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[Robert Ruffo]

Shoots56, you should try it before you write it off completely. I had a similar attitude but picked up a MFT BMCC for a specific job. I have access to all sorts of cameras including an F3 and I now shoot with the BMCC a lot of the time. Its a great size, its image is really, really nice and with a speedbooster its equivalent to a bit bigger than super35.

The battery is something I thought was a bit dumb but its only dumb due to where the screen is and where you will put your battery pinch. If the screen wasn't there it would be like a red with a vlock at the back, just with a hold out battery internally when you wanted to hot swap or go very light for an hour, very useful.

The problems really are the screen, the weird jacks and the placement of the jacks. Having them on the op side of camera is annoying.
If the BMCC sensor was inside an F3 or AF100 style body it would be amazing. I don't agree with you re the DR though, the F3 with slog has never delivered us as much DR as the BMCC get us, so in our experience the F3 has less.

It has been stated that this camera has less dynamic range than a BMC 2.5 K, and the same el-cheapo absence of an OLPF. So… Maybe not so great. Don't expect high-end prods to embrace it. They won't. They will stick with Epic/Alexa. And run and gun prefer something simpler to use like an F3 or an ENG cam (I still see a lot of EX1s on Discovery shows, reality shows, etc.) So where does this camera fit? It will be the camera of choice for indy films too broke to rent a Scarlet, and of film students. Nothing wrong with that, but that's about it.

 

[Robert Ruffo]

Thats true. I hadn't had a problem with moire untill yesterday when we shot some building exteriors for a promotional vid for the venue. It had crazy moire all over it. Pulled out the AF100 for that shot

What few people realize is that moire also affect in-focus skin, all the time. It makes pores and wrinkles appear larger and your light seem harsher. Not very kind to your actress to film her with a BMC, DSLR, etc.

Post does not really fix this. Using post to fix this is like putting lots of makeup on a pimple. filters, also do not quiet fix this. OLPF is an expensive part of camera manufacturing, and sensor R&D. BM being the kings of el-cheapo that they are, did not bother.

Also, expect all kinds of defects and issues.

If you have a small budget, go out and buy a used Red One MX or F35. Much better value, not that much more expensive, leagues better images quality, I have no doubt.

 

[Gillvane]

If you have a small budget, go out and buy a used Red One MX or F35. Much better value, not that much more expensive, leagues better images quality, I have no doubt.

Wow! i had no idea the F35 was so reasonable!

F35 on ebay

 

[regnaleb]

Wow! i had no idea the F35 was so reasonable!

F35 on ebay

Wow! What about this Red One camera?

 

[Kholi]

It has been stated that this camera has less dynamic range than a BMC 2.5 K, and the same el-cheapo absence of an OLPF. So… Maybe not so great. Don't expect high-end prods to embrace it. They won't. They will stick with Epic/Alexa. And run and gun prefer something simpler to use like an F3 or an ENG cam (I still see a lot of EX1s on Discovery shows, reality shows, etc.) So where does this camera fit? It will be the camera of choice for indy films too broke to rent a Scarlet, and of film students. Nothing wrong with that, but that's about it.

The OLPF (if left out of the camera) would be BMD's choice, not an agreeable one, but their choice. I believe they left it out of the 2.5K so that it uprezzed to 4K better, which it does. But, even if they leave the OLPF out of the camera Mosaic Engineering's already on top of it and within weeks of release Mosaic will have one ready to sell, based on an entirely new process that they've been developing and preparing to implement specifically with Blackmagic's 4K camera. Given the price tag of the camera including Resolve, a optional OLPF may not be a bad deal at all. Consider that there are Scarlet owners that are trying to remove OLPFs from their camera, and the F5/F55 have an interchangeable dock built-in.

If we're also talking about DR in comparison, Scarlet (and while we're at it, Epic) aren't netting above 12 stops of useable data on a good day. Scarlet clearly less than Epic. Scarlets are also a dime-a-dozen in Los Angeles and easy to come by for a few hundred bucks, if not free. No one wants to shoot with them, though, due to being notoriously noisy. It's the same productions that you mention only 2.5Ks go to that Scarlet's are going to, no-budget/no-money music videos/projects that don't want to shoot DSLRs.

