F55: Buying the F55 with about $80,000 in hands.

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Daomay

Well-known member
I am thinking about setting up a rentle business. I already have the FS700. I am about to sell my business which I should have about $80,000 all together plus my FS700.

Now my wife and friends think I am crazy again and you all know I spam the FS700 forum a fair bit because I don't very have a studio that shoot film or commercial. I bought the FS700 for so I could go out and shoot stuffs to gear up for my shot film and hopefully a feature film.

This started off as a hobby but it has turn into passion. In the last 5 months I have produce some pretty ok works with the FS700 with just the kit lens. I think I am ready to take my passion into a full-time job. I love being a restaurant owner because I love people....but along the way that little boy who has always wanted to be make a movie is about to have his dream come true.

Now I have listed what I was going to purchase here. Please any advise would be much appreciated.


[TABLE="width: 300"]
[TR]
[TD]F55[/TD]
[TD]28990[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]128 SONY SD Card x 2[/TD]
[TD]2778[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sony View Finder[/TD]
[TD]4930[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sony Battery x 3[/TD]
[TD]897[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sony Cinealta 4K Six Lens[/TD]
[TD]20,900[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]F55 Mattbox + Arri Rig[/TD]
[TD]1500[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tripod Miller Compass Solo 25[/TD]
[TD]3769[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sony AXS CR1 USB 3 Card Reader[/TD]
[TD]550[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD]64314[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Whats do you guys think?

I still have $15000 left as back-up

This is me an my friend Christian playing with a hire F5 over the weekend I love it.

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I say take that $60,000 and buy some gold and other commodies so that when inflation hits you will be wealthy. Keep the FS700 and go shoot your passion. Keep this in mind. "It's a rental, don't be gentle".
 
dustylense said:
I say take that $60,000 and buy some gold and other commodies so that when inflation hits you will be wealthy. Keep the FS700 and go shoot your passion. Keep this in mind. "It's a rental, don't be gentle".
Click to expand...

Good point but I will have insurance on my baby. If it is not being rent I can always go shoot commercial or short film for people to make some money on the side.
 
Daomay, you have some nice work on the 700 forum and i've been in a similar position to you in the past.

Ask yourself very carefully

- what is the market like you're in, much competition? There could be a glut of Epics, Scarlets etc,. Are your potential customers savvy enough to know the differences?
- consider the overheads and insurance of the operation very carefully. For example, what happens if the camera fails in the field? Where's the back up? One of the main reasons to rent is that backup if anything goes wrong. As a potential customer i'm not sure i'd rent from a company with one camera.

I decided against it, unless i had a lot more capital, but the rate at which kit changes it's a pretty cut throat business. It's also something that i think would be difficult to run as an aside to working creatively. Renting lenses for example seems more sensible.

Now on the other hand if you can afford the camera anyway, to have it laying around and perhaps rent it out to friends and people you know that would be fine.

I totally get camera lust, but i generally only buy something when i have the budget to know it's basically paid off immediately. Or that i can buy something and sell it when done and that works out cheaper than renting for a long period of time.

Unless you can buy the kit and not worry about it bringing income, i'd consider working on the business plan a bit more and testing the market so you're happy that it would work. Or carry on with a successful business and save up to buy it for yourself and not worry about it making you money. Really depends how you feel and what your market is like.

Also most rental companies would work on lease basis, they'd lease the kit and the rental comes in to pay off the lease, it's more of a cash flow juggling case. Perhaps you can use your successful business to underwrite a lease to start a new business?

cheers
paul
 
paulcurtis said:
Daomay, you have some nice work on the 700 forum and i've been in a similar position to you in the past.

Ask yourself very carefully

- what is the market like you're in, much competition? There could be a glut of Epics, Scarlets etc,. Are your potential customers savvy enough to know the differences?
- consider the overheads and insurance of the operation very carefully. For example, what happens if the camera fails in the field? Where's the back up? One of the main reasons to rent is that backup if anything goes wrong. As a potential customer i'm not sure i'd rent from a company with one camera.

I decided against it, unless i had a lot more capital, but the rate at which kit changes it's a pretty cut throat business. It's also something that i think would be difficult to run as an aside to working creatively. Renting lenses for example seems more sensible.

