But this actually is the beginning of the end, right?

[kevinottawa]

No way will they have a large sensor, interchangeable-lens, professional video camera before October 2011. A hundred bucks says so.

Canon 5D MII
Where is the 100, and better make it Can $.
A thing is what it is used for, you hit someone with a car, its assault with a deadly weapon, even though a car is not a weapon.
So since so many professionals are using it as a video camera (If Film = Film and Video = Digital), it is a professional camera, that just so happens to have a large sensor, and interchangeable lens'

 

[daveswan]

I agree the appeal is image quality vs price with the DLSR thing. Question is where the price becomes to high? A 5D body is not a cheap DSLR and a 1D IV is in the same ballpark as the AG-AF100.

A 5DII (<£,1700) is an enthusiast-affordable DSLR, the 1D IV is a Pro DSLR, both of which do things a sight better than the AG-F100 ever will, namely high resolution 14 bit RAW stills. It's what they're made for. The video is just an afterthought.

Dave

 

[d1rockwild]

I think the reason a few people are a little bothered by the $6k price tag is that many people have been, more realistically thinking of the next GH1. Then the AF100 comes out, which is basically the next step up from the GH1 and so a lot of people are like "awww, i wanted a GH2 announced, instead."

That's a fair reaction. The GH1 is popular because of its video capabilities and price. People are looking forward to its successor and (until the GH2 is announced) it feels like the AF100.

So yeah the GH2 will come, sooner or later, but the AF100 has simply left the little guys feeling left in the dust. I'm one of those who are basically saying "damn, its just too expensive for me." I'm just hoping the GH2 (or whatever it ends up being called) will have the improvements that seem to be the most popular:
- extended audio features (agc disable, headphone jack, audio meter)
- improved codec.

i know the gh1 and af100 are coming from different departments, but its the same company. You have to figure whoever is overseeing the departments make sure the consumer department doesn't step on the broadcasting department's toes. And that's what i'm worried about: the GH1 successor being minimally upgraded because of the AF100.

These are just thoughts and ideas, not strong opinions. So please, cool it.

 

[NextWaveG]

Then the AF100 comes out, which is basically the next step up from the GH1

Which is where everyone who thinks that is wrong. It's not at all the "next step up from a GH1". It's the next step up from an HVX200...a professional video camera that sits in the $6K price bracket.

 

[d1rockwild]

Which is where everyone who thinks that is wrong. It's not at all the "next step up from a GH1". It's the next step up from an HVX200...a professional video camera that sits in the $6K price bracket.

Yeah it's definitely the upgrade for the HVX200. But the AF100 is the next step up without losing any qualities the GH1 has. Until the GH2 is inevitably announced and released, if you have a GH1 and you want the next available best thing from Panasonic it is the AF100. I see what you're saying that the GH1 and AF100 are in totally different leagues, but what I'm saying is, this is what Panasonic has so far (among others):

-GH1
-HVX200
-AF100 (announced)

If you own a GH1 and want the next best thing that Panasonic has, without losing what you like about the GH1, the next step (albeit a big one) is the AF100. You know what I'm saying? The AF100 is the next step up simply because, at this point in time, there isn't anything else (from Panasonic).

 

[GRENCH]

For you, maybe. But for those of us who do it for a living, it's pennies.

I agree totally. We are forgetting that we shelled out $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 for that HVX200 a few years ago. This camera has everything I can ask for at a price that if I work hard enough I can obtain by the time it is released. Until then I will not be eating at P.F. Changs for a little while. We have gotten so spoiled haven't we. DSLR was a gift. Use it and make some money. After the Zacuto shoot out I thought alot more people would be just going for it. I'm not saying this to single anyone out but I remember wishing for a camera like this three years ago and now it is almost here. I say prepare for the opportunity.

 

[Chamber005]

I think the Panny is interesting and does change things - compare it to a Sony EX1

chip is 4X larger and lenses are removable

Where else (excluding DSLR) do you get that

The EX3 they charge you half again for the privilage of taking the lens off

In terms of that $6k tag, once you pimp up a DSLR, buy a sound recorder etc $6k is not that much more IMO - throw in the reduced hassle of multiple battery systems etc of a DSLR system and the price jump is very justifiable - my almost functioning DSLR will have cost at least $6k

At least when that DSLR fails or a better one comes out most of that $6k stays with me

S

This, to me, is everything that's relevant with regards the AF100. In almost every thread pretty much everyone agrees that the EX line is the best VIDEO camera under 10K. People have their favorites, but I've found the consensus is that the EX1/3/1R are the faves for the under 10K video cam spot.