4k Camera to 4k camera, neither Scarlet nor Epic have Global Shutter out of the box, and judging by the price of the mount, most owner/operators won't have it either.

Blackmagic's 4K camera won't have high speed options.

So, where does the camera fit?

4K ProRes.

From an LA rental agent's perspective (brick and mortar, not out of a house) here's how the conversation goes:

"Can we get an Alexa package for 800/day pretty please? We just want to shoot ProRes"

"Okay, well I guess we will take the Epic package for 600/day?"

"Oh wait, the Epic package is 900/day? Uhhhh, well what's a Scarlet cost?"

"Can we get Superspeeds with the Scarlet for 600/day, it's noisy right? Okay we'll just get the Epic."

"Hey we found an Alexa for 1000/day at this other place but thanks!"



Just the reality that really, if everyone could afford it, they'd shoot Alexa straight to ProRes over everything else.

What other camera's shooting a 4K ProRes right-to-the-edit format? What other camera's shooting straight to ProRes that isn't Alexa or Blackmagic without very expensive add-ons?

It'll slot right into B/C-Camera on a ton of major shows shooting here JUST because it's 4K ProRes, and the 2.5K already has a growing reputation of matching Alexa flawlessly. Currently, the 2.5Ks go out as B or C-cams to both Epic and Alexa mostly, versus standalone A-Cameras. That's where it sees the most action... for now.

So, I guess the climate in your city is different, but here, despite the lack of an OLPF and all of that (valid concerns, as an owner I have them myself, and glad that Mosaic's going to save the day) the camera still produces quite an image that attracts larger productions for B and C camera usage.

As long as Blackmagic delivers 12 stops, Global Shutter, and the same (or slightly improved judging from the Pocket Camera) image as the two that are out right now, it'll have no issue being adopted by "high-end" productions, which are going the way of "low end", anyway.

Just my POV, and hopefully none of it comes off as snarky... I made sure to correct anything that sounds more than conversational. I don't have anything to lose if one camera's more popular than another, so it's just an interesting conversation for me.

If you have a small budget, go out and buy a used Red One MX or F35. Much better value, not that much more expensive, leagues better images quality, I have no doubt.

I wouldn't shoot an MX over a 2.5K Blackmagic, but I would certainly shoot MX over Scarlet, and F35 over Epic any day. So, I agree these two cameras are great value.

 

[Surf it Mike]

Dont necessarily agree about "Scarlet noise"

All this means is the camera is within reach of the *"Indie' no lighting budget crowd, no colour grading budget either and possibly no idea how to get the most out this camera. Epic & Scarlet are identical in look when cut "back to back" in scenes with pro crew.

* This is where the 4K BMCC market is. So let's see how this camera performs under "who needs light crew".

The big seller for this camera outside of 4K raw is "global shutter" & dual codec access. All nice things to have, the closest at the moment to this is Sony F55 @ $29K, Epic with motion mount & proxy back @ $24K-ish.

The bigger question I reckon isn't the shipping date ( which will happen ) but will there be BMCC full frame sensor @ NAB next year & its price point?

P.S. In regards to the above mythical rental conversation
Why would anyone hire a BMCC 4K when its so cheap ? .

Also turn up on set with a F35 or Redone see if you get return business ?

 

[Kholi]

Dont necessarily agree about "Scarlet noise"

All this means is the camera is within reach of the *"Indie' no lighting budget crowd, no colour grading budget either and possibly no idea how to get the most out this camera. Epic & Scarlet are identical in look when cut "back to back" in scenes with pro crew.

* This is where the 4K BMCC market is. So let's see how this camera performs under "who needs light crew".

The big seller for this camera outside of 4K raw is "global shutter" & dual codec access. All nice things to have, the closest at the moment to this is Sony F55 @ $29K, Epic with motion mount & proxy back @ $24K-ish.

