Brand New Panasonic AJ-HPX2700 for $19.5k?!?

I know the HPX2700 is a great camera, but from my point of view...19K for a 720p camera is still too much. (Yes I know it has lots of pro features, but it's still a 720p camera).
If they were offering that price on the HPX3000...now that would be something.
 
The HPX300 is already $7,000.

And the HPX3700 already had the same kind of deal, it was $29k, half-off its regular $60k price with the trade-in.
 
zeke said:
I know the HPX2700 is a great camera, but from my point of view...19K for a 720p camera is still too much. (Yes I know it has lots of pro features, but it's still a 720p camera).
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According to your logic, George Lucas's CineAlta had to shoot something like 40K resolution.
 
No, according to my logic, you can get great 1080p cameras for well under 10K and add accesories and still be well under 19K.
 
dadoboy said:
Dan, it does democratize the field to some extent, but like you said, these cameras are still intended for the rental market. Owner/operators do not really compete with high end rental houses, they cater to a different market. TV shows and well financed pictures always rent and so there is still a lot of purchasing power out there for expensive cameras whether they are film or digital.

Panavision and Claremont are suffering badly right now, but it's due to a variety of factors, some of which you must be aware of being an LA resident. Namely, the bottom has dropped out on well financed independent pictures, the world market for American independents isn't what it used to be, DVD sales are flat, Wall Street is not happy with the returns they've been getting from the major studios over the last six years, there's fewer studio pictures made (probably just half what it used to be a few years ago) and they are trying to make them cheaper, faster, everywhere else in the world.

I don't know that it has a trickle down effect to the cost of a 2700, but its both frustrating (in terms of labor) and liberating (in terms of equipment costs) that the drive now is to make content cheaper, with cheaper stuff and most likely, cheaper people.

Personally, I've worked in camera for seven years, I'm a paid up union AC, but currently you'll find me working as a non union best boy for a commercial studio. It's a temporary admission of defeat, but I was going into the red every month this year, and I had to cut the losses for now until I figure out my next move. I would never admit this by the way, if I wasn't anonymous here.
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puredrifting said:
No shame man, we all do what we have to in order to pay the bills. I know that the studios are all hurting as Hollywood is going down. We were short sighted enough in California to believe that Hollywood would always reign supreme as the THE entertainment source worldwide so we let the unions gouge and residents hold productions hostage if they didn't pay everyone in the neighborhood off. Producers decided to shoot elsewhere. One of the largest wastes of industry potential in modern times. Hardly any features shoot in LA anymore, it is too expensive and too much of a PITA when you can go out of state and get huge tax rebates, more coopoerative unions or non-unions, and the coorperation of local communities that welcome production because they know it brings millions of dollars and jobs into the community.

I was born and raised in LA and I have to say, we are a state of morons when it comes to preserving our resources, be they economic or natural.

Dan
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DC said:
I hear you guys. I'll admit it right here and right now: 2009 has been a very slow and depressing year for me when it comes to gigs and creative projects. In late May of 2008, I arrived back in LA after shooting a film with Richard Branson that took me to London and Kenya. I was pumped! And I had lined up some stellar projects throughout the remainder of 2008 and into 2009. Shortly thereafter, people stopped responding to my messages as the bottom fell out for the industry and the global economy! Don't get me wrong, I've done some stuff this year, but nothing all that interesting compared to what I had been doing and what I had planned.

I get these occasional offers to work on (mostly) lame projects where the client wants everything for nothing (or virtually nothing). [sigh] I would literally rather just stay in bed, or earn money in a completely unrelated way.

I'm not even sure what I want to do in life anymore to support myself and my family. I'd love to keep making films, etc. But where has the market gone? When will it come back? WILL it come back? And if it does, will it come back to LA? Should I even stay in LA and wait it out?
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Try Michigan. It's booming there...

