Lidar is another possibility for 3rd party integration and BMD would not even be needed when used with true manual focusing PL primes with hard stops and a motorized follow focus, not that I would need that but it would work great on the Sony Primes, there is no flex in the PL mount, rods, lens body is metal, designed for follow focus already. Lidar seems a natural. Shoulder mount with the bicycle handlebars, starting to look like a solid system.
Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K price drop
- Thread starter rob norton
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Lidar is another possibility for 3rd party integration and BMD would not even be needed when used with true manual focusing PL primes with hard stops and a motorized follow focus, not that I would need that but it would work great on the Sony Primes, there is no flex in the PL mount, rods, lens body is metal, designed for follow focus already. Lidar seems a natural. Shoulder mount with the bicycle handlebars, starting to look like a solid system.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
So much I disagree with here...
I don't think the Xeens are that good compared to higher-end lenses. Even the schneider xenons have flaws and those are $3400/each. Looking at the b&h listings, I don't think any of the other Chinese brands you mentioned make a complete set (24 35 50 85) of cine lenses except slr magic.
Where the situation is really dire is zooms. There aren't any midrange zooms between the $2500 sony 28-135 and the $14k 45-135mm (30-90 S35 with rear element expander) angenieux, which doesn't even go wide enough to be an all-in-one IMO.
I think that lidar in a cinema application is kind of a horrible idea, unless it's a sophisticated enough application that it can cover the whole frame and read sensor info. High end focus assist systems seem to use a stereographic depth map (2 cameras one above the other), not lidar. But the thing is - having used sony PDAF, I know that it will never replace manual focus pulling in a narrative context, it will only supplement it. Maybe if it had incredible AI that could collaborate creatively with the operator, it could work. But any dumber system than what I use would have very limited application in scripted drama IMO.
if you're trying to cover more doc style shooting with BM cameras, then I could see the usefulness of lidar. But you still probably want a high quality zoom priced to match the cheap camera
Find me the people who are calling for a fixed lens cinema camera...
ahalpert
Major Contributor
It would sure be nice to have eND though... I shot an interview recently where my FS7 ND was either too much (4 stops) or too little (2 stops). I didnt want to adjust my aperture and didnt have time to dial all the lights down, so I used my variable ND lens filter to dial in exposure. And definitely in doc situations I could see eND being invaluable for precise exposure or mid-shot adjustments. Sigh...
Run&Gun
Veteran
I was leaning towards a Komodo, because of some friends that I shoot with, but I don’t know if it’s really worth all the money I’d have to put into it, at this point. The more I shoot with the Amira(I have a client that has several), the more I like it, and used bodies are reasonably priced(vs. new). but I’d really like to see if Arri is bringing a 4K s35 version out. Even though I’m sure it would(will) be several times the cost of a used one…. And that may drive the used Amira market down even further.
But stretching the 55 another decade wouldn’t hurt my feelings, either. I think I got about nine years out of my last Betacam, my first P2 Vari is getting close to 10 1/2 and my 55 is close to 6 1/2. And that’s just how long I’ve been shooting with my copies of those bodies, not the age of the model designs.
I think what I’d like more than anything right now, really, is the Canon 25-250, though.
It might not be needed unless ... it was an on-body system communicating with the external motors and there's more than one sensor. Smartphones with LiDar usually have one sensor that covers the concentric area around the center of the frame. Hypothetically - let's assume it's possible in the way it works in cars - a multi LiDAR system would cover more/all of the sensor. Of course, it'd have to be practical and reasonably priced.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Au...ensors-brighten-the-future-of-autonomous-cars
This is a 100 meter/330 ft range sensor, whereas a typical LiDAR from DJI and Samsung has about 20 feet but the newest generation is far more powerful, albeit still not inexpensive. There's probably a golden middle in it somewhere.
PS. Abe, where did I claim that XEEN was as good as Leitz?
The difference is that the camera market is controlled by the Japanese cartel, where the artificially maintained high prices allowed the outsiders to benefit from it (Red, BMD, ZCam + those who entered and failed). The manual lens market, on the other hand, is fully competitive and I would assume that the Chinese made products have as low a manufacturing cost as one can achieve anywhere across the globe. In other words, it made a perfect sense to make a video camera but it makes no sense to compete on the lens front because margins are going to be very slim there from the get-go.
Of course, it doesn't mean that a niche here and a niche there is currently fully exhausted. The Chinese don't make the manual high or even mid tier glass but that's where Canon and Sony are entering already and their lenses will also have a fully functioning on-sensor AF.
The problem on the camera front is that cameras are about, if they hadn't yet, to hit the human eye/brain/retina limit. The resolution and the dynamic range are pretty much there already and the entire industry is entering a commodity pricing stage that favors the lowest cost producer. And those are the mass market Japanese companies.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Yeah but BM outcompetes even red/z cam/kinefinity on price and features IMO. It's a difficult judgement call. But the Ursa G2 and the Komodo are a similar price and the G2 has more features included. The Komodo is tougher and built for a different purpose, I suppose. Similar with Pocket vs Z cam. Mavo Edge does it all and I would probably compare to Ursa G2 but it's more expensive. I don't think any of them offer 12K, let alone for $6K.
On some level, it's about the creativity and business acumen of the company. I think Grant Petty has both. And a lot of what he does makes actual sense for filmmaking. Whereas a lot of chinese upstarts leave you scratching your head with some of the decisions and design flaws they make.
But sure, there may not be the room there for them to compete. But a $2500 lens that prioritized performance over size and could resolve 12k...
