Brand New Panasonic AJ-HPX2700 for $19.5k?!?

I doubt that. There's always going to be a rental market that caters to the demand for premium services and reliability. Sony F23/F35, Arri digital and film bodies, Genesis (rental only, but equivalent to F35).

Barry_Green said:
It is the end of the $40,000 camcorder, that's true. Whether from Panasonic or Sony or Ikegami or Hitachi or Thomson. That game's over, that ship has sailed, that sun has set.
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This super sucks for anyone who bought the hpx2700 not that long ago. They literally will be 20k in the whole. Now used hpx2700 is worth what 17k. Man that sucks. They could have got 2 for the price of one.
 
Barry_Green said:
But nothing is reused or shared anywhere in the HPX2000/2700/3000/3700 line with any other consumer product. No overlap.
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Not yet. I bet that new generations will have more in common with lower-level models. As to chip size (2/3 - pro, 1/3 - prosumer), then the current situation is not obvious. On the one hand, the HPX300 has a 1/3-inch chip, on the other hand the GH1 has a 4/3 chip and shoots video. I think that the chip size will no longer be a denominator between a pro and a consumer camera, which will ease sharing of the components.

Maybe Panasonic already has a new pro camera based on a 4/3 sensor in the works, and needs to sell the old stock?
 
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Matt,

When you think about it, in a way, this price drop just kind of killed the price of used HPX500s too. Who will pay $8k to $10k for a used 500 when you can probably soon buy used 2000s and 2700s for the same?

This is a great discussion and I really appreciate all of the input. It did just dawn on me, you guys are right, this is the end. The new "expensive" for pro cameras will be under $20k and eventually under $10k. The mid tier that many of us existed on around $5k to $8k is now being knocked down to around $2k to $3k like the 7D, 5D MKII, GH1, etc.

Wow, this must even be sending reverebrations through RED. I don't think they will be selling as many EPICs as they had hoped at the price they had thought they would. Granted, the digital cinema camera market is slightly different than the ENG camera market but they are at least a little bit cost related. It is just freaking me out because it is happening so quickly.

I guess this is a plus for those with camera lust, but it is one more step towards the total democratization of even high end television, film and web production. The cheaper the stuff gets, the more millions worldwide join in the party are "producers", the more common place producing video becomes and the fewer people can make a living at it. I need to brush up my plan B a bit I think ;-)

Dan
 
This makes me think more and more about what the Canon rep said that the DCS 08 conference. "Canon would like to sell lenses."

The electronics and "IT" of digital broadcast and cinema, WILL continue to drop more and more. I don't even know if there will be a floor. But the manufacturers can still make lots of money without the "Bodies."

Good glass will always cost good money. Recording systems, quality batteries, matteboxes, lighting.

Think of a world where the camera costs next to nothing. The consumer buys the best lens they can afford. As they make more money and get new jobs, they will buy new glass.

For the Panasonics of the world, if you seperate the recording module from the camera, then you can upgrade the codec every year.

Today I have my HMC150, next year maybe I can afford "p2 gear" for a feature to record in AVC-I.

Obviously not all of these examples may hold, but the idea is simple: Sensor/body can all drop in price without killing the manufacturers ability to make money on things that don't rapidly evolve so quickly.

And the more modular the products become, the more money they can make.

I do wonder what this will do to the handycam/fixed lens format cameras.

Panasonic will make more and more and more money from a GH1 buyer if they buy panny lenses/accessories. I have an HMC150, I can't buy new Panny glass. And the media is SDHC, I don't have to buy panny. Unless they make a module for my cam to record to a better codec ala nanoflash, I don't see how much more they can bleed from me.

Now an HPX170 buyer will keep buying more P2. They can make money off that.

The next HMC150 is going to need something that is tied to Panasonic so they can keep making money from the buyer besides batteries. (Although man, in hindsight that was smart to make proprietary hmc batts.)

Please point out where I'm wrong. I want to learn!
 
Yes, I am sure that offices over there must be buzzing these days. I think that they are reaping the rewards of not reacting to the market quickly enough. It is pretty hard to compete against multi-billion dollar conglomerates like Sony, Canon and Panasonic when you are the new small kid on the block.

I seem to recall another company in this business that went through the same thing, they had some great minds, created a new paradigm (first affordable desktop editing system way before non-linear) and then it all went to pot because they lagged and the market changed before their eyes and before they could react and save themselves. What was there name? Oh yeah, NewTek. Back in the early 90s, they were a real player.

And this economy is just the wild card that took everyone by surprise. It seems like only the most stubborn of us who make a living at this game are sticking this out. I have a lot of friends who are going into other fields, they are done with production and entertainment.

Interesting, tough and weird times we are in.

Dan
 
Dan, it does democratize the field to some extent, but like you said, these cameras are still intended for the rental market. Owner/operators do not really compete with high end rental houses, they cater to a different market. TV shows and well financed pictures always rent and so there is still a lot of purchasing power out there for expensive cameras whether they are film or digital.

Panavision and Claremont are suffering badly right now, but it's due to a variety of factors, some of which you must be aware of being an LA resident. Namely, the bottom has dropped out on well financed independent pictures, the world market for American independents isn't what it used to be, DVD sales are flat, Wall Street is not happy with the returns they've been getting from the major studios over the last six years, there's fewer studio pictures made (probably just half what it used to be a few years ago) and they are trying to make them cheaper, faster, everywhere else in the world.

I don't know that it has a trickle down effect to the cost of a 2700, but its both frustrating (in terms of labor) and liberating (in terms of equipment costs) that the drive now is to make content cheaper, with cheaper stuff and most likely, cheaper people.