The bigger question I reckon isn't the shipping date ( which will happen ) but will there be BMCC full frame sensor @ NAB next year & its price point?

P.S. In regards to the above mythical rental conversation
Why would anyone hire a BMCC 4K when its so cheap ? .

Also turn up on set with a F35 or Redone see if you get return business ?

Interesting thoughts:

1. Scarlet Noise - Notorious. I don't know of a Colorist in my area that doesn't think so, and most DPs feel the same way.

2. Whenever the Proxy back actually ships, we'll have to see how it's accepted. RED owners dont seem to want it, either, judging from the conversations on it.

3. 4K ProRes, 1080 ProRes. I don't understand why anyone thinks that an S35 camera spitting out 4K ProRes LOG files is only for Indie/no-budget. Is it the price?

4. Mythical rental conversation happens at least once a week. I thought I mentioned that I actually work at an LA rental house from time to time (was daily, now working on personal stuff)? Why is it Mythical?

5. The Camera head is cheap, the accessories are not. That's like saying of an Epic brain were the same price, why would anyone rent one? You still need:

Glass
Batteries
SSDs
Cage/Rigging
External Monitor
Audio Device (if you're going to run audio into the camera)
Tripod

6. RED MX's still go out of the rental house regularly, still being used frequently here. F35s were never intended for this segment, and are a niche thing, so not being used as much, but it's strange that you think someone wouldn't have return business using either camera... really strange.


Perhaps this is a regional thing, I just realized you're in Australia so maybe things are very different there.

 

[Surf it Mike]

mmm ..maybe that's difference between your business and mine.

If any DP offered me those options it tells me everything about what end of the market they are in. Not interested (period) using old gear, on the other hand you obviously are.

Fair enough that's your business plan I have a different one.

 

[yoclay]

mmm ..maybe that's difference between your business and mine.

If any DP offered me those options it tells me everything about what end of the market they are in. Not interested (period) using old gear, on the other hand you obviously are.

Fair enough that's your business plan I have a different one.

That's interesting because I always wondered who it was that was always chasing new gear.
Forget having an eye, a style or a preference.
I'll remember this the next time I request a Cooke 20-100 instead of a Fujinon Cabrio, because the skin still looks better with that 40 year old lens than almost any new one I have seen.

Oh and by the way, an F3 (which gasp comes from 2011) with SLOG and a recorder also still looks better (and kinder) towards most faces for me than almost anything I have seen coming off of an Epic.

 

[Surf it Mike]

Apologies let me clarify I meant current, not new .

Do you qualify 5 year old camera systems as current ?

P.S Yoclay I remember your distain for all things other than HDLSR we'll on another forum. It's with interest I read you now use a Sony F3 what I term a current camera . What has changed, the camera and your attitude or just the camera?

 

[maarek]

^
Rolling shutter hasn't been a problem since 2006/7 with countless number of movies shot on RED, not sure why it needs to be a problem now.

Atleast in the RED shot - Gamer - starring Gerard Butler, the rolling shutter was horrible. High shutter speed + moving RED cam = wobbly waviness.

Rolling shutter has always been a problem, even for simple handheld scenes. The Epic is also one of the fastest CMOS cams out there but it's no Global Shutter.

 

[Robert Ruffo]

Atleast in the RED shot - Gamer - starring Gerard Butler, the rolling shutter was horrible. High shutter speed + moving RED cam = wobbly waviness.

Rolling shutter has always been a problem, even for simple handheld scenes. The Epic is also one of the fastest CMOS cams out there but it's no Global Shutter.

Gamer was shot on the original sensor. Red one with MX sensor is faster, Epic and MX sensor is much, much faster, to the point where rolling shutter is no longer really an issue.

 

[Robert Ruffo]

The OLPF (if left out of the camera) would be BMD's choice, not an agreeable one, but their choice. I believe they left it out of the 2.5K so that it uprezzed to 4K better, which it does. But, even if they leave the OLPF out of the camera Mosaic Engineering's already on top of it and within weeks of release Mosaic will have one ready to sell, based on an entirely new process that they've been developing and preparing to implement specifically with Blackmagic's 4K camera. Given the price tag of the camera including Resolve, a optional OLPF may not be a bad deal at all. Consider that there are Scarlet owners that are trying to remove OLPFs from their camera, and the F5/F55 have an interchangeable dock built-in.

