Robert M Wright
Well-known member
...then the overwhelming odds are that you are living in a fantasy. :grin:
Bob's Tests & Comments on the HMC40
- Thread starter BobDiaz
- Start date
...then the overwhelming odds are that you are living in a fantasy. :grin:
On the one hand, I appreciate the idea of shooting video with no apologies. Why not take advantage of what the newr format offers.
On the other hand, its hard to go against the grain of an established paradigm. You bring in video that looks like video, and there are those who will say it looks 'cheap' while making it look like film would make them happy.
Artistically, go with what pleases you. However, if there is a paycheck involved, please the customer wherever possible. Simple as that. If the customer wants a 'film look,' you'd best be prepared for that.
It was a major selling point for DVX100's when they first showed up, and there are plenty of people with plenty of reason to work in that format with not so much as a prayer of having it transferred to movie film. Even movies might not make it to movie film these days, what with digital projectors and all...
I imagine 50 years from now, a very nearly all digital movie world, and filmakers asking why the blazes they still have to shoot 24 frames a second.
On the other hand, its hard to go against the grain of an established paradigm. You bring in video that looks like video, and there are those who will say it looks 'cheap' while making it look like film would make them happy.
Artistically, go with what pleases you. However, if there is a paycheck involved, please the customer wherever possible. Simple as that. If the customer wants a 'film look,' you'd best be prepared for that.
It was a major selling point for DVX100's when they first showed up, and there are plenty of people with plenty of reason to work in that format with not so much as a prayer of having it transferred to movie film. Even movies might not make it to movie film these days, what with digital projectors and all...
I imagine 50 years from now, a very nearly all digital movie world, and filmakers asking why the blazes they still have to shoot 24 frames a second.
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
Seriously, for those desiring to shoot a feature "film", depending on the content, shooting 720p60 can be a much better choice than shooting (1080 or 720)p24, especially if you want your film to have a you-are-there feel to it. For example, for a documentary, 60p is almost assuredly going to be the more compelling format for audiences to view the content, than 24p, most the time.
I'm sure, by a wide margin, for the vast majority of folks here who go onto have some commercial success shooting a feature film, the film is going to be distributed on DVD, Blu-Ray, or over the internet, and very unlikely to be transferred to film. If you have a desire to shoot a feature, it's just plain smart to optimize your shooting for DVD and/or Blu-Ray and/or internet delivery.
I'm sure, by a wide margin, for the vast majority of folks here who go onto have some commercial success shooting a feature film, the film is going to be distributed on DVD, Blu-Ray, or over the internet, and very unlikely to be transferred to film. If you have a desire to shoot a feature, it's just plain smart to optimize your shooting for DVD and/or Blu-Ray and/or internet delivery.
ATL Media Group
Veteran
120fps can look like film. What I mean by film look is clear but not oversharp. It could be the vimeo compression.
I like the image the HMC40 produces. It's nearly the same as an EX1 which says a lot. Let's be honest though... The main reason we have 24p is to give it a more "film look". It's pleasing to the eye. The only tweaks I'd look at would be the color and dynamic range.
Like this:
Or this:
I like the image the HMC40 produces. It's nearly the same as an EX1 which says a lot. Let's be honest though... The main reason we have 24p is to give it a more "film look". It's pleasing to the eye. The only tweaks I'd look at would be the color and dynamic range.
Like this:
Or this:
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
By my way of thinking, the most useful thing about being able to shoot 24p with a video camera, is to achieve fairly good image quality when streaming HD video over the internet. Motion with 24p footage is at least reasonable for a lot of purposes, especially compared to the alternative of decimating every other frame from 30p footage in order to get viewable image quality at lower bandwidths. Motion at 15p looks pretty awful, even for talking head video.
dan.carter
Well-known member
Bob,
Great train ride documentary. I too favor true HD video over a degraded "film look".
Kind Regards,
Dan
Great train ride documentary. I too favor true HD video over a degraded "film look".
Kind Regards,
Dan
ATL Media Group
Veteran
Actually, to me 24p is not the end all for a film look. There is much more to making your production look like a film. Color grading, proper lighting/exposure, no zooming and tracking shots are just a few ways to make any video look like film. Most of those have little to do with a "look" and more to do with proper shooting and editing.
