Body mics

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northernhookers

Member
Im looking to purchase body pack audio recording system that somehow records to somewhere :) The body packs will be using in a kayaking thing I want to film. The camera I have has 2 audio input ports for this kinda thing but Im lost as to what the heck I need to get. I read the sticky posts up there but after researching the stuff they talk about I think they are reffering to like hand held mics. I need a decent clip on set up that sends signal to the camera or another recording device that I can later sync to the footage. As you can tell Im a total rookie. My budget is tight but I want to get a good bang with the audio. Can anyone point me towards options for this kinda thing? I appreciate your time and effort in this!
Jeff
 
I'm going to refer you back to the "$500 Wireless Question" sticky for specific recommendations. That's not talking about hand-helds, it's talking about wireless systems in general. Most manufacturers offer systems with three basic types of transmitter: the belt pack (for use with lavs, or as you call them "clip on"), the XLR plug-in (for use with standard XLR hand-held mics), and the hand-held/transmitter combo (a hand-held mic with the transmitter housed in the same chassis).

Before you embark on something like this, you need to do some serious research beyond just which wireless system to purchase. Because you're kayaking, water-proofing of any audio gear you put in the boat is an absolute must. Honestly, you may find your audio budget better spent hiring a professional sound engineer who has the gear and the know-how.
 
lol. There are no sound engineers up here dude. Im far from any of that :) Im up in the northwest territories, Canada, so Im left to figure out the basics myself and glad to do so. I have used body packs in the past in a couple fishing shows I have been a guest on and they had little pelican bags with just plain electrical tape where the bag let the cords out. Im not flipping the kayaks. but if I did I would hold it up out as fast as I could :) haha.
So what you are saying is that the lav mics are a separate part, the transmitter belt pack is a separate part and then where does it record to?
I will call the support numbers on those brands you suggested in the sticky. Im super happy to meet folks like you on here. Im excited about sharing what I come up with over the fishing season on here. Thanks again.
 
You didn't mention any budget here. But on the slight chance that you have a big pile of money, Lectrosonics makes products that are not only waterproof, but also have built-in recording functionality. Everything you are asking for, but at a premium price.

OTOH a $30 voice recorder in a zip-top plastic bag could do the job for you at 1% of the cost.
 
Get in touch with the fishing show you were a guest on and ask for help from the audio guys. If possible go there and fish for some tips :)

I wouldn't imagine they'd let you borrow their rigs, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

Cheers.
 
Richard Crowley said:
You didn't mention any budget here. But on the slight chance that you have a big pile of money, Lectrosonics makes products that are not only waterproof, but also have built-in recording functionality. Everything you are asking for, but at a premium price.

OTOH a $30 voice recorder in a zip-top plastic bag could do the job for you at 1% of the cost.
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Lectrosonics definitely makes waterproof and splash-proof wireless products, but Zaxcom is the only one who's products have built-in recording functionality. Though they won't be the only major wireless manufacturer that would have built-in recording technology in the coming future.

The $500 wireless sticky has lots of info to get started. The lavalier microphones are separate, the wireless transmitter/receiver system is separate, and they'll probably be recording straight into your camera through the XLR ports.
 
northernhookers said:
lol. There are no sound engineers up here dude. Im far from any of that :)
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"lol" That's something that my telepathic powers cannot divine. That kind of information is helpful up front. Budget is another important piece of the puzzle.

There are three parts to a wireless lavaliere system: the lav, the transmitter pack, and the receiver. You'll typically get a lav mic included with a wireless system, but it's also typically not going to be the best out there (and will be far from waterproof). So... you'll need to upgrade the lav. Look through the lav posts located in Audio 101. The Countryman B3 and B6 lavs are waterproof, by the way.

While you may not be out there to flip kayaks intentionally, things happen. The way body pack transmitters are concealed from the camera's sight makes it difficult to react in time to hold it up out of the water. Small dry bags are okay, but rolling the lav's cable in the folded seal is a bit risky for the cable's durability. There are packs like THIS that allow the cable to feed through while maintaining the water-tight seal, and provide a belt as well.

And where does it record to? Well, you said your camera has two inputs for audio, so that'd be my first guess. Which camera are you using?
 
Thanks for your replies. You guys are hardcore! The main camera for me is the CanonXF100. I also have a Gopro2 and a couple handicams that are mounted on the main boat in weird angles for different angled shots(quick shots to edit in). I am going to find the body mics in the next day or two as well as a low to med quality shotgun mic. My budget for all this is 1300$ for 2 body mics, receiver and a shotgun mic.
Water isnt a major thought even though it might seem like one. When I am in the kayaks (3 out of 12 episodes) it will be in sheltered bays and in stand up capable fishing kayaks. Super stable. I have no worries of the water. That said i do want to look at these waterproof styles from Lectrosonics. I couldnt find them on ebay. I have to shop for everything through the internet seeing as how Im remote.
My boat has an underwater camera mounted on a downrigger ball I use to drag my bait as well :) So I can actually view the fish striking the bait and record this. Its called strikevision from Walker Downriggers. Not great quality but pretty cool to add in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzZMYpUpU68
I appreciate all of your words and direction. I know I will need a lot more help over the coming months. Is this forum a non profit or just a bunch of guys that love chatting camera gear and keeping up on the new stuff?
 