It's funny. I see a huge contrast in people's attitudes towards the industry in LA right now. It seems to be feast or famine. I am strictly non-union independent and have been busy as hell this entire year. I had one slow week, got a little nervous, and then right back into the fire. I have lots of buddies that have been having the same kind of luck as me. On the other hand, I hear stories from others about weeks with no work and people leaving LA because it's "dried up". I don't know what the secret is but I think one thing that helps me is having a great network and multiple hooks in the water. If DP or camera op gigs are not happening, I do post stuff. I take pretty much ALL work that comes my way. If I go out and shoot for a day and make $100, it's crap money but I have made some great contacts that have led to repeat business from those kind of gigs. I did just travel to Michigan with an LA based prod company to shoot a feature. We hired quite a few locals. Great people and everybody had been swamped with work prior to our show and had stuff lined up afterwards. LA needs to get on the tax credit train and quit making it so hard to make movies in town. michigan, idaho, georgia, louisiana, arizona, etc. have figured it out and are getting it done.

Still, there IS work in LA. Independent film/web/music vid/etc. is very much alive. If you open up to new ideas and look at gigs for their potential beyond the day rate, I believe you can succeed.
 
I am with you Cheez,

I DP'd a dance film over the weekend for very little money but the end product turned out pretty great and I did meet a bunch of cool people that I will be working with.

I am shooting an upcoming project for a transportation provider.

Producing a low end corporate gig, I am writing, shooting and editing.

Shooting a short film presentation for the global warming G20 meeting in Copenhagen.

Shooting a PBS doc on a famous singer, lots of interviews with A listers

There is a good amount of non-union work out there. I am working a lot this year too. The only thing I am complaining about are budgets. My revenues were down 20% from 2007 last year and this year, will be down 20% from 2008, yet I am billing out about 30% more invoices. A lot more work for a lot less money. Such is life, time to put the freelancing on the back burner and get my own shows on the front burner. I think very soon I won't be able to earn as much as I need to freelancing, too many productions going on out there with "low or no" budgets.

If I do sell a show this year, I will buy the 2700 without a thought. Native 1080 is overrated. I wouldn't mind having it but I am firmly convinced that 90% of the people who say that they really must have a native 1080 camera would have a hard time picking out a 1080 picture against a well shot 720 picture. The only time 1080 matters is on large screens or projected. On the web, SD DVD or even broadcast on normal size TVs, nobody is going to notice or care. If I was shooting narrative theatrical, I would care but very few people on DVX User are shooting theatrical releases, I know I am not.

Dan
 
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I don't work for $100 / day anymore or anything close to that. But I am aware that working sometimes for lower rates will get you more work, more contacts, and keep you in the loop. When I was going out for less, I definitely worked more, and work leads to more work, which in turn leads to better paid work. A kind of critical mass can build up.

But I have way more expenses and stuff than most guys and I need to keep clearly in the black. Recently, my grip/electric friends have gotten me a fairly steady gig for that has a healthy rate so I have had to turn down some lower paid AC gigs that were offered which again, can be a bad thing since I am basically saying no to jobs and working relationships, in lieu of more $$$.

It helps to be flexible and to have multiple skills, but often crew people specialize in just one department. I do have experienced, talented, friends who are always desperate for work. It's not an illusion from my perspective, that times are slow here and elsewhere.

I hope you get that 2700 Dan! :)
 
PDR said:
Image is upscaled on the HPX2700.

The "effective picture element" is only 1280x744 (1M pixel sensor), but 1920x1080 (2.2M pixel sensor) on the HPX3700 and HPX3000
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Just directed a commercial on the 2700 today. It upscales to 1080 in-camera very nicely. I'm thinking of buying one with colour VF.
 
zeke said:
No, according to my logic, you can get great 1080p cameras for well under 10K and add accesories and still be well under 19K.
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And just how many 2/3" 1080p cameras can you get for under 10k?

Native 1080p to me are a bit overrated, sure nice, but not always a necessity. On the other hand if you are doing stuff for large screens, theatrical release 1080p has much more going for it.

The world of film and tv seem to go in two directions, simpler and cheaper(and lower quality) or youtube if you want...and very high end with 4K digital film gear, plus regular film. There are still $200m futures produced...

And going back to the HPX2700 for a dime...
How can anyone be so sure that the still makes a huge profit on the 2700 with this trade in offer?

Bottom line for me is that all electronics have been getting dead cheap the last five years. So while we might see the next high end Panasonic around 20-30k, you still need the mechanics which haven't changed that much the last 10 year(or even more). Quality optics, tripods and all other accessories still cost a lost to make as precision mechanics do. Which indecently people seem to forget when discussing prices...had to ask if my friend was joking when he told me the price on the new Fujinon PL lenses, a RED housing is just dimes compared.
 