If we're also talking about DR in comparison, Scarlet (and while we're at it, Epic) aren't netting above 12 stops of useable data on a good day. Scarlet clearly less than Epic. Scarlets are also a dime-a-dozen in Los Angeles and easy to come by for a few hundred bucks, if not free. No one wants to shoot with them, though, due to being notoriously noisy. It's the same productions that you mention only 2.5Ks go to that Scarlet's are going to, no-budget/no-money music videos/projects that don't want to shoot DSLRs.

4k Camera to 4k camera, neither Scarlet nor Epic have Global Shutter out of the box, and judging by the price of the mount, most owner/operators won't have it either.

Blackmagic's 4K camera won't have high speed options.

So, where does the camera fit?

4K ProRes.

From an LA rental agent's perspective (brick and mortar, not out of a house) here's how the conversation goes:

"Can we get an Alexa package for 800/day pretty please? We just want to shoot ProRes"

"Okay, well I guess we will take the Epic package for 600/day?"

"Oh wait, the Epic package is 900/day? Uhhhh, well what's a Scarlet cost?"

"Can we get Superspeeds with the Scarlet for 600/day, it's noisy right? Okay we'll just get the Epic."

"Hey we found an Alexa for 1000/day at this other place but thanks!"



Just the reality that really, if everyone could afford it, they'd shoot Alexa straight to ProRes over everything else.

What other camera's shooting a 4K ProRes right-to-the-edit format? What other camera's shooting straight to ProRes that isn't Alexa or Blackmagic without very expensive add-ons?

It'll slot right into B/C-Camera on a ton of major shows shooting here JUST because it's 4K ProRes, and the 2.5K already has a growing reputation of matching Alexa flawlessly. Currently, the 2.5Ks go out as B or C-cams to both Epic and Alexa mostly, versus standalone A-Cameras. That's where it sees the most action... for now.

So, I guess the climate in your city is different, but here, despite the lack of an OLPF and all of that (valid concerns, as an owner I have them myself, and glad that Mosaic's going to save the day) the camera still produces quite an image that attracts larger productions for B and C camera usage.

As long as Blackmagic delivers 12 stops, Global Shutter, and the same (or slightly improved judging from the Pocket Camera) image as the two that are out right now, it'll have no issue being adopted by "high-end" productions, which are going the way of "low end", anyway.

Just my POV, and hopefully none of it comes off as snarky... I made sure to correct anything that sounds more than conversational. I don't have anything to lose if one camera's more popular than another, so it's just an interesting conversation for me.



I wouldn't shoot an MX over a 2.5K Blackmagic, but I would certainly shoot MX over Scarlet, and F35 over Epic any day. So, I agree these two cameras are great value.

That is simply not true. Some prefer the Epic because it is lighter, has higher resolution, and RAW allows for much more involved grading/post.

The Alexa is often preferred, but not always.

The rest of your post contains other unproven FUD. Scarlet is a cheap Epic, so not embraced by high end prods. Scarlet has the same problem - why use it unless you have no money? So your rental market for Scarlets is people who are broke - not a great business proposition.

Epic has been measured as having about 13.5 stops of dynamic range by many ASC DPs. For BM we just have the claims of a somewhat sleazy manufacturer to go on - no tests at all. Even they said was that it had less than a BM 2.5K.

As for OLPF it is an immature choice to exclude it. I don't think that BM has some secret design genius that every single other major camera manufacturer does not, and all others use an OLPF. BM just offers a crude, cheap product at a low price, just like off-brand Chinese car manufacturers offer cheap cars with no heater and no rear brakes. That does not make them better cars, at any level, than say Audis or Fords, just cheaper.