You're going to be way over budget with Lectro, which generally runs well over $1k per channel. The budget you have is enough to get two decent wireless systems, and that's it. You're going to need to add more to include better lavs, and a shotgun mic. Also, don't forget that you'll need support for the shotgun such as a good shockmount suspension and better windscreening than the foam cover that comes with the mic. Plus, you absolutely must have good headphones to wear while you record. Always monitor your audio during production and never leave it to chance. Otherwise, you're bound to experience some pretty disappointing surprises in post.

northernhookers said:
Is this forum a non profit or just a bunch of guys that love chatting camera gear and keeping up on the new stuff?
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The site is privately-owned and independent of any manufacturer, but is a community of everyone from beginners and hobbyists to working professionals, all skill levels, who love to share the craft and help each other out. So welcome!
 
I'd have thought that considering the water element that something along the zoom design would be best. Radios can be waterproofed so water doesn't get in and damage them - but RF and water mean that if your subject turns upside down, then your RF will be lost and remote recording spoiled. Local recording will be continuous and can be dubbed back on in post. A portable recorder with cheap and disposable mic would for me be a no-brainer. RF systems, even expensive ones are in my experience difficult to guarantee in the dry, close in - in a kayak, on (or under) water, at a distance seems a system working right on the edge!
 
paulears said:
Local recording will be continuous and can be dubbed back on in post. A portable recorder with cheap and disposable mic would for me be a no-brainer. RF systems, even expensive ones are in my experience difficult to guarantee in the dry, close in - in a kayak, on (or under) water, at a distance seems a system working right on the edge!
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I was going to say the exactly same thing, why (again) rig up a more expensive system which is more complicated to set up properly and more likely to fail? With every kayaker having a Countryman waterproof lavaliere connected to a small pocket recorder like Olympus LS-11 which in turn is taped inside two ziplock bags you have a foolproof system without channel count limitations. Just before ever take remember to make a sychro point by banging the side of the canoe and videoing that with all recorders running.
 
When faced with a possible disastrous outcome, for instance, loss in the rapids, inside of risking my $1500 transmitters, I have successfully used my old almost forgotten about mini-disc recorders for hazardous duty work.
 
hmm. I have never synced audio and or worked with it yet so this is sounding complicated. I like the cheap aspect. But less work is better for me. Looking at your profiles I see guys that dont think of this as much work. With that giant soundboard there in Ricks avatar I see someone that understands the process involved a lot better than most. Id sooner spend the money on the lav mic system. I will never need more than two channels. Most often it will be me and a guest on the big boat doing a bit of interviewing with special guests. I will rotate the two lav mics around if I have more than one guest.
Budget...For two lav mics I need 2 transmitters and the receiver plugs into the camera. Do these mics fail often? Can you guys link me to an actual full system somewhere on the net showing all components? That way I can familiarize myself with all of what is involved.
I will go research this shotgun mic support thing. Man. Lots involved with the audio. Kinda freaky.
 
each transmitter has to have its own receiver, they cannot share one unless its specifically designed as a 2 receiver in one box unit.

if you dont have a sound operator, than a shotgun is pretty much useless as it is designed and works best on a boom pole being aimed at the person speaking.

do you have a crew that will be helping you out or is this a one man band set up ?

knowing might help us help you better.

Cheers
 
ok. I was able to get a hold of my buddy that runs 'the kayak fishing show' on NBC. They arent anywhere near me so I cant borrow stuff. He says that he started out using the sennheiser body pack in a Ziploc bag and put muffles on the mic and just tried to not get them that wet. When they failed he replaced them with countryman mics and said they actually have taken a couple dunks so far and kept ticking.
Im a total rookie guys. So my lingo is off. The shot gun mic I thought was the little mics you attach to the camera that are like inches from the audio port and come with normal cameras. Mine didnt come with one though.
Try to picture a poor fisherman creating a WebTV show to get some sponsors to pay for tournament entries. haha. Im not looking to make money off this. Just do it for fun and produce a bunch of cool footage so when I die there is a dvd with my name on it. lol It may be a crappy dvd but when I feed myself to the whales it will be there. I have a few friends that will be fishing with me and often taking the camera. Im gonna train them to do most of the camera work. I do love photography and have recently got into that pretty hardcore. So I understand the basics of that and Im hoping it rubs off. I want to create lots of timelapses and use them in the show along with some techno style music when Im going between fishing spots. I have some cool ideas for little segments kinda like tips of the week and what not. I have created the outlines for 12 episodes, scripts for some, a timeline for sponsor clips that will be used with teasers for the fishing networks I am a part of. thats what Im doing in a nutshell.
Any ideas for cool techniques you think I should spend time trying please feel free to email me about. I would love to hear your ideas. Thanks again for your time.
 