This camera, I feel, competes directly against the Mark 5DII, yeah, but moreso it's an answer to the EX line (and apparently beats it on price, [your] glass and chip size).

The only thing that I'm not clear on is the mbps of the AF100. Is it really only 24mbps? The EX line is 35mbps, right? I'm not a tech guy so I don't know exactly what difference the extra mbps make (especially with the larger chip in the AF100), but I know if I take my consumer camera and move it from 24mbps down to, say, 12mbps, the image suffers dramatically.

I think it's important, though, to recognize the AF100 as a competitor to the EX line, because I don't believe Sony's newest 35mm cam is going to compete at the AF100's price point. I think the newest Sony is an answer to the RED-level cameras and will end up being priced accordingly. Canon's newest cam, though, I think we can safely assume will stay in-step with Panny as they have in the past on their video cams.

 

[cap10kirk]

I say prepare for the opportunity.

Amen, brother. I for one will be shooting those $1000 music videos and saving my rear off.:thumbsup:

 

[Barry_Green]

How much you want for that Barry? I want one as a B cam (serious question btw)

Make an offer via PM. It's the $1999 kit, with 18-135 lens, two batteries, and whatever the filter is that they include with it.

 

[Barry_Green]

Canon 5D MII

The Canon 5D Mark II is not a professional video camera. It is a consumer still camera. Canon has a professional video camera division, which makes the XLH1s, XHA1s, and XF300 series. That's what we're talking about.

So since so many professionals are using it as a video camera (If Film = Film and Video = Digital), it is a professional camera, that just so happens to have a large sensor, and interchangeable lens'

Words have meaning -- if they didn't, society and communication would collapse. Go over to www.canondv.com, and see what Canon thinks the meaning of "professional video camera" means. You won't see the 5D Mark II listed there.

 

[Barry_Green]

Yeah it's definitely the upgrade for the HVX200. But the AF100 is the next step up without losing any qualities the GH1 has.

Well, no, that's not true -- it loses several things the GH1 has. It loses the tiny form factor, it loses the ability to shoot stills, and I wouldn't be surprised if it loses things like autofocus face tracking.

 

[Barry_Green]

The only thing that I'm not clear on is the mbps of the AF100. Is it really only 24mbps? The EX line is 35mbps, right?

The Panasonic's 24mbps is better than the EX's 35mbps.

We usually use car analogies to compare to cameras, so I'll do it again -- which would you rather have, a V8 or a V6? Lots of people would say "gimme the V8". But what if I then clarified by saying "well, we're talking about a 1956 V8 that makes 112 horsepower and gets 3mpg, or a 2010 V6 that makes 300 horsepower and gets 36mpg." Do you still want the V8?

Sony uses 35 megabits of 1990's-era MPEG-2, Panasonic uses 24 megabits of 2008-era AVC h.264. Side by side I've tested them, and there's no question but that the Panasonic codec is stronger, more robust, and just plain better.

 

[ydgmdlu]

I think the reason a few people are a little bothered by the $6k price tag is that many people have been, more realistically thinking of the next GH1. Then the AF100 comes out, which is basically the next step up from the GH1 and so a lot of people are like "awww, i wanted a GH2 announced, instead."

I still don't understand the complaint, because the AF100 is not a replacement for the GH2. Canon just announced a new line of tapeless prosumer camcorders. Should HV40 owners complain about the new cameras' price just because an HV50 wasn't announced instead? NAB isn't the place to announce something like the GH2 anyway.

That's a fair reaction. The GH1 is popular because of its video capabilities and price. People are looking forward to its successor and (until the GH2 is announced) it feels like the AF100.

It's actually a fulfillment of what many of us predicted as everyone got used to the idea of using DSLRs as video cameras: People without a whole lot of money came to expect "professional" cameras to cost a whole lot less than they used to cost. But that's where an inappropriate perspective has taken hold. Many people (myself included) lusted after prosumer camcorders like the EX1, HVX200/HPX170/HMC150, Z1U, and XH-A1/XL-H1 for the best image quality at a barely affordable price. Then when the 5D/7D and GH1 came along, they took the places of the above camcorders in people's minds. So expectations changed. But a GH1 was never meant to be an EX1 competitor or replacement. The AF100 fits that bill much better.

Note that the only people complaining about the $6K price are those who have never been used to paying in that ballpark for professional video equipment.

i know the gh1 and af100 are coming from different departments, but its the same company.