Now on the other hand if you can afford the camera anyway, to have it laying around and perhaps rent it out to friends and people you know that would be fine.

I totally get camera lust, but i generally only buy something when i have the budget to know it's basically paid off immediately. Or that i can buy something and sell it when done and that works out cheaper than renting for a long period of time.

Unless you can buy the kit and not worry about it bringing income, i'd consider working on the business plan a bit more and testing the market so you're happy that it would work. Or carry on with a successful business and save up to buy it for yourself and not worry about it making you money. Really depends how you feel and what your market is like.

Also most rental companies would work on lease basis, they'd lease the kit and the rental comes in to pay off the lease, it's more of a cash flow juggling case. Perhaps you can use your successful business to underwrite a lease to start a new business?

cheers
paul
Click to expand...

Paul, thanks you so much for your input same go to Dusty. The $80,000 is from my own pocket and my source of income will come from renting out my equipment and perhaps shooting a few short film for people or doing commercial with someone who already has a establish a company that does high end commercial. At the moment I working 6 days a weeks at the restaurant. I don't have time to go shooting as much as I would like and once I sell the business I can focus on my video rental business and enjoy filming when it is not being rent. Here in Australia there is a demand for my camera. I won't be charging big $ for what those big company will be charging but instead I am hoping to be more competitive then RED or ARRI. I am still deciding what my options are but I think it is the right path :-) On a side note. It make me happy.
 
dustylense said:
You can do that with your FS700 too.
Click to expand...

I have already made my money back from renting out the FS700 in the last 5 months. I am very happy Dusty...I just want to take it to the next level and take this hobby of my more seriously.
 
To buy gold and sit on it is a good way to ensure financial stability but not that fun to play with. The best investment if you shoot for a living or run a rental business is to invest in things that will last a long time. Tripods, lighting equipment, monitors, grip and such. Then start to look at lenses and last purchase a camera.
 
Daomay said:
On a side note. It make me happy.
Click to expand...

Perhaps that's the main thing really :)

If you know people that would rent it and you've managed to rent your 700 successfully then it may well make sense for you in your area. Good luck either way.

Does the F55 price include the recorder already?

As an aside if you're looking on a personal level i'd consider investing in some decent lighting kit if you have money left over

cheers
Paul
 
Daomay said:
I have already made my money back from renting out the FS700 in the last 5 months. I am very happy Dusty...I just want to take it to the next level and take this hobby of my more seriously.
Click to expand...

Making your money back over 5 months is one thing, earning a daiy living via rentals is all together a different animal. One thing that I have noticed is that some of the largest rental companies in the US have shut their doors due to the changing rental scene with the market flooded with very very cheap high end camera rentals. Folks like you, who purchase an expensive camera thinking if I buy it they will come. Then dropping their rental rates to ultra low prices as they try to compete with the other low ballers.

If you are serious about this then I would do a market analysis and put together a business plan before I invested a dime.

Just out of curiosity, how many rentals will it take to pay off this new say $70K camera package, before you start to earn income from it?

Something else to think about, is how quickly new better cameras come to market making your current camera passé. The Sony F35 sold new for $250K just 3 years ago, now you can buy one used for $10K.

But hey, you know your market better than we do. They may be lined up in your neighborhood waiting to rent an F55.

All the best!

Dave
 
I feel you. I keep futzing around with different business plans to get into shooting full time. I've not considered renting as an option except a side business renting a PD-1 dolly. For some reason they are pretty scarce around here. I'd be worried about a camera and the big guys in rentals have backups and support and the ability to customize. Suppose someone wants a different lens package? The costs to production are on the day. Anything to make the day successful is worth the money so if it means paying a little more for a camera body, that's just a fraction of the cost.

By the way, is renting a camera the business you want to be in? If so, is it meant to subsidize your passion for shooting? In that case, I'd propose that the business you want to be in is owner/operator. Maybe I'm projecting... sorry.

Anyway, if you have people renting your 700 and you do the math and you can project from your success there that your renting the F55 is viable, then knock 'em dead!
 