Reality is that high end prods (by that I mean any prods with a real grip truck/crew), which are my world, simply get what is perceived as best for a particular application, and also has been highly proven as mostly reliable. No camera is best for all situations, but no BM camera is really best at anything. There are much better cameras than any of their offerings, with the exception of the Pocket Cinema which is arguably the best tiny-cam out there, on the very rare occasion when you need a tiny cam for some special app. Not only do their cameras perform poorly, they lack professional tools like a live RAW histogram, proper sound inputs, back focus adjustment (and factory back-focus is horrendous and varies cam-to-cam another sign of cheap-crap) )etc., and have very, very poor QC which means I would never trust them.

My strong advice: Save up few more dollars and buy yourself a used Red One MX or F35 (which has a global shutter). There is no need to help BM drive everything down in a race to the bottom.

To think you can buy a camera that the best shoots in the world will embrace for $4K is a delusional pipe dream.

The good news is anyone with a paying gig can rent any camera they want, and anyone who saves up a little can get tremendous value from used Red Ones and F35s.

Red one Mxs still rent here, because they have real advantages over Epics, that are sometimes important,like very, very long record times and ergonomics that I and other prefer to the Epic. F35s are less known but an easy sell once you show people image quality which is unique and lovely.

Sorry, but only someone lacking knowledge and experience would ever shoot a BM 2.5K over a Red One MX. There are absolutely no advantages at all on the 2.5K - cropped sensor, lower resolution and huge files (bigger than 4K on an MX, in data per minute!) along with highly limited, cheaply made body with horrendous ergonomics - it's a poor man's Red, and it's just plain poor.

 

[Samuel H]

* F35 gives an awesome image, at current prices it's a very interesting option. The only problem with it being a somewhat old camera is that it is big and heavy. It's not fair to point to macgregor samples because he could shoot magical footage with basically any camera, but here we go: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ny-F35&p=1986330002&viewfull=1#post1986330002

* rolling shutter measurements for different cameras: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...g-rolling-shutter-put-a-number-on-this-issue!

* the BMC is not as good as cameras costing more than 10 times as much. Nor does it need to be.

 

[Kholi]

That is simply not true. Some prefer the Epic because it is lighter, has higher resolution, and RAW allows for much more involved grading/post.

The Alexa is often preferred, but not always.

This would be a really interesting experiment to witness: Price an Alexa as is to purchase at the same cost as an Epic right now, or to stabilize a shooting package for both cameras at 800/day, and see which one producers choose.

Of course, my money is on Alexa 9.5 out of 10 rentals.

Scarlet is a cheap Epic, so not embraced by high end prods. Scarlet has the same problem - why use it unless you have no money? So your rental market for Scarlets is people who are broke - not a great business proposition.

We don't disagree completely, here.

Epic has been measured as having about 13.5 stops of dynamic range by many ASC DPs. For BM we just have the claims of a somewhat sleazy manufacturer to go on - no tests at all. Even they said was that it had less than a BM 2.5K.

I said useable, which is a keyword. However, if you consider the 13 measured stops (which is the common rating, a good stop and a half away from Alexa) useable then I can't argue with that. Some are okay with the noise.

This is also true, about the 2.5K camera and almost literally zero tests of dynamic range. Wonder why?

As for OLPF it is an immature choice to exclude it. I don't think that BM has some secret design genius that every single other major camera manufacturer does not, and all others use an OLPF. BM just offers a crude, cheap product at a low price, just like off-brand Chinese car manufacturers offer cheap cars with no heater and no rear brakes. That does not make them better cars, at any level, than say Audis or Fords, just cheaper.

I never called anyone a secret design genius. I did offer a reason as to why it may be left out, which is the same reason why it's left out of still cameras. This really isn't anything new, is it? Or is it just because it involves video?

There will be options, as well, so the OLPF argument is kind of moot, to a degree.

My strong advice: Save up few more dollars and buy yourself a used Red One MX or F35 (which has a global shutter). There is no need to help BM drive everything down in a race to the bottom.

To think you can buy a camera that the best shoots in the world will embrace for $4K is a delusional pipe dream.

