maranfilms
Veteran
Thanks for clarifying! I wasn't aware they used two different sensors.
BlackMagic - URSA Mini
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Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
OK got the facts:
With the release of the new 4.6K sensor, a new V2 version of the old 4K sensor was added too,
it's actually now standard with new buyers of any URSA/MINI, but those with the V1 sensor will require a paid upgrade.
It's the exact same sensor but only adds 120p 4K vs 80p 4K on the V1, both can do the same 150p HD.
The minor nature of the V2 upgrade is probably why no one heard about it, not to mention upgraded (those upgrading will go 4.6K surely), so it just became a quietly added features for new buyers of the 4K URSAs/MINIs.
As a side note the Cion sensor is capable of 4K 120P so it must be the v2 version.
No one says it can't produce great images. The bad reputation comes from
- The first appearance in the BM production Camera: the sensor has terrible FPN, thus horrible ISO perfomance where it basically can't be pushed beyond 200 ISO because of the FPN and noise, these made the sensor disqualify from all shooting genres except for broad daylight and carefully lit studio locations.
Now with newer models (Cion/URSA/MINI) the processing improvements got rid of the sensor's FPN issue as well as the black hole, also thus making it a much better performer at higher ISOs, and also allowing 150p HD and 80/120p 4K, it was really the mistake of the production camera not to have the power to fix the sensor's downsides.
FPN removal/Noise reduction/CA-highlight processing through the processors is something all cameras from Canon/Sony perform even to the raw signal, I can only guess it was a mistake overlooked just due to the lack of experience in building cameras. Now, on the new models, they realized that and worked on their processing making it a really good image vs the rivals, only lacking in lowlight performance but gaining the Global shutter, a common trade-off known between film-centric camera that are kept at base ISOs + mattebox + V-locks vs doc-centric cameras that like clean 10.000 ISO internal NDs and tiny lasting batteries to cheap media. It's for slightly different uses.
With the release of the new 4.6K sensor, a new V2 version of the old 4K sensor was added too,
it's actually now standard with new buyers of any URSA/MINI, but those with the V1 sensor will require a paid upgrade.
It's the exact same sensor but only adds 120p 4K vs 80p 4K on the V1, both can do the same 150p HD.
The minor nature of the V2 upgrade is probably why no one heard about it, not to mention upgraded (those upgrading will go 4.6K surely), so it just became a quietly added features for new buyers of the 4K URSAs/MINIs.
As a side note the Cion sensor is capable of 4K 120P so it must be the v2 version.
No one says it can't produce great images. The bad reputation comes from
- The first appearance in the BM production Camera: the sensor has terrible FPN, thus horrible ISO perfomance where it basically can't be pushed beyond 200 ISO because of the FPN and noise, these made the sensor disqualify from all shooting genres except for broad daylight and carefully lit studio locations.
Now with newer models (Cion/URSA/MINI) the processing improvements got rid of the sensor's FPN issue as well as the black hole, also thus making it a much better performer at higher ISOs, and also allowing 150p HD and 80/120p 4K, it was really the mistake of the production camera not to have the power to fix the sensor's downsides.
FPN removal/Noise reduction/CA-highlight processing through the processors is something all cameras from Canon/Sony perform even to the raw signal, I can only guess it was a mistake overlooked just due to the lack of experience in building cameras. Now, on the new models, they realized that and worked on their processing making it a really good image vs the rivals, only lacking in lowlight performance but gaining the Global shutter, a common trade-off known between film-centric camera that are kept at base ISOs + mattebox + V-locks vs doc-centric cameras that like clean 10.000 ISO internal NDs and tiny lasting batteries to cheap media. It's for slightly different uses.
I thought they had fixed this. So it's still an issue?
combatentropy
Veteran
Possibly useless trivia, but the 4K sensor is the CMV12000, introduced in 2010, and it used to max out at 150 fps. In 2013, CMOSIS upgraded it to 300 fps. I guess Blackmagic's circuitry can exploit about half of the sensor's max frame rate.
The same goes, actually, for the one in the Micro, which I think is the CIS1910A, from Fairchild. Well it's one of the 1910 models. There's also the plain CIS1910 and the MST1910 ("Maestro"). Doesn't matter, they all max out at 100 fps, although the Micro maxes at 60. So that's my point.
The 4.6K sensor in the URSA Mini is also from Fairchild. It matches the specs of the LTN4625A. But somebody said that Blackmagic is actually using the unlisted Maestro version, the MST4625A.
Either way, I am not an electronics buyer, but I find it intriguing that Fairchild lists the incredibly spec'd LTN4625A on its products page, as if it were for sale to the general public. Maybe AJA could jam it into their CION. Or maybe you could make a camera using it.
The same goes, actually, for the one in the Micro, which I think is the CIS1910A, from Fairchild. Well it's one of the 1910 models. There's also the plain CIS1910 and the MST1910 ("Maestro"). Doesn't matter, they all max out at 100 fps, although the Micro maxes at 60. So that's my point.