If you're running a business you should secure a low leasing rate and that way write off 100% of your payments versus buying it outright and claiming the deprepriation instead which will take much longer to "write off" the camera. I understand if you're paying "cash" and buying outright it seems better, but why outlay your equity if you don't need to. Look at your tax bracket, potential annual earnings and do the math using different scenarios.

As for rentals, depending where you live you may be hard pressed to push an F55 where many may already be happy with what they can get from an Epic. Your rental rate may then only be the same Epic price at best if that's the case.
 
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What you're talking about is what I did back in the early '80's. I had dabbled in some lower end cameras and decided to take the plunge into a high end camera(Ikegami HL-79). That camera made it possible for me to make a great ROI and launch my rental business. But that was over 30 years ago. Today, we have cameras that are considered good enough for professionals costing $800-$3000(GH2, 5D2, AF100, BMCC). The camera department has been democratized, just as post has been.

In my market, it's hard to get a normal rate for an Alexa, very few shoot ArriRaw or even S-Log with an F3. PL-mount Cine lenses are being undercut by Canon EF stills glass. GoPros are being used as B-cameras for interviews. Available light seems to be the new G&E package.

As a rental house owner, in my market, I would have a very hard time justifying the cost of an F55 over an F5. Not sure clients would pay much more than $100-$150 more per day for a camera that costs almost twice as much as an F5. I used to be able to depend on an 8 year rental life from my cameras, now getting two years of viable rental life seems a luxury.

Like the restaurant business, the hours required to run a rental house are very long and unpredictable. Profits have to be reinvested constantly into new gear. The ROI of any piece of equipment takes a back seat to normal overhead costs, such as marketing, maintenance, insurance, accounting, transportation and labor for deliveries, sub-rentals, etc.

What I found out early on was that, yes, I had access to some great gear, but going out to shoot for myself just wasn't the priority I had expected. Any rental house is competing directly with every owner/operator who doesn't need to stay up with the newest gear to the same extent. Finally, what I've found in the age of HD vs. the days of BETACAM, is there is no one camera that people ask for or codec or lens type. A rental house has to stock several different cameras, formats, lenses. We have 1/3", 1/2", 2/3", micro 4/3" and S35 cameras with around six codecs, and every week somebody asks for a camera we don't offer.

Starting a rental house today would not be for the feint of heart and is not the easiest path towards doing personal projects, IMO.
 
Daomay, I honestly think if you want to be a film maker you should go about it a different way and focus on making films, videos and other project to add to your portfolio as opposed to doing rentals.

Here's my story. I've been working in TV in Los Angeles for 12 years, mostly as a director / designer / animator for Motion graphics and VFX spots. I started shooting seriously 4 years ago (first 7D and now FS700) and have shot quite a few free / low budget spots for my portfolio and ONLY in the last year have I actually started getting decent paying gigs. After 4 years, I still feel like I have a LOT to learn, but I guess some producers have liked my work enough to bring me onto bigger jobs. I finally got a good break and DP'd 3 spots for the SyFy Channel (real client, decent budget, full crew, etc..., a legit shoot), but that was after 4 years of busting my ass, working for free and learning as much as possible.

Like I said, I'm starting to get DP work, but I still have a ton to learn and I've paid my dues and still have way more to pay. Fortunately for me, I have the Motion Graphics / VFX stuff which pays really well and is easy to get work so I have a lot more time to shoot and not worry about money than the average person.

But yeah, I think you would be better off just going about it the traditional way, really learning about filming, directing, working in productions and most importantly, making good projects for your portfolio. To me, there's nothing worse than a guy with money who just buys a camera, but really knows nothing about filmmaking.

Maybe instead of selling your business and facing a very uncertain future, just try and work less and start shifting your time for working with people who are involved in entertainment and try to make cohesive projects. There's a big difference between going out and shooting a bunch of B-Roll and stitching it together vs. making a cohesive project with a concept and an A to B point.
 
I know things are much different outside of my area, but...

Be very careful about getting into the rental business, especially as a beginner. If you are in an area with existing rental companies, your chances are very low you will be able to take business from them unless you can beat them on ALL fronts. Price is one part of the equation. Having everything a renter needs is another, probably more important part. In my area, having everything in one trip is super important.