Actually Panasonic Consumer and Panasonic Broadcast are two separate companies. They live in the same corporation, but you shouldn't expect them to have anything to do with each other. Do people get upset when Lexus announces products that leave Toyota's offerings in the dust? Lexus and Toyota are subsidiaries of the Toyota Corporation. But as everyone knows, Lexus is the luxury brand, while Toyota is the mainstream brand. Similarly, Taco Bell, KFC, and Pizza Hut are all subsidiaries of Yum! Brands, but do they have anything to do with each other? No, they operate completely independently, and so we shouldn't expect the bosses at Yum! to be directing each brand with the others in mind. That's not how it works.

 

[Richard J. Johnson]

Damn you Buzz.

 

[David G. Smith]

Words have meaning -- if they didn't, society and communication would collapse. Go over to www.canondv.com, and see what Canon thinks the meaning of "professional video camera" means. You won't see the 5D Mark II listed there.

That link also helps put the price question in to perspective. The flagship Canon "Professional" video camera, the XL-H1S, a 1/3" HDV camera has a MSRP of $8999.00. Does the $6000.00 for the AF100 really sound all that expensive compared to THAT?

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=175&modelid=17035

 

[ydgmdlu]

Well, I guess you could throw me in the"good enough" camp. I see what other industry professionals are doing and it satisfies them, and they have worked with film for decades, so I'll take their seal of approval and go with it.

This is a bit ironic, given that you've said that the reason why you had delayed your switch from film photography to digital photography, long after everyone else, was because you didn't think that the digital image was good enough until fairly recently.

Furthermore, why do you need the seal of approval of industry professionals, instead of just trusting your eyes?

Now, I don't even have a fraction of their skill set, but I've always subscribed to "What one man can do, another can do".

Sorry to be snarky, but can you do what Einstein, Mozart, Shakespeare, etc. could do?

I'm always interested in uncomprising image quality, and your tests are invaluable, but users will have to compare the tests with the results in the real world.

Barry's tests have specifically been intended to highlight real-world issues.

The tests are just a stress test anyway, pushing the technology to the breaking point.

But the problems are easily reproduced in real-world production environments, not just extreme circumstances. There has been plenty of testimony to this fact in these forums.

 

[d1rockwild]

Well, no, that's not true -- it loses several things the GH1 has. It loses the tiny form factor, it loses the ability to shoot stills, and I wouldn't be surprised if it loses things like autofocus face tracking.

Sure, but my point was that at this moment in time, the announced AF100 is the next upgrade to be available if you want more video capabilities as a GH1 owner. My opinion is most people who want more control are not going (even if they should) to get the HVX200 coming from a GH1. And maybe the should, but I don't think most people will. As of now, they see the GH1 and the AF100. I mean, cut people a little slack, the GH1 is the best m4/3 camera out for video. Now it'll be the AF100. You're gonna get people who want it, even if they can't afford it. Not that I mean to defend the complainers of the AF 100's price tag, i'm just understanding.

I still don't understand the complaint, because the AF100 is not a replacement for the GH2. Canon just announced a new line of tapeless prosumer camcorders. Should HV40 owners complain about the new cameras' price just because an HV50 wasn't announced instead? NAB isn't the place to announce something like the GH2 anyway.

Definitely. But the AF100 and GH1 are both video enabled m4/3 cameras. And that's already a very small group of cameras in comparison to the category that HV40 is in, which is vaguely what?: HD video, progressive frames, consumer level/price, semi-manual controls. There's plenty of cameras that fit that bill.

It's actually a fulfillment of what many of us predicted as everyone got used to the idea of using DSLRs as video cameras: People without a whole lot of money came to expect "professional" cameras to cost a whole lot less than they used to cost. But that's where an inappropriate perspective has taken hold. Many people (myself included) lusted after prosumer camcorders like the EX1, HVX200/HPX170/HMC150, Z1U, and XH-A1/XL-H1 for the best image quality at a barely affordable price. Then when the 5D/7D and GH1 came along, they took the places of the above camcorders in people's minds. So expectations changed. But a GH1 was never meant to be an EX1 competitor or replacement. The AF100 fits that bill much better.

Note that the only people complaining about the $6K price are those who have never been used to paying in that ballpark for professional video equipment.

I agree.

Actually Panasonic Consumer and Panasonic Broadcast are two separate companies. They live in the same corporation, but you shouldn't expect them to have anything to do with each other. Do people get upset when Lexus announces products that leave Toyota's offerings in the dust? Lexus and Toyota are subsidiaries of the Toyota Corporation. But as everyone knows, Lexus is the luxury brand, while Toyota is the mainstream brand. Similarly, Taco Bell, KFC, and Pizza Hut are all subsidiaries of Yum! Brands, but do they have anything to do with each other? No, they operate completely independently, and so we shouldn't expect the bosses at Yum! to be directing each brand with the others in mind. That's not how it works.