The 4.6K sensor in the URSA Mini is also from Fairchild. It matches the specs of the LTN4625A. But somebody said that Blackmagic is actually using the unlisted Maestro version, the MST4625A.
Either way, I am not an electronics buyer, but I find it intriguing that Fairchild lists the incredibly spec'd LTN4625A on its products page, as if it were for sale to the general public. Maybe AJA could jam it into their CION. Or maybe you could make a camera using it.
NorBro
Major Contributor
BM released some info about it in a press release after NAB:
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/press/release/20150410-01
Super confusing to everyone, but as I mentioned, small shops may still have the old V1 sensor camera so you need to ask.
150fps is only available in HD window mode (crop).
BMPC and URSA are both fine @400...you will see FPN if you're underexposed @800 in both cameras to a varying degree. Some may have it worse than others. Anyone that has any experience with Blackmagic knows each camera may be different.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/press/release/20150410-01
Super confusing to everyone, but as I mentioned, small shops may still have the old V1 sensor camera so you need to ask.
150fps is only available in HD window mode (crop).
BMPC and URSA are both fine @400...you will see FPN if you're underexposed @800 in both cameras to a varying degree. Some may have it worse than others. Anyone that has any experience with Blackmagic knows each camera may be different.
AJA still has the pricing problem visavis BMD (and arguably Sony).
Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
HAHHHAAA no problem.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
Those frame rates are in reduced-bit-rate ADC mode. If you want the full DR of the sensor (which you do because it's not stellar to begin with) then you get exactly half the fps.
Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
New footage https://vimeo.com/139130557
I was about to pull the trigger on the FS7 now I am not so sure again lol
I was about to pull the trigger on the FS7 now I am not so sure again lol
Just to clarify, that's the 4K version (old sensor).
Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
Yes it is should have stated that. Either way if the regular 4K sensor which is actually V2 looks that good I can't wait to see more from the 4.6K
What would be your response 8 years ago if someone told you that in 2015 weddings will be shot on 4K RAW cameras ?
GaryinCalifornia
Veteran
lol still waiting for a call about the Ursa and Mini from a dealer...
First time I called them the guy had no clue about the V2 sensor... so will have to find out if the 4k mini is the V2 or old V1... I was thinking only the Ursa got or will be in the Ursa...
According to Able Cine in LA... they can't get the big Ursa in EF mount only PL.... and its $4,995.... he had no clue about the V2 sensor at all... according to what he thought the mini has the orginal sensor which is the V1.. lol so much confusion....
First time I called them the guy had no clue about the V2 sensor... so will have to find out if the 4k mini is the V2 or old V1... I was thinking only the Ursa got or will be in the Ursa...
According to Able Cine in LA... they can't get the big Ursa in EF mount only PL.... and its $4,995.... he had no clue about the V2 sensor at all... according to what he thought the mini has the orginal sensor which is the V1.. lol so much confusion....
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Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
What would be your response 8 years ago if someone told you that in 2015 weddings will be shot on 4K RAW cameras ?
Simply GTFOH
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Good one! LOLWhat would be your response 8 years ago if someone told you that in 2015 weddings will be shot on 4K RAW cameras ?
Wedding video market is a profitable market for 3K cameras. But you're right. The other brands should be ashamed for. 4K RAW for 3K is "the" milestone today.
E
combatentropy
Veteran
What would be your response 8 years ago if someone told you that in 2015 weddings will be shot on 4K RAW cameras ?
I would be like, "Lame but not too surprised people fell for 4K, and are you telling me that global shutter is still that rare?" Here's a camera I sketched out 7½ years ago that I thought was realistic then.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Hey don't count out a 4k camera for weddings. Back in college when I shot weddings we used $12,000.00 SONY DSR500 cameras. Well we had one of those and two SONY DSR300 cameras. This was many years ago back when DVCAM was about the best format you could hope for. The Ursa Mini is peanuts compared to the gear we used to use in that market.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I would hold off on the Sony camera! I thought this footage looked fantastic. Old sensor or not. I would venture to say this "look" would be more difficult to get on a Sony. The notes said this footage was shot in 1080p60, so it wasn't even filmed in 4k. The shot towards the sun did not show the spots but I did see some moire on the groom's lapels. Anyway, yes it does peak one's interest.
NorBro
Major Contributor
All of the BM users including myself who have been preaching about BM quality forever will lose it if this is the video that will make people buy a BM camera, haha.
Does anyone search Vimeo? There are dozens of URSA videos out there that are absolutely amazing and blow the FS7 away.
And the sampled HD from the 4K sensor is ridiculous. I always thought it was so good and then I saw this video of this guy comparing it:
https://vimeo.com/118507138
Get an URSA/URSA MINI (4.6K) and never buy another camera again. TRUST ME!!!
Does anyone search Vimeo? There are dozens of URSA videos out there that are absolutely amazing and blow the FS7 away.
And the sampled HD from the 4K sensor is ridiculous. I always thought it was so good and then I saw this video of this guy comparing it:
https://vimeo.com/118507138
Get an URSA/URSA MINI (4.6K) and never buy another camera again. TRUST ME!!!