Blackmagic Design HyperDeck Shuttle Video Recorder OR Atomos Ninja ?
- Thread starter marcolisi
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Barry_Green
Moderator
There is nowhere near enough information here to make an informed and reasonable recommendation.
One is a very-limited-capacity, limited-recording-time, uncompressed recorder. The other is an HDMI-only 60i-only unit.
A reasonable response can only come when you tell us what you're shooting with and what type of work you'd do with it.
I mean, the question you've asked is along the lines of: which would you buy, a 2-seater sports car or a cargo van?
One is a very-limited-capacity, limited-recording-time, uncompressed recorder. The other is an HDMI-only 60i-only unit.
A reasonable response can only come when you tell us what you're shooting with and what type of work you'd do with it.
I mean, the question you've asked is along the lines of: which would you buy, a 2-seater sports car or a cargo van?
Ok, I would like an HDMI recorder that maybe could handle 60p, that I would use for camcorders, dsrl, compact cameras (like the sony tx9 series) , digital cctv cameras. I need something portable, that it can power on for several hours (maybe up to 10 and more) and that can record on hard disk. It does NOT have to record necessary uncompressed, but at least in the same encoding quality of the video source.
Range 1000 - 1500 dollars , but of course the less $ the better.
I use it for wildlife video recording. I leave the camera in place and it records videos.
Right now I am using a sony xr550. I am thinking at other cameras too.
Regarding the atomos, is there any firmware update that can make the unit handle 60p ?
thank you
Range 1000 - 1500 dollars , but of course the less $ the better.
I use it for wildlife video recording. I leave the camera in place and it records videos.
Right now I am using a sony xr550. I am thinking at other cameras too.
Regarding the atomos, is there any firmware update that can make the unit handle 60p ?
thank you
David Shapton
Well-known member
Barry, I agree that most cameras output 60i through HDMI. In Europe, 50i is more common, and of course, we support that, which often looks the same as 25p, since it's derived from a progressive source. We do support progressive video if any manufacturers would care to output it through HDMI. It's not us causing this limitation! Any other HDMI recorder will have exactly the same limitations. In any case, our new-generation Stripper app will recover the original progressive footage and is very fast.
You would need a completely different architecture do deal with 1080p60. It's twice the data rate, and you can't cater for that with a simple firmware upgrade.
Dave Shapton
Atomos
David:
Can you provide more information about Stripper 1.0?
Release date? Mac? PC? etc?
Can you provide more information about Stripper 1.0?
Release date? Mac? PC? etc?
David Shapton
Well-known member
Hi David
I can't give you any of this information yet but will do so very soon. What I can tell you is that it is very fast. We are throwing a lot of resources at this application so you shouldn't have to wait long. The first version will be basic, with more features added later.
Dave Shapton
Atomos
Barry_Green
Moderator
Should have said that, of course, for PAL users the output is 50i and of course the Ninja supports that standard.
50i in and of itself doesn't look anything like 25p though. 25p-embedded-in-50i is common, but 50i by itself looks basically identical to 60i.
Yes, this is something that seems to be getting lost in the translation along the way -- the Ninja is recording whatever the camera gives it. If the camera only outputs 60i, then that's what the Ninja will record. It can't magically synthesize 60i into something else.
The difference is that the camcorders frequently will embed 24p within 60i, and in that case, the Ninja will record it as 60i (i.e., there is no reverse-telecine processing going on to strip out the pulldown and reconform the footage to 24p). Which is totally reasonable and to be expected. It's possible to do, the Nano does it, but the Nano costs 3x as much as the Ninja. If you want to get the Ninja and save that money, you'll have to do the pulldown extraction in post. Atomos is supplying their "Stripper" application for that purpose, or you could likely use FCP's Cinema Tools to strip out the pulldown, or Cineform or Voltaic would likely do it as well, or After Effects could definitely do it...
I think this is the other thing that keeps getting lost. Infrastructure for 1080/60p really isn't there yet. I know a few cameras have jumped the gun and started offering it, but I don't even think the EBU/SMPTE/ATSC groups have even standardized on a 60p broadcast format yet. Seems like people think 60p is already here, but ... not really.
When do you need it? The Ninja is available now. The HyperDeck Shuttle ship date is unknown. I haven't even seen a demo unit being made available for the Media to review it.
But what happen if I connect a sony cx700 or panasonic tm900 to an Atomos via HDMI and the 2 camcorders are set to record in 60p ?