If the camera market favors the lowest cost producer, then why wouldn't the Chinese eventually triumph?
On some level, it's about the creativity and business acumen of the company. I think Grant Petty has both. And a lot of what he does makes actual sense for filmmaking. Whereas a lot of chinese upstarts leave you scratching your head with some of the decisions and design flaws they make.
But sure, there may not be the room there for them to compete. But a $2500 lens that prioritized performance over size and could resolve 12k...
If the camera market favors the lowest cost producer, then why wouldn't the Chinese eventually triumph?
Because the mount - EF/RF, E and to some extent MFT and F/Z - are the strategic advantages for the Japanese. Samsung tried it with the N-series, beat the Japanese on specs (a full sensor readout and H265 back in 2015) and made no inroads whatsoever. But the Chinese do own a dominant share of the smartphone market - depending on how you define Apple's "designed here, made there" product - despite sanctions against Huawei, with Oppo, Vivo and Xiaomi picking up the low end. The Chinese also dominate the low end LCD TV market, although the high end/OLED is still with the Koreans.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
isn't E-mount at least somewhat open to 3rd party use? or they can't produce a camera with that mount, just lenses?
and I still think that with enough state backing, they could create a new mount and eat the losses for years until it gained acceptance. and have all the chinese budget manufacturers concentrate on providing glass for it straightaway
and I still think that with enough state backing, they could create a new mount and eat the losses for years until it gained acceptance. and have all the chinese budget manufacturers concentrate on providing glass for it straightaway
Sony does license the mount, provided that its specs are met.
Unfortunately, photo-video is a sinking industry where one can make headway only in specific niches and that works best for smaller enterprises.
In smartphones, on the other hand, the money is huge and the Chinese are major players that hold the largest share. And the CPC does play a major role in it as well.
Unfortunately, photo-video is a sinking industry where one can make headway only in specific niches and that works best for smaller enterprises.
In smartphones, on the other hand, the money is huge and the Chinese are major players that hold the largest share. And the CPC does play a major role in it as well.
12K is now out of stock at B&H, 2-4 weeks
Anyway you slice it, B&H is slow. I paid $26 for the FedX 1 day saver on the 23rd, with delivery by the end of the day on Tue 24th, but tracking says item wasn't shipped until 5:14 pm on 24th. I'm only giving it 50-50 chance of making it here by the end of the day tomorrow on the 25th. They also backordered the EF mount, which was shown to be in stock, so B&H ordering system is not real-time live.
Anyway you slice it, B&H is slow. I paid $26 for the FedX 1 day saver on the 23rd, with delivery by the end of the day on Tue 24th, but tracking says item wasn't shipped until 5:14 pm on 24th. I'm only giving it 50-50 chance of making it here by the end of the day tomorrow on the 25th. They also backordered the EF mount, which was shown to be in stock, so B&H ordering system is not real-time live.
Bassman2003
Veteran
They must have staffing issues as they always seem to have their act together in the past.
Perhaps it's Covid related... but my own experience has been that customer service in general has been in decline the past 4 or 5 years.
I used to buy used quite a lot from them - but started to get multiple products that had issues that were supposed to be 9 or 10 on their rating system but would arrive either not functioning or not as described. And not just one category like lenses. They honor their 30 day return policy on the used stuff - but still a hassle and not worth the time to me to shop used anymore.
Also, have ordered things shown in stock and arrival in two days - that then took much longer once purchased. But this seems more recent with the pandemic.
It seems like most things online these days, I get at least a confirmation right away and a tracking number soon after. On this order, it took a while for a confirmation which was just a message that "we'll let you know when it ships" which they never did. I was able to get the tracking and status by looking up my own order.
NorBro
Major Contributor
With such a massive catalogue, there will be some issues here and there.
Usually an order with multiple items has the potential to slow down the entire order which is why I started years ago ordering just the camera body in its own order and anything else I might need like media, batteries, mounts, etc in a different order.
A couple of weeks ago I saw them go back to their same day shipping method if ordered by 6pm (EST), but seems like they are back to delayed shipping and/or same day shipping only if orders are placed by noon (on most of the east coast).
I once ordered FedEx overnight and it didn't make it overnight (that's the only time I can remember doing it because I never had to living in NY as almost everything was always overnight).
If you reach out to customer service they will refund you if you paid for a certain method and it wasn't delivered that way (unless they added some loophole policy).
Usually an order with multiple items has the potential to slow down the entire order which is why I started years ago ordering just the camera body in its own order and anything else I might need like media, batteries, mounts, etc in a different order.
A couple of weeks ago I saw them go back to their same day shipping method if ordered by 6pm (EST), but seems like they are back to delayed shipping and/or same day shipping only if orders are placed by noon (on most of the east coast).
I once ordered FedEx overnight and it didn't make it overnight (that's the only time I can remember doing it because I never had to living in NY as almost everything was always overnight).
If you reach out to customer service they will refund you if you paid for a certain method and it wasn't delivered that way (unless they added some loophole policy).
I should have done that.
An important update from the B&H covered wagon delivering my Ursa 12K and $26 Federal Exress 1 day saver:
They really really jumped through the hoops getting this order expedited from the placement on Monday to departing Newark in under 2 days. It's now speeding along the Oregon Trail and with any luck should arrive in Denver before the first snowfall.
They really really jumped through the hoops getting this order expedited from the placement on Monday to departing Newark in under 2 days. It's now speeding along the Oregon Trail and with any luck should arrive in Denver before the first snowfall.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
What glass will you be using with it?