Los Angeles is saturated with small, one-man rental operations with incredibly low prices. The gear is almost always thrashed.

I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying talk to a good amount of people about what they want and need, and see if it meshes with what you can do. If you don't have contacts to talk to about this, then...be doubly careful.

I say this all because I would hate to see you lose $20-30K giving this a go and then having to get out because it was not what you thought it would be. I don't want to be that crusty old fart raining on your parade. I just encourage you to be realistic.

If you DO decide to give it a go, make it a given that you will have to spend a good amount of effort, time, and some money marketing what you have. The gear will NOT rent itself. Repeat that. The gear will NOT rent itself. :thumbsup:
 
Boy, what a wealth of great information and experience flows from this forum and the members. It's amazing, so much to agree with, so much that spins one's thinking in directions you've never considered. Incredibly valuable advice.

My only contribution to this particular thread is to agree wholeheartedly that the camera rental game and the ROI just isn't what it used to be, nowhere near and anyone putting a toe in those waters has to be really careful. I wouldn't do it myself that's for sure. Even Grip and Lighting companies are having a very hard time now. Cameras can almost see in the dark, you can light with practicals, ( wouldn't Kubrick loved these times ), budgets and crews are bare bones so grip is more and more pared down.

Back in the late 80's and through the 90's and early 2000's I spent a lot of $$$$'s on my film gear, a few 100's of $K's.......In 15 years I guess I only "upgraded" twice. But I got my ROI sorted within a couple of years at the end of which the cameras had lost very little capital value until very recently when digital chewed film's chair leg off.

Now as we well know it's a way different kettle of fish. Look at our F3's, and ahead to the 5 / 55's in two years time. I bet they'll be well down in value too as the next camera looms over the hill.

Wild times....
 
^ Yes we certainly live in dangerous times. Here's a bit of a history lesson taken from one of my blog entries:

• October 15th marketing manager Peter Crithary for Super 35mm acquisition and technologies at Sony Electronics, USA first tweeted “Ahead of schedule. October 30, 2012. The New F”.

• October 14th only one day eariler @ 10:14pm EST RED announces a truckload of RED Scarlets for over 40% off the retail price of $13,400 USD. That’s right, a “newish” RED Scarlet for $7100 including side SSD module, Canon AL Mount, and power supply while supplies last.

• October 26th 2012 @ 10:39pm Jim Jannard posted a thread: “Everything Changes… Important Post” announcing price drops on the RED EPIC to be announced on November 1st, 2012.

• October 30th 2012 - The New F revealed.

• November 1st 2012 - RED shaves $15k off the EPIC and thousands off Scarlet.

• Feb 20 2012 - RED sues Sony. (completely non-relavent, but lol I had to throw this in here!!!)


It goes without saying, anything can happen. When I decided to get the F55 there was no real rational "ROI" behind it. I wanted the camera and my F3 more than paid for itself. I bought a RED and dumped it when Sony announced the new F's. All I ever wanted was a better camera that could produce more cinematic and film-like images which could undergo extensive grading. I did it for me more than anyone or anything else.
 
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Lots of excellent advice here that only a fool would ignore.
My contribution would come as a business owner outside of this specific film/video biz. When I started my biz it was a part time project. i paid the bills with my day job as an animator. After 18 months my biz grew to the point where it could replace my day job income. It took time and I was a known commodity/expert in the arena where I started my business.

In the time it takes to build up a viable business with a good revenue stream you need to pay your bills (and seriously look into ways to reduce your expense while you're at it). If you sell your restaurant and have $80k in hand, strongly consider using that as your safety net to get you through the rough initial stages of your business. You're gonna need that money to keep feeding the family for a while. Dennis' advice about seeking a lease is good. Yes, you can buy the camera, and that's nice, but $15k is not enough of a cushion to get you through that first year or two where things are taking time to ramp up. I'd say lease the camera first and save your $80k to make sure you can stay in this long enough to realize your dream. If you run out of operating cash you're gonna have to sell your camera at a loss and that will set you back from your dream more than taking a more steady approach would.

Good luck!
 
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