http://vistek.ca/store/ProVideoMicr...c-camcorders-advanced-hot-shoe/Resources.aspx
Would this mic be the kind Im after? It just attaches to the camera on the side for additional audio to use in tandem with a wireless system. Like when Im in post I can use audio clips from either one or the other depending on the better sound? Would I have to by a special attachment to connect this mic to the camera. It refers to a shoe. Is the shoe just the attachment that holds the mic that comes with the camera? Questions questions...I know :(
 
northernhookers said:
Would this mic be the kind Im after?
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In a word: no. On the camera is virtually never a good place for any microphone. If I understand your shooting situations correctly, this is WAAAAY to far away for any microphone, unless you are sitting on the bow of the kayak.

Repeating: A $30 ("disposable") voice recorder in a zip-lock bag. That will give you great sound at minimal cost.
1) Sound is ALWAYS better if you get the microphone closer.
2) With anything but a puddle between you and the subject, you don't want a wire dragging through the water.
3) There are no decent wireless kits cheaper than $600, and I wouldn't want to put a wireless transmitter (or receiver, for that matter) at risk of drowning.
 
remember the old addage

The most sophisticated and expensive radio mic system is almost as reliable as a $10 piece of cable.

Dubbing sound in the edit is so easy - even easier with this project because the audio from the kayak will be mainly horrible anyway - so you'll need to edit out all the swearing, the clunks and bonks, the constant roar of the water. Frankly, putting expensive audio equipment in a boat on water is a huge risk. The mic element can get splashed in the first ten seconds and produce no audio for the rest of the action, the boat overturns and even if you have used a marine radio waterproof case (which work well), the damn thing falls in and vanishes into the distance. Plus - all the technical issues with radio mics. They are NOT plug and play. They need you to have skills in areas new to you. Radio is line of sight, plus a tiny bit. You can lose signal so easily due to obstacles and reflections, let alone interference issues. I have getting on for thirty different systems here. Handheld, packs, plug-ins with mains and battery receivers, aerial distribution amps, paddle aerials. I have Sennheiser, Shure, Trantec, Line 6 and AKG. Here in the UK for video applications Sennheiser is the most common (although some people use some dedicated broadcast kit from other brands), but mainly because they have a better range of battery powered receivers I suspect.

Rick's picture of his live sound kit is matched by his advice to NOT go radio, and he's a radio user, same as me. I think that for a novice radio user to even be looking at water sports as the first outing of the kit is very brave. It's your money, but I feel if it was me, the chances of good audio quality in a kayak are limited. The chances of getting trouble free RF are also limited. The actual sounds of the person in the boat are going to be pretty poor, so Rick's idea of an old minidisc recorder is a great one. I can imagine using radios and some shotguns in hairy covers to get close sound of the passing back to the camera - but risking expensive wireless on the lowest quality audio source - seems folly!
 
Hey guys. Thanks for the input. Fishing shows and in particular kayak fishing shows, dont really have 'great' audio like I am thinking you guys are reffering to. Theres no need for it really. I want to show you guys what I am doing because it might help you to understand more about my little shoot. Go to 4:04 and 5:05. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkjiH2uyP_Y Also at 3:17 they are talking from far distance to the camera. This shows that the seinheiser ones do work pretty good from far anyways. ha. You can see that these arent regular kayaks. Also the whole show seems to be covered in background music with the little blurbs of audio from the host. The team that produces this show also produces the larger one on NBC. I personally am not going to be producing a laxed show where the host talks a few times per episode. I am fishing for extreme sized fish and will be educating as I fish. So more audio and Im thinking a bit more noise. Keep in mind. I am fishing taping only 4 episodes from kayak. I have a boat that follows me closely with the main camera. Within 20 feet during the fishing sction. The rest of the 12 episodes will be on the casting platform of a boat. Just like this. 46DF8566-24E8-4311-9E60BE322631B8AC.jpg
Here is another example of a shoot similar to mine. I want to make a better production than this guys show. Thats my goal :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30c2cg29yjc
If this guy can do it then anyone can do this. haha
 
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Im pretty much sold on these body packs. These shows are also shot on land during quick clips where I am showing viewers how to tie rigs that later used in the show. Maybe sometimes in a car or showing the trailer rig and motor maintenance.
Here are the brands I am looking at. I decided to spend more money and get two because I will often be on the casting deck with a guest talking about things.
http://www.vistek.ca/store/ProVideoMicrophones/256280/sony-ecmvg1-electret-condenser-microphone.aspx
Then also 2x body packs http://www.vistek.ca/store/ProVideo...nheiser-ew112p-g3-bodypack-lavalier-omni.aspx
And an extra windscreen for the sony mic from Rode.
 
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