Like I mentioned in an earlier post.... 120fps can look like film.
BobDiaz
The Professor
Thanks Dan,
There are some properties of film worth trying for, like dynamic range. Video can't match the range of film, but using DRS, we should be able to make it look like the range is extended a bit.
That's an area I haven't tested yet. Pity that real work gets into the way of fun. :happy:
I know that cranking up the Chroma Level can give that over saturated color look. I think Barry called it a "Technicolor Look".
Bob Diaz
There are some properties of film worth trying for, like dynamic range. Video can't match the range of film, but using DRS, we should be able to make it look like the range is extended a bit.
That's an area I haven't tested yet. Pity that real work gets into the way of fun. :happy:
I know that cranking up the Chroma Level can give that over saturated color look. I think Barry called it a "Technicolor Look".
Bob Diaz
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
Simply shooting 24p isn't all that goes into imitating film, but I bet it's the most common reason people do shoot 24p with video cameras.
There's a difference between tweaking color to make your video look better, and tweaking color to make your video look more like film. When you try to make your video look better, a side effect might be that it turns out looking like film. If you endeavor to make your video look like film, and it winds up looking better too, that's nice, but it's really only an accident.
There's a difference between tweaking color to make your video look better, and tweaking color to make your video look more like film. When you try to make your video look better, a side effect might be that it turns out looking like film. If you endeavor to make your video look like film, and it winds up looking better too, that's nice, but it's really only an accident.
ShugPro Digital Studio
Active member
WELL SAID.
24p wasn't the only reason the DVX100 was popular among indie film types. The cine-gamma software and manual focus abilities were a big part of it's success as well. Most importantly, as others have stated in other places in this forum, it's the user, not the tools. I've seen, and worked on some great looking short films that were on Super8, Hi8, 60i MiniDV, etc...and I've also seen and worked on some really crappy looking stuff that was shot on much nicer gear. Learn proper technique, and you could accomplish anything.
BobDiaz
The Professor
I have an interesting theory on the Panasonic DMP-BD60K Blu-ray player that comes free when you purchase an HMC40 in December 2009 or January 2010...
According to the specifications:
To me this says that I can take the memory card out of my HMC40, pop it into the Panasonic Blu-ray player and play the video.
Assume that I copy all the data off the card on to a DVD. I'm thinking that the same software that can read the card will also read the disk in the same way.
I have to wait 6 to 8 weeks before my player arrives and I can try it out, but if anyone has the HMC40 and a Panasonic DMP-BD60K Blu-ray player, could you try it out... That would be a cool thing if it works.
Even if it doesn't, I'll still be burning my files onto DVDs as a second from of backup.
Bob Diaz
According to the specifications:
To me this says that I can take the memory card out of my HMC40, pop it into the Panasonic Blu-ray player and play the video.
Assume that I copy all the data off the card on to a DVD. I'm thinking that the same software that can read the card will also read the disk in the same way.
I have to wait 6 to 8 weeks before my player arrives and I can try it out, but if anyone has the HMC40 and a Panasonic DMP-BD60K Blu-ray player, could you try it out... That would be a cool thing if it works.
Even if it doesn't, I'll still be burning my files onto DVDs as a second from of backup.
Bob Diaz
ATL Media Group
Veteran
I remember reading the home theater forums a while back and they were talking about how the newer Panasonic TVs and Blu-Ray players could do what you are suggesting. This one is the newest so I bet it'll play the files from the HMC the same way.
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
I'm hoping you can make an image of an AVCHD or Blu-Ray disk, copy it to an SDHC card, and have that play.
If that works, distributing content on SDHC cards could become a genuinely viable option to distribution on optical disks (of any sort), except for probably being limited to the Panasonic players.
If that works, distributing content on SDHC cards could become a genuinely viable option to distribution on optical disks (of any sort), except for probably being limited to the Panasonic players.
Barry_Green
Moderator
My blu-ray player is over a year old (I think it's a BD35K or something like that) and it does exactly what you say -- you can plug the SD card right in the blu-ray player and play the footage.
You can do the same thing on a PlayStation 3.
And you can render AVCHD discs out of Nero, which let you author Blu-Ray compatible discs on ultra-cheap DVD-R discs (provided, of course, that you don't need more than about 4GB worth of footage).
