star, for example to 25P at 50 fps, If then the Ninja Star record this properly and give me 50 fps recorded as 25P. Anyone who know if this works properly?
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The ninja star in its current configuration cannot record 50/60p, same goes for the current ninja blades. The shogun/Oddysey 7Q+ can
 
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LeoGrey said:
The c300's electronic ND filter is also much nicer than the c100's flimsy mechanical operation.
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Is the C100's ND system really "flimsy"? It seems pretty robust considering I've never even heard a single case of a C100 with a broken ND filter wheel... including the two I've owned/own (C100 and C100 Mark II)

It stands to reason that an ND filter setup that required electricity and motors would be less reliable than one that uses mechanical actuation.

The ninja star in its current configuration cannot record 50/60p due to its 1.3 hdmi connector, same goes for the current ninja blades. The shogun/Oddysey 7Q+ and anything else with an hdmi 2.0 spec have the needed bandwidth for 60p
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HDMI 1.3 has plenty of bandwidth for 1080p @ 60fps. HDMI 1.3 has bandwidth for 2160p @ 30fps.

HDMI 2.0 brings the ability to do 2160p (4K/UHD) at 60fps.

The limit on the Ninjas when it comes to 1080p60 is NOT the HDMI spec, it probably has more to do with the processing horsepower inside the units.
 
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jbregar said:
Is the C100's ND system really "flimsy"? It seems pretty robust considering I've never even heard a single case of a C100 with a broken ND filter wheel... including the two I've owned/own (C100 and C100 Mark II)
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Flimsy may have been the wrong word, clunky would probably better describe it. Say what you will about mechanical vs electronic, but I have heard MANY complaints about the mechanical operation of the ND filter wheel on the c100. Most times referring to the wheel not completely rotating the ND element out of frame, or it not setting properly covering the entire sensor. The higher priced c300's system is without a doubt the more refined system.

You are correct about the hdmi specs bandwidth, I was thinking about 4k
 
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And..you can't do playback on the Star in the field unless you have a separate monitor with you. We recommend the Ninja II or Blade for the C100 or MK II. The star is really more for drones.......

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com
 
Doesn't the fact that the Ninja Blade with the C100 can record 220 Mbps compared to the C300 of 50 Mbps produce a better image?
 
LeoGrey said:
Externally recorded images between the c100/300 are IDENTICAL, from highlight retention down to noise patterns, same goes for color(c500 being the only exception with its wider color gamut).
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Not according to Canon:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...00-mk-ii&p=1492815&highlight=c100#post1492815

They've openly admitted that the C100's internal processing was dumbed down. I don't have the eye to catch it, but I have used my C100 much more than the C300, whereas most of the guys on reduser are much higher end pros and would know the difference. Plus the fact that a Canon rep admitted it to him!
 
LeoGrey said:
The ninja star in its current configuration cannot record 50/60p, same goes for the current ninja blades. The shogun/Oddysey 7Q+ can
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I may be misunderstanding this, but...

The C100 Mark II manual states that "When recording an MP4 clip, the camcorder can record with a frame rate (shooting frame rate) that is different from the playback frame rate". This means I can set the C100 Mark II to 50.00P/25.00P, which gives me a recorded frame rate of 50.00P, but the clip will be played back at 25.00P giving me 50% slow motion.

Here is the bit from the manual that is confusing me:

C100_markII_HDMI-Out.jpg

Recording MP4, according to the table above, the HDMI can/will output 1080/50.00i at both 50.00P and 25.00P recording frame rates. Now, since the Ninja Star can do a 2:2 pulldown from 1080i50 to 25.00p, all in all does this not mean I can record slow motion to the Ninja Star?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. These technicalities are more confusing then enlightening to me.
 
You are not alone, I found this page confusing too.
This in-camera mpg- 'special recording' is not necassary for slow-mo, simply record in 50p and just do the rest in your NLE.
 
wuffer said:
Now, after you said it, I' can smell it, too.
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I can't tell much of a difference most of the time, but I know others who can. Again, I rarely use the C300 because I own the C100 and on multi-cam shoots they usually have different lenses so I haven't put them side-by-side in a controlled environment.

But it's certainly a discussion worth having. If anyone owns both and an external recorder I'd be curious to see some charts.
 
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I'd take stuff like this with a huge grain of salt until a proper test shows otherwise.

If someone uses Atomos ProRes for external recording (probably pretty popular) they have to be real careful and check if they suffer the same issued that surfaced in the AVCHD vs ProRes vs ProRes HQ, where ProRes was pretty much broken (but HQ fine).
 
AndreeOnline said:
I'd take stuff like this with a huge grain of salt until a proper test shows otherwise.

If someone uses Atomos ProRes for external recording (probably pretty popular) they have to be real careful and check if they suffer the same issued that surfaced in the AVCHD vs ProRes vs ProRes HQ, where ProRes was pretty much broken (but HQ fine).
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Agreed on the latter: Atomos seems to have broken implementations of ProRes codecs other than HQ.

On the former, a Canon rep confirmed it. If you want I could harass the user who had it confirmed to him, but why bother? He's sharing it out of curiosity, not self-interest. Again, I'm surprised, but a Canon rep confirmed that the C100 has dumb-down internal processing and inferior color. Still a solid camera.
 
wuffer said:
You are not alone, I found this page confusing too.
This in-camera mpg- 'special recording' is not necassary for slow-mo, simply record in 50p and just do the rest in your NLE.
Click to expand...

True, but would it then look right if you output it in "normal" mode (1080/50.00i instead of 1080/50.00p) though HDMI and had the Ninja Star do the 2:2 pulldown from 1080i50 to 25.00p?

I was trying to find out if it's possible to record slow motion to the Ninja Star from the C100 II even though the Star actually doesn't support 60p/50p recording.

-

That said, maybe I'll just spend the extra for the C300 instead. At least then I won't have to bother with the external recorder. Funny thing though, my dealer now includes a free Atomos Samurai Blade when you purchase the C300.
 
LeoGrey said:
Flimsy may have been the wrong word, clunky would probably better describe it. Say what you will about mechanical vs electronic, but I have heard MANY complaints about the mechanical operation of the ND filter wheel on the c100. Most times referring to the wheel not completely rotating the ND element out of frame, or it not setting properly covering the entire sensor. The higher priced c300's system is without a doubt the more refined system.

You are correct about the hdmi specs bandwidth, I was thinking about 4k
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that is indeed a question of opinion...I find the nd system on the c300 really annoying because it can be activated while accidentally pushing a tiny button....

whereas as on the c100 you know when you are putting an nd for sure. The sound and feel of the "click" is really sufficient to let you know when the wheel has fully rotated....feel more solid and reliable to me.
 
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