Well hey, I hope you're right. I mean, I doubt you really know the inner workings of Yum! but I hope you're right.

 

[ydgmdlu]

Or is it the rapid-growing narrative indie-filmmakers (read that as "relatively" broke) that bought a DVX, then a DOF adapter, then a video-capable DSLR, etc. now wanting a real video-cam version of the current tech that pushed the birth of this product?

From the pulse of all of the online banter from the last year or so, the product looks kind of geared toward the latter. And, at that, 6k seems like a high street compared to what was able to be delivered from their consumer division.

Again, perspective. Maybe you haven't been around a lot of no-budget indie productions, but in the days when DOF adapters were popular (you know, right before DSLRs), people were used to paying several thousand dollars for a barebones kit.

Question: What are, and have been, the most popular cameras for indie narrative filmmakers, aside from DSLRs now? Let's see...

Sony: PD150/PD170, HDR-FX1/HVR-Z1U, HVR-V1U, PMW-EX1
Canon: GL2, XL1/XL2, XH-A1, XL-H1
Panasonic: DVX100, HVX200/HPX170, HMC150

What were the MSRPs of those cameras? $3000-8000
What about DOF adapters? Redrock Micro, Brevis35, Letus, SGpro, and P+S Technik offerings ranged from $1000-5000.

What about filmmakers who just couldn't afford all of that? They either rented gear, or they got themselves cheap consumer camcorders (such as the HV20) and built their own DOF adapters (at ~$200 cost).

So really, how has the landscape changed? The AF100 fits right alongside those esteemed cameras named above and does an arguably better job than the commercial DOF adapters. People who don't have the money will continue to use DSLRs, just like how they managed with the workable HV20 plus DIY adapter combo.

 

[NextWaveG]

^ +1

I think you bring up a good point though. Let's make an analogy out of this.

GH1 is to AF100 as HV20 w/ DOF adapter is to XH-A1 w/ DOF adapter

I think this may help people understand price points and quality difference better. I and others have done paying gigs with an HV20 and DOF adapter. But there was a drastic improvement when I upgraded to an XH-A1. And now, I wouldn't feel comfortable with just my HV20 for a paid shoot. I think the same goes with the DSLR vs. video camera debate.

 

[ydgmdlu]

Sure, but my point was that at this moment in time, the announced AF100 is the next upgrade to be available if you want more video capabilities as a GH1 owner.

The proper analogy for the leap from the GH1 to the AF100 is the leap from an HV40 to an XF300 (Canon's new tapeless model).

My opinion is most people who want more control are not going (even if they should) to get the HVX200 coming from a GH1. And maybe the should, but I don't think most people will. As of now, they see the GH1 and the AF100. I mean, cut people a little slack, the GH1 is the best m4/3 camera out for video. Now it'll be the AF100.

But, as a video camera, the AF100 does things far, FAR beyond what the GH1 or any other DSLR can do. Therefore, it should cost far, FAR more. Did the GH1 do things, as a video camera, far beyond what more expensive camcorders could do? No; its only advantages were its big sensor and interchangeable lenses. Everything else was far inferior. Again, it's just like the HV40 vs. the XF300. Why should I, or anyone, cut people slack?

You're gonna get people who want it, even if they can't afford it. Not that I mean to defend the complainers of the AF 100's price tag, i'm just understanding.

Of course people lust after the more expensive gear. It's just better. When I had an XH-A1, before the "DSLR revolution," I lusted after the EX1. But I didn't complain about the EX1's pricing, even though it was hard to swallow.

I mean, I doubt you really know the inner workings of Yum! but I hope you're right.

Maybe you don't know this, but virtually all corporation-subsidiary relationships work the same way, in every sector. It's about money more than business practices or philosophies. Parent companies exist to make money off of child companies, and most of the time, that's all that they do.

If you've seen the documentary The Corporation, you'll know that corporations are treated as legal persons. To extend the metaphor further, think of a corporation as a stock investor, and its child companies are like its stock portfolio. Remember that shareholders, as (technically) owners of pieces of a firm, exert some influence on the practices of the firm but rarely exercise direct control (the only case being corporate takeovers by major investors). A corporation also rarely interferes with the practices of its subsidiaries and only takes action to improve their performance, in a general sense. So the corporation is not going to dictate what products to make or how to cross-pollinate products across brands.

Do you know what the parent company of Paramount Pictures and CBS? It's National Amusements, which is a private-owned movie theater chain. So what does a movie theater company know about the actual business of making movies and broadcast television? Of course not much. But that's not the point. Paramount's movies and CBS's shows are not micromanaged by National Amusements.