Christian m said:
And just how many 2/3" 1080p cameras can you get for under 10k?

Native 1080p to me are a bit overrated, sure nice, but not always a necessity. On the other hand if you are doing stuff for large screens, theatrical release 1080p has much more going for it.

The world of film and tv seem to go in two directions, simpler and cheaper(and lower quality) or youtube if you want...and very high end with 4K digital film gear, plus regular film. There are still $200m futures produced...

And going back to the HPX2700 for a dime...
How can anyone be so sure that the still makes a huge profit on the 2700 with this trade in offer?

Bottom line for me is that all electronics have been getting dead cheap the last five years. So while we might see the next high end Panasonic around 20-30k, you still need the mechanics which haven't changed that much the last 10 year(or even more). Quality optics, tripods and all other accessories still cost a lost to make as precision mechanics do. Which indecently people seem to forget when discussing prices...had to ask if my friend was joking when he told me the price on the new Fujinon PL lenses, a RED housing is just dimes compared.
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None, but you can get a 1/2" 1080p camera for under 10K (EX3), add a P+S Technik Pro35 designed for the EX3 and you have a very capable system for under 19K (excluding lenses) (there is also the newer Letus Ultimate rigs with EX3 adaptor).
I'm not knocking the 2700, but as you stated, my focus is on features, not broadcast. In hopes of getting something both on Blu-Ray/DVD and the big screen, higher resoltion does help. Plus, unlike others, I not much of a fan of the 'look' of the older Varicams. Just personal taste, not an attack.
The reason I thought the 3000 priced at 19K would be so great is the option for 10bit 4:4:4 video. An HPX3000 priced at 20K would actually be competitive with a fully rigged up Scarlet and still less expensive than a fully rigged Red.
Thanks to Apple, 4:4:4 editing is an affordable option now days.
 
zeke said:
None, but you can get a 1/2" 1080p camera for under 10K (EX3), add a P+S Technik Pro35 designed for the EX3 and you have a very capable system for under 19K (excluding lenses) (there is also the newer Letus Ultimate rigs with EX3 adaptor).
I'm not knocking the 2700, but as you stated, my focus is on features, not broadcast. In hopes of getting something both on Blu-Ray/DVD and the big screen, higher resoltion does help. Plus, unlike others, I not much of a fan of the 'look' of the older Varicams. Just personal taste, not an attack.
The reason I thought the 3000 priced at 19K would be so great is the option for 10bit 4:4:4 video. An HPX3000 priced at 20K would actually be competitive with a fully rigged up Scarlet and still less expensive than a fully rigged Red.
Thanks to Apple, 4:4:4 editing is an affordable option now days.
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I am sorry zeke but your comparison of the technologies is flawed. The actual technical data vs end results you are seeking is based on conjecture.

Maybe I am understanding your statement incorrectly but have you actually done bench tests on the 300, 2700, 3000 and the 3700?

Dont get me wrong, my question is not to attack you but reach out to anybody on these forums that without actually understand the engineering factors of ALL these systems, simple side by side comparison is just totally wrong.

Your statement of not liking the varicam "look" is the only valid argument that can be made in such discussions because everybody is entitled to their opinions.

In our shop we have full time DIT's who's sole job is to test, prep and run the gear during filming. We work with systems ranging from HVX200 to Genesis so we do a lot of testing. I wish it was as simple as resolution and imager size to get the best quality out of any camera. That rabbit hole is a lot deeper than it looks, I am sure there a good number of people people on these forums that know that already but I am also quite sure a much larger majority does not trully understand it.

I would recommend to anybody to not get wrapped up in ANY manufacturers hype. Each camera system has its own advantages and disadvantages but trying to compare them at such a basic level is just not a valid argument.

Just my 2c
 
puredrifting said:
Matt,

When you think about it, in a way, this price drop just kind of killed the price of used HPX500s too. Who will pay $8k to $10k for a used 500 when you can probably soon buy used 2000s and 2700s for the same?

This is a great discussion and I really appreciate all of the input. It did just dawn on me, you guys are right, this is the end. The new "expensive" for pro cameras will be under $20k and eventually under $10k. The mid tier that many of us existed on around $5k to $8k is now being knocked down to around $2k to $3k like the 7D, 5D MKII, GH1, etc.