Personally, I've worked in camera for seven years, I'm a paid up union AC, but currently you'll find me working as a non union best boy for a commercial studio. It's a temporary admission of defeat, but I was going into the red every month this year, and I had to cut the losses for now until I figure out my next move. I would never admit this by the way, if I wasn't anonymous here.
 
I have heard Panasonic sells their high end cameras like this one to rental houses for 50% of the retail price, I wonder if rental houses can buy a 2700 for $10k now?
 
No shame man, we all do what we have to in order to pay the bills. I know that the studios are all hurting as Hollywood is going down. We were short sighted enough in California to believe that Hollywood would always reign supreme as the THE entertainment source worldwide so we let the unions gouge and residents hold productions hostage if they didn't pay everyone in the neighborhood off. Producers decided to shoot elsewhere. One of the largest wastes of industry potential in modern times. Hardly any features shoot in LA anymore, it is too expensive and too much of a PITA when you can go out of state and get huge tax rebates, more coopoerative unions or non-unions, and the coorperation of local communities that welcome production because they know it brings millions of dollars and jobs into the community.

I was born and raised in LA and I have to say, we are a state of morons when it comes to preserving our resources, be they economic or natural.

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
No shame man, we all do what we have to in order to pay the bills.

I was born and raised in LA and I have to say, we are a state of morons when it comes to preserving our resources, be they economic or natural.

Dan
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Hi Dan,

Your comments can be applied to just about anywhere in the world, I think it's a combination of Greed, Power and Appathy. Many industries and communities suffer from it, and pay the price for it.

Cheers from downunder
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
 
smelni said:
wait - do you need to trade in to get this price or not?
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Any Betacam will do and Hunter is right, they are all over Ebay. It is pretty funny, people trying to dump their dinosaur Betacams now are advertising them as "cheap trade in for the Panasonic 3700/2700 cameras". Panasonic is not only boosting their own sales, they are helping out all of the owners of these antique Betacams by stimulating demand.

Dan
 
dadoboy said:
. . . Panavision and Claremont are suffering badly right now, but it's due to a variety of factors, some of which you must be aware of being an LA resident. Namely, the bottom has dropped out on well financed independent pictures, the world market for American independents isn't what it used to be, DVD sales are flat, Wall Street is not happy with the returns they've been getting from the major studios over the last six years, there's fewer studio pictures made (probably just half what it used to be a few years ago) and they are trying to make them cheaper, faster, everywhere else in the world. . . . Personally, I've worked in camera for seven years, I'm a paid up union AC, but currently you'll find me working as a non union best boy for a commercial studio. It's a temporary admission of defeat, but I was going into the red every month this year, and I had to cut the losses for now until I figure out my next move. I would never admit this by the way, if I wasn't anonymous here.
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puredrifting said:
No shame man, we all do what we have to in order to pay the bills. I know that the studios are all hurting as Hollywood is going down. We were short sighted enough in California to believe that Hollywood would always reign supreme as the THE entertainment source worldwide so we let the unions gouge and residents hold productions hostage if they didn't pay everyone in the neighborhood off. Producers decided to shoot elsewhere. One of the largest wastes of industry potential in modern times. Hardly any features shoot in LA anymore, it is too expensive and too much of a PITA when you can go out of state and get huge tax rebates, more coopoerative unions or non-unions, and the coorperation of local communities that welcome production because they know it brings millions of dollars and jobs into the community. I was born and raised in LA and I have to say, we are a state of morons when it comes to preserving our resources, be they economic or natural.

Dan
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I hear you guys. I'll admit it right here and right now: 2009 has been a very slow and depressing year for me when it comes to gigs and creative projects. In late May of 2008, I arrived back in LA after shooting a film with Richard Branson that took me to London and Kenya. I was pumped! And I had lined up some stellar projects throughout the remainder of 2008 and into 2009. Shortly thereafter, people stopped responding to my messages as the bottom fell out for the industry and the global economy! Don't get me wrong, I've done some stuff this year, but nothing all that interesting compared to what I had been doing and what I had planned.

I get these occasional offers to work on (mostly) lame projects where the client wants everything for nothing (or virtually nothing). [sigh] I would literally rather just stay in bed, or earn money in a completely unrelated way.

I'm not even sure what I want to do in life anymore to support myself and my family. I'd love to keep making films, etc. But where has the market gone? When will it come back? WILL it come back? And if it does, will it come back to LA? Should I even stay in LA and wait it out?

Sorry, I guess I'm venting a little here. I've been largely absent from DVXUser for awhile because of all this. Just not much going on in this regard. BUT . . . I haven't just been laying around on my arse for months either. I've taken this time to get into some still photography, speed up my '74 Camaro restoration project and practice/teach martial arts. Plus, my longtime collaborator friend and I are planning on shooting a new short film. So it's not like every day has been a complete wash. :)
 
Unfortunately, we're going into the winter months which are the slowest traditionally. BUT I think things will pick up in February once Pilot season kicks in again. Even if you don't work in TV there's a trickle down effect - if one segment of the industry is busy, skilled people get in short supply so it affects every other segment. Just hang tough, do odd jobs or whatever you need to do to tide you over. I'm still paying union dues, but ironically I'm working as an electric of all things right now. Moving to another city is a debatable option, despite how slow it is here - its just less work everywhere else. LA still wears the crown, though the polish is really worn off.

DC said:
I'm not even sure what I want to do in life anymore to support myself and my family. I'd love to keep making films, etc. But where has the market gone? When will it come back? WILL it come back? And if it does, will it come back to LA? Should I even stay in LA and wait it out?
:)
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hey don't be dissing my d600. I just bought a second one of ebay for $500 and a canon j8x6 for $300 !!!!!! totally blows the socks of my hdv cams.

no really I'll be getting a real HD camera eventualy. :violin:
 
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