The good news is anyone with a paying gig can rent any camera they want, and anyone who saves up a little can get tremendous value from used Red Ones and F35s.

Red one Mxs still rent here, F35s are less known but an easy sell once you show people image quality.

The two things I highlighted are really great pieces of information, and may deserve their own thread entirely.

Time will be the only tell where the 4K camera goes, and while it may not tick the right boxes for you, I see three things that it's doing "right" for a lot of commercial and television narratives, as well as feature film production. Global Shutter, S35, ProRes. Flawed it may be on arrival, heck even dead, but judging how things are right now -- a time when a lot of RED users/owners/operators REALLY wish they could compete with the C300 and Alexa for the in-between gigs, it seems like it's right on the "money"... so to speak.

Because I don't know what your high-end looks like, it's difficult to discuss that at all (as long as a grip truck is present, is that high-end? Just asking because you made it a point to mention that your shoots have a real grip truck) yet your advice...

While I would rather shoot MX over Scarlet, and F35 over Scarlet and Epic, there's no way I would buy anything that I couldn't pay off within the span of two to three months, tops. Not here in Los Angeles.

If not very wealthy, well I would hate to be an Epic owner in this climate, especially knowing that I'd have to rent my gear out of the office (or worse, my home) as much as possible in an effort to pay for it. I'd feel a lot better if I were an Alexa owner with my body resting at a place like The Camera House... which leads me to my second point:

Cameras are a dime-a-dozen. Relationships are far more valuable than any tool any person's decided to put their soul into. If I want to shoot Epic for a personal project, I can shoot Epic. F35? Alexa? F65? Most any camera out right now I've got actual friends that happen to own/operate. It's as easy as sending a text to a few people to check availability. If I want a grip truck, I just pay for the gas to fill the tank and I get M18s, some nice I85s, so on and so forth (again, since a grip truck was part of your primary criteria). And on every paying gig that requires an Epic (or whichever), I give back to those people by giving them the largest dollar amount possible for the gear that they've acquired out of production budget. It's a REALLY great setup for everyone involved.

I do own cameras, and they did pay themselves off in the span of two months or so (the first one took two weeks, including all of the accessories), and that's how I prefer it. To return us to topic, I imagine a lot of owner operators prefer that, even if it's only for personal project, and a 4K for $4K camera head doesn't sound too shabby. Hopefully Blackmagic sorts some of the issues found in the first two, and delivers the 4K camera soon so that we can actually see what happens.

I'm definitely interested!

 

[Kholi]

Sorry, but only someone lacking knowledge and experience would ever shoot a BM 2.5K over a Red One MX. There are absolutely no advantages at all on the 2.5K - cropped sensor, lower resolution and huge files (bigger than 4K on an MX, in data per minute!) along with highly limited, cheaply made body with horrendous ergonomics - it's a poor man's Red, and it's just plain poor.

No need to apologize, you have an opinion and of course we disagree. Unless you're apologizing for the overall tone you present your opinion with then thanks.

I would choose the 2.5K Blackmagic over the MX for:

Color (subjective)
Camera Size even when built out (still smaller than an MX)
Dynamic Range (no matter what the 2.5K measures, it's still greater than the MX)
ProRes (straight to delivery)
Overall Image (subjective)

Sensor Size isn't really a trade-off, just a preference.
The 1080 and 2.5K are plenty resolved for the task in most cases

I've shot plenty of Epic and RED MX, plenty. Neither are elusive cameras, again, dime-a-dozen here.

 

[Barry_Green]

I did offer a reason as to why it may be left out, which is the same reason why it's left out of still cameras.

??? Still cameras don't leave OLPF's out. Practically every still camera out there has a properly-tuned OLPF in it -- if it didn't, you'd have the same problems with aliasing and moire in the pictures, as we see in video.

Sure, you can buy a Nikon D800 or a D800E (OLPF-free) but even Nikon admitted that (IIRC) they expected 95% or more of D800-series sales to be the version that includes the OLPF.

This really isn't anything new, is it? Or is it just because it involves video?