You can do the same thing on a PlayStation 3.
And you can render AVCHD discs out of Nero, which let you author Blu-Ray compatible discs on ultra-cheap DVD-R discs (provided, of course, that you don't need more than about 4GB worth of footage).
Robert M Wright
Well-known member
With DL disks you can make an 8GB AVCHD disk, although I hate messing with DL disks. Even 4GB isn't that small though, really. If you take the 1080p24 footage from most sub $10k HD camcorders, and downscale it to 720p24 (properly), there just isn't a whale of a lot of loss of detail. At 720p24, typical footage (not non-stop car chases) can compress quite well with AVC. Getting over an hour of viewable 720p24 on a single layer DVD is very doable.
I'm quite interested in the HMC40, but have found no measurement of the rolling shutter read reset time for comparison with other CMOS sensor camcorders. Apparently it is possible to experimentally determine the read reset time by measuring image skew from top to bottom on a relatively quick pan across a well marked wall.
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?p=159018#post159018
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?p=159843#post159843
It would be interesting to know if there is a difference between progressive and interlaced recording modes and resolution.
VIDEOSCOPE
DVXuser Sponsor
Neat little train video. We are primarily a Panasonic dealer who simply reads without posting or updating. The trains caught my eye and gave me an opportunity to see samples of what the camera will do. As a hobby I collect antique train parts, horns, whistle and bells, so anything train related I like.
So I take it your happy with your HMC40 purchase? We have been selling quite a few along with the HMC150. The 300 model is off and on. I have guys working the sidelines of the superbowl coming to pick up a couple HPX300 models today which will be quite a test.
Earlier I seen threads where dealers and users were trying to explain why the pricing is so out of whack and why B&H seems to get most of the business. Its a shame but it will never change. Trust me after 13 or more years, he who has the deepest pockets wins. Product pricing is partially based on price breaks along with marketing funds so its impossible to be competitive unless one is buying a pallet at a time or making a under cover special deal with the factory in question. We had a B&H employee for a few years. We don't even mark up profit anymore. To be competitive we sell at or below cost just to service our "territory". At the end of the month, we run reports and what bails us out are volume sales and accessories. Working with a reseller who adds value like support its worth the difference if you have experienced problems in the past but I like you agree that if a reseller is authorized to sell the product and they have a better price, thats where I would go too. Fifty bucks is fifty bucks. What makes it even harder for the dealers are accepting credit cards. Usually its about a 3 percent charge to the merchant to accept cards but we have been seeing variables when the statement comes at the end of the month. Sometimes the address verification is questioned but they will let the charge go through only to charge a extra percentage 30 days later when the closing statement arrives. So for resellers to sell at 5%, loose 3 or more, its like working for free. Then to write pay checks, pay commissions, pay the rent and still maintain millions in inventory? Then support local customers who are taxable deducting the difference again to compete with the out of town cross state online stores? Frustrating but we threw in the towel a long time ago. No more complaining or bellyaching because nobody cares. Its who has the best price and that's it.
Everything below cost and make it up on accessories purchased in bulk. Example, some items like Sennheiser wireless kits we pay a few hundred below B&H so this is where we make it up while still knocking off $30 or so from what selling on the web. With the economy the way it is, I do not blame anyone who wants to save $1. It all adds up in the end.
Good luck with the camera. I think you made a wise choice. I'm probably going ot take one out of stock for around the house. Family videos...
BobDiaz
The Professor
Yes, I am VERY happy with my HMC40. The camera has performed better than I first expected. While it's common for us to say, "It's not a low light camera." My first test at the different shutter speeds and gain levels showed that with a 1/30 of a second shutter and +12dB --> +18dB of gain, a reasonably good night image is possible.
I've only had a chance to shoot 2 events, The "Little Trains" and The Smart Car Rally. In both cases, features like pre-record and solid state recording make the filming of both events a pleasure. In the tape day, I'd turn off the camera while waiting to avoid excessive wear on the tape, but with solid state, who cares? When expecting something to happen with tape, I'd have to run the tape and wait, but with pre-record, just point and wait; after all I have 3 seconds to hit record and still get it.
Bob Diaz