David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
I get a real kick out of folks that talk about the Scarlet in the present tense.
But this actually is the beginning of the end, right?
- Thread starter Chamber005
- Start date
ZazaCast
Major Contributor
:thumbsup:
Dude what are you doing here. Its all about cams that don't exist.
... which will still outrank the Panasonic in picture quality and functuality.
+ I can upgrade later to a S35 brain for around 7k (maybe cheaper by then) and keep all the accessories I got with the Fixed Scarlet (for 5k) and use my Canon lenses
...Barry_Green
Moderator
Because that's really slowed down the adoption of the DSLRs...
<sigh>
Sometimes it's impossible to keep up. I point out that the line-skipping produces aliasing and moire, and people react with a firestorm thinking I'm trying to kill the indie film revolution or something. So now a manufacturer announces what appears to be the ideal holy grail, and the first thing people say is "oh, but it better not line-skip!"
For the record, I hope it doesn't line-skip as well. I want a real, properly down-converted sensor. But I also am absolutely certain that this will produce superior video to ANY DSLR. So the question folks have to face is: either line-skipping is good enough, or it's not.
If it's good enough (for House and Bloom and SXSW) then it's good enough.
If it's not good enough, then y'all should be joining with me when I say that it's not good enough.
And if it's "good enough for the price" (which is the stance I've eventually had to come around to) then people should get off my back when I say that the DSLR is not a destination people should be aspiring to, but instead it's a compromise that we put up with because of its incredibly cheap price.
A huge advantage (to me) of the Scarlet, over the DSLRs, is that it is a non-line-skipping chip.
It's premature to say it's the "only true non-line-skip chip" though, because Panasonic has not clarified that issue.
We don't know whether the Panasonic will line-skip or not. What we do know is that they've already said they're going to provide proper video processing, proper downscaling, proper hardware etc. They've already said they're going to solve the aliasing/moire problem. So if you got video that's as good as the best of the DSLRs at their best, and avoids all the problems of the DSLRs, are you really going to say "well, yeah, but I'm still not going to buy it because internally it line-skips"?
A year ago I'd say that was a reasonable argument. But the adoption of the DSLRs and their incredibly compromised imaging has taught me that people really just don't care that much. The "good enough" revolution is in full swing.
With all that said, I very much hope that this unit uses a designed-for-video sensor that avoids all DSLR problems and doesn't "line-skip". I'm hoping that they pixel-bin those 14 megapixels together into larger mega-sized pixels that deliver better low-light sensitivity while still delivering full 1080p performance (which, they've already said it'll have, full 1080p performance). From what they're saying, it's going to have full 1080p without aliasing. If that's the case, does it really matter whether it skips lines or not, as long as the final image looks fantastic (and is problem-free)? The DSLRs can produce final images that look fantastic, but also can be quite problematical too. This should look fantastic and avoid all problems, even if it line-skips.
I just don't understand how line-skipping is appropriate for a $5,000 1DMkIV DSLR but it's a death knell for a $6,000 digital cinema camera, especially when they've already said that the problems that line-skipping causes, are already solved.
Absolutely agreed.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Wow -- a proclamation of fact, based on comparing one unreleased camera against another unreleased camera...
Seems a bit premature to make such proclamations, doesn't it?
NextWaveG
Well-known member
Seriously, what are people's deals with the $6k price point?!
Anyone who complains about the price has been spoiled by t2i and Flip cameras. Yeah they're great for basic stuff, but not professional stuff.
$6k is a STEAL for a camera like this. Look at the EX3. $10k for a sensor that is a fraction of the size. Look at the HVX200 when it first came out. About the same price and didn't have interchangeable lenses.
Let me say this loud and clear:
A 4/3 sensor VIDEO camera that has interchangeable lenses that is anywhere south of $15k is a bargain. The fact that it's going to be around $6k is a frickin' STEAL!
This is why I love this industry. Inspiration influences ingenuity!
Anyone who complains about the price has been spoiled by t2i and Flip cameras. Yeah they're great for basic stuff, but not professional stuff.
$6k is a STEAL for a camera like this. Look at the EX3. $10k for a sensor that is a fraction of the size. Look at the HVX200 when it first came out. About the same price and didn't have interchangeable lenses.
Let me say this loud and clear:
A 4/3 sensor VIDEO camera that has interchangeable lenses that is anywhere south of $15k is a bargain. The fact that it's going to be around $6k is a frickin' STEAL!
This is why I love this industry. Inspiration influences ingenuity!