An OLPF in video is vastly more important than it is in a still camera. Aliasing is grossly accented by motion. A still frame can frequently get away with it, but in video it creates a rolling moving texture that moves in the opposite direction of camera movement, and as such, it calls attention to itself (frequently glaringly).

So... yeah, it's much more important in video. It was a gross oversight (and a poor, poor decision) on BM's part to ignore it.

 

[Kholi]

??? Still cameras don't leave OLPF's out. Practically every still camera out there has a properly-tuned OLPF in it -- if it didn't, you'd have the same problems with aliasing and moire in the pictures, as we see in video.

Sure, you can buy a Nikon D800 or a D800E (OLPF-free) but even Nikon admitted that (IIRC) they expected 95% or more of D800-series sales to be the version that includes the OLPF.


An OLPF in video is vastly more important than it is in a still camera. Aliasing is grossly accented by motion. A still frame can frequently get away with it, but in video it creates a rolling moving texture that moves in the opposite direction of camera movement, and as such, it calls attention to itself (frequently glaringly).

So... yeah, it's much more important in video. It was a gross oversight (and a poor, poor decision) on BM's part to ignore it.

Off the top of my head, Leica m8 didn't have an aa filter, amongst a few others. D800e more recently. Which was what I'm referring to or that it's not completely uncommon.

Im still not happy about the camera lacking one, hence pursuing mosaic aggressively about making one, but that was apparently Grants call. I would be surprised if the 4k camera has one

edit here: It does come off as if I'm saying it's not important, and that's not what I believe. Opposite, but as its the biggest issue and having had to deal with it for so long I'm likely exhausted on the sticking point and just glad that mosaic is doing something about it.

If I actually had a choice I would have the same setup as the f55, remove/replace it at will but there would be an oem filter for sure.

 

[Barry_Green]

I understand where you're coming from.

I think where I'm at is -- maybe I'm old (okay, I know I'm old) but -- I just don't find a lot of joy in fighting the camera anymore. I'd rather just work with it, than work around it. Hence why I hated DSLRs for video, and still do. I don't want to have to spend thousands of dollars creating some ridiculous franken-rig just so I can actually use the **** thing.

Cameras in professional use simply have to have a few key things -- they have to have XLR ports, they have to have proper OLPF's, they have to have ND filters. To not have those things is just a failure in design. Yes, I can (and have) worked around those problems with cameras before, but -- it's late 2013, nigh unto 2014, why are we still having to screw around with stupid workarounds? Why can't they just build the thing right, the first time?

 

[Kholi]

I understand where you're coming from.

I think where I'm at is -- maybe I'm old (okay, I know I'm old) but -- I just don't find a lot of joy in fighting the camera anymore. I'd rather just work with it, than work around it. Hence why I hated DSLRs for video, and still do. I don't want to have to spend thousands of dollars creating some ridiculous franken-rig just so I can actually use the **** thing.

Cameras in professional use simply have to have a few key things -- they have to have XLR ports, they have to have proper OLPF's, they have to have ND filters. To not have those things is just a failure in design. Yes, I can (and have) worked around those problems with cameras before, but -- it's late 2013, nigh unto 2014, why are we still having to screw around with stupid workarounds? Why can't they just build the thing right, the first time?

I can't disagree with anything that you're saying, even the ND wheel.

Also, I don't think it's your age (you aren't THAT old), it's basically this: too many of us just want a really... really good image, and are willing to work around a solid base to get it. That may be hurting the shooters that want those amenities, yet if any of the cameras what have ND wheels, XLRs, Picture Profiles, reliable proprietary recording media (this is a big one), etc. had the same image of the 2.5K Blackmagic -- or even the Pocket Camera's RAW image, then it would be a no brainer. I don't actually want to build a rig around any camera, and have high hopes that someone's going to take the 4K Blackmagic out of its shell and put it into a body that looks something like an S16 camera.

Even the Epic's got these same issues, it's a block.

An aside...I always felt like Panasonic was the company that "gets it", what you're talking about here. I hope the "rumored" 4K offering returns them to that place with the community.