Wow, this must even be sending reverebrations through RED. I don't think they will be selling as many EPICs as they had hoped at the price they had thought they would. Granted, the digital cinema camera market is slightly different than the ENG camera market but they are at least a little bit cost related. It is just freaking me out because it is happening so quickly.

I guess this is a plus for those with camera lust, but it is one more step towards the total democratization of even high end television, film and web production. The cheaper the stuff gets, the more millions worldwide join in the party are "producers", the more common place producing video becomes and the fewer people can make a living at it. I need to brush up my plan B a bit I think ;-)

Dan
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No, not really. People have been saying this since the 1980s (when camcorders first came out), and it never happened.

There are a few reasons for this:

1 - Good writers are very, very rare. Try teaching a screenwriting class, and see what percentage of highly motivated students you can teach to produce a watchable (let alone excellent) script. If you get 1 out 250, you are a very, very good screenwriting teacher. Screenwriting requires access to a used PC (at minimum) which can be had in most cities for about $150. In the pat it required a typewriter (cost about the same at the time, adjusted for inflation). Sure, teh economy goes up and down, but in general very good screenwriters still make a very good living (if they knwo how to network) just liek they always did.

2 - Good actors are very, very rare. All those waiters who say they are actors, well, try auditioning them. Most of them suck, or they have a look that will rarely correspond to an understandable character type.

3 - I could go on to directors, Steadicam operators...

It really doesn't matter who has what equipment at what price. Equipement, on a pro set, is only about 25-30% of cost (whether rented or amortized). The rest is talent. Talent is rare, and always will be, when that talent is exceptional.
 
zeke said:
None, but you can get a 1/2" 1080p camera for under 10K (EX3), add a P+S Technik Pro35 designed for the EX3 and you have a very capable system for under 19K (excluding lenses) (there is also the newer Letus Ultimate rigs with EX3 adaptor).
I'm not knocking the 2700, but as you stated, my focus is on features, not broadcast. In hopes of getting something both on Blu-Ray/DVD and the big screen, higher resoltion does help. Plus, unlike others, I not much of a fan of the 'look' of the older Varicams. Just personal taste, not an attack.
The reason I thought the 3000 priced at 19K would be so great is the option for 10bit 4:4:4 video. An HPX3000 priced at 20K would actually be competitive with a fully rigged up Scarlet and still less expensive than a fully rigged Red.
Thanks to Apple, 4:4:4 editing is an affordable option now days.
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The new Encore M2e from Redrock also rocks. Add an EX1, and a Nanoflash, and there is no job you are not ready for, for well under 20K (for cam, yes, you still need to buy/rent LOTS of other stuff, but we are talking about cams here)

Older adapters were terrible, but my Redrock M2e blows me away (as does the Ultimatte). I guess there is some taste-factor in there, but I doubt many clients would notice a quality difference in codec/noise/etc. if we switched to a Varicam. They would notice less depth of field, and what I consider a more video-like look.
 
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Robert Ruffo said:
Older adapters were terrible, but my Redrock M2e blows me away (as does the Ultimatte). I guess there is some taste-factor in there, but I doubt many clients would notice a quality difference in codec/noise/etc. if we switched to a Varicam. They would notice less depth of field, and what I consider a more video-like look.
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"Video-like look" from a VARICAM?

Jeebus, this thread has totally left all sense of reality.
 
zeke said:
The reason I thought the 3000 priced at 19K would be so great is the option for 10bit 4:4:4 video. An HPX3000 priced at 20K would actually be competitive with a fully rigged up Scarlet and still less expensive than a fully rigged Red.
Thanks to Apple, 4:4:4 editing is an affordable option now days.
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I don't think the HPX3000 can output 4:4:4. I think the only model in Panasonic's lineup that can is the HPX3700 with dual SDI. But that would be an incredible price
 
Robert Ruffo said:
The new Encore M2e from Redrock also rocks. Add an EX1, and a Nanoflash, and there is no job you are not ready for, for well under 20K
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Again this is oversimplifying things, if you are doing wedding videos....yes you are set but I dont see anybody taking a Encore M2e with a EX1 to flame suite and try to track a camera solution out of it. The MTF of any adapter is massive but it is also relative to the need of the individuals market.

One man's dream camera is another man's crashcam.
 
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