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Ben_B
Veteran
... which will still outrank the Panasonic in picture quality and functuality.
+ I can upgrade later to a S35 brain for around 7k (maybe cheaper by then) and keep all the accessories I got with the Fixed Scarlet (for 5k) and use my Canon lenses
I would buy the Scarlet might have more functuality but that's because I don't know what that is and you seem to. However, I would wager that the Panasonic will have greater functionality.
Are things fun in your realieality?
You're talking about a camera that has been nothing but spec sheets, mockups, and renders, from a company that has released one camera, and regularly pushes back already vague dates. This spec sheet has been constantly changing for years now.
On the other hand, Panasonic is an established company that has released dozens if not hundreds of cameras in its history, and also typically meets its production schedule.
Chamber005
Carbonite Member
+ 1
I'm not people I'm me. These vdslr cams are a compromise The moment someone comes out with a non line skipped camera at the same price point everyone will dump these dslrs. Maybe most won't admit but if they've seen the limitations and worked the footage in post, they know in their hearts its a compromise. Sigh..The reason they've been accepted is because there is nothing else in this price point that do what these cams do.
Now Panasonic has tripled the price and yeah it better not skip.
Its not premature to say its the only true non line skipped chip. The new Myserium x is out now and working and its what RED says the scarlet will have. Talking about the scarlet and the pansonic maybe premature but the RED chip, no.
Nope, for some people the DSLR they have now will be good enough for quite a while.
NextWaveG
Well-known member
I love my 5D and plan to keep it even after I purchase a AF100. I take pictures with it too! And it's nice to have the small form factor sometimes.
But the AF100 is the next evolution in indie filmmaking video cameras. Why is this so hard for some people to get?!
It started with the DVX100 which had 24p...then evolved to the HVX200 which had HD...and now the AF100 which has a 4/3" sensor. And these all started roughly in the same price bracket.
But the AF100 is the next evolution in indie filmmaking video cameras. Why is this so hard for some people to get?!
It started with the DVX100 which had 24p...then evolved to the HVX200 which had HD...and now the AF100 which has a 4/3" sensor. And these all started roughly in the same price bracket.
Well, I guess you could throw me in the"good enough" camp. I see what other industry professionals are doing and it satisfies them, and they have worked with film for decades, so I'll take their seal of approval and go with it. Now, I don't even have a fraction of their skill set, but I've always subscribed to "What one man can do, another can do". There is more power in saying "Yes" to something than there is in "No". I'm always interested in uncomprising image quality, and your tests are invaluable, but users will have to compare the tests with the results in the real world. The tests are just a stress test anyway, pushing the technology to the breaking point. Users will need to keep their shots in the camera's comfort zone. Hell, that even goes for whatever film stock you may be using.
Everyone's bar is diffeent. For me the DVX100 just barely crossed over the bar of acceptability. I thought there were some real problems in "November" in some scenes, but still inspiring. The 5DII crossed over that bar even more comfortably despite line skipping, pixel binning, moire, jello and aliasing which I do not see in the best work that this camera has documented. The camera needs to cross over a certain bar, but my lighting is the most important thing. it is the emotional heart of a scene visually. If the camera can document that without visible artifacts, I'll be happy. I'm happy to give up just a bit of latitude in exchange for cleaner low light ability, and all the other wonderful conveniences that video offers over film.
The pros say this projects wonderfully on a 40 foot screen. I'm a long way from having anything to project on a 40 foot screen, but I would like my cam to at least have the abiltiy to do that.
Really, right now, just coming up with a story and compelling characters that will be able to be filmed in a zero budget scenario (If I budget 0 dollars, I know I'll at least come in 15K over budget
) is far more concerning than my camera. The camera is there. My story is not. Though, it is exciting to see the industry responding to the DSLR!! ...and to watch the evolution of truly cinematic tools. Coming from a film background, I'm no longer thinking "ick" when I think video.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
you said it, man.
Ian-T
Veteran
Yeah...but that point right there, especially in this economy, doesn't make sense to some folks.
Are you planning on shooting a feature film sometime soon and taking it to market to sell? (Real question)
No, not anytime soon. I'm going to start with some music videos and work on my craft and also put together some reels for some actors. If that goes well ...well see. It's steep mountain to climb.
Would be interesting to get your thoughts on what ASC Shane Hurlbut thinks of the 5DII. He says it looks spectacular projected but maybe he's just sloppy or a secretly paid shill by Canon.