I guess that it does not matter becasue the camcorder HDMI will output in 60i anyway. So the Atomos would get and see an 60i signal.
But than the other problem is that that 60i HDMI output is a compressed signal...am I correct ?
So, my guess is that , with the actual technology, no matter which camcorder,dsrl or whatever we connect to the atomos (except for maybe 2 or 3 items), we will record on the Atomos a signal that in quality is lower than the one recorded directly in the camera/camcorder....
Next step should be, push the camera and camcorder manufactures to add NON compressed HDMI output signals in their cameras....
What about firewires ?
Many old HD mini dv camcorders offer firewire connections ,and firewire recorders exist...do these firewire recorders also have a problem because they get from the camcorder a lower quality sigal from te camcorder firewire output ?
Thank you
I guess that it does not matter becasue the camcorder HDMI will output in 60i anyway. So the Atomos would get and see an 60i signal.
But than the other problem is that that 60i HDMI output is a compressed signal...am I correct ?
So, my guess is that , with the actual technology, no matter which camcorder,dsrl or whatever we connect to the atomos (except for maybe 2 or 3 items), we will record on the Atomos a signal that in quality is lower than the one recorded directly in the camera/camcorder....
Next step should be, push the camera and camcorder manufactures to add NON compressed HDMI output signals in their cameras....
What about firewires ?
Many old HD mini dv camcorders offer firewire connections ,and firewire recorders exist...do these firewire recorders also have a problem because they get from the camcorder a lower quality sigal from te camcorder firewire output ?
Thank you
David Shapton
Well-known member
A couple of words of clarification here:
1080 60p is not a viable format because nothing supports it yet. Even if you can get it out of the camera, you can't play it back on anything. It's not a broadcast format. It's time may come, but it's time is not now. Yes, what comes out of the camera is most likely to be 60i, or 24p wrapped as 60i.
HDMI can NEVER output a compressed signal. HDMI is always uncompressed. The Ninja captures it and encodes it into ProRes, which is a visually-lossless codec - ie it looks the same as uncompressed.
Because of this, the Ninja records a signal that is BETTER than the one recorded on the camera, because it uses a better codec at a higher bitrate. Firewire ONLY carries a COMPRESSED signal. It is a completely different system to HDMI.
I hope this helps.
Dave Shapton
Atomos
Barry_Green
Moderator
If you are recording 60p on a camera that supports 1080/60p, then yes, the on board recorder will be better than an external recorder, because the camera most likely cannot send that full 60p signal out the Hdmi port.
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Dear Mr. Shapton, thank you for your reply.
I am still NOT clear about if it is really true that a signal registered using an atomos would be better than the signal registered in camera in 60p....if u see the below reply, ucan understand why:
I can not understand how the atomos video signal recoded from an HDMI out of a camcorder, that gives out a signal that is NOT comparable to the one recorded in camera, but is instead comparable to the one seen on the LCD, can be better than the quality of the video signal recorded in the camera.
I think that the atomos is a great idea, but I am NOT sure if right NOW its potential can be applied to any camcorder or dsrl. It seems to me that camcorder and dsrl are behind th atomos idea, and maybe due to the fact (especially for dsrl) that they want to differentiate the dsrl market from the camcorder market. Dsrl have the 4gb limit that makes them on a different level in comparison to the camcorders. I guess manufactures want us to buy both a camcorder and a dsrl, that is why many dsrl do not even have a good useful video signal for the atomos , coming out of their dsrl.
I am still puzzled if buying nowdays an atomos and connecting it for example to a panasonic tm900 that records in camera at 60p, would give me on the atomos a better video quality....
Could you please clarify this to me ?
Thank you very much.
Regards.
Marco
Bu the way, regarding the HyperDeck Shuttle, which type of hard disk will support ?
At that point, if I have to waste my money in buying something that record videos externally from the camera, in a lower quality (NOT progressive), I would also look other options at a lower price
Thank you
At that point, if I have to waste my money in buying something that record videos externally from the camera, in a lower quality (NOT progressive), I would also look other options at a lower price
Thank you
David Shapton
Well-known member
I don't think the Hyperdeck Shuttle supports hard disks, but I may be wrong about this - you should ask BlackMagic.
The Ninja does not record 60p. So if your camera records 60p, that is the only way to get a 60p signal from it. 60p is not a broadcast standard and there is little point in using it at the moment, because playback options are very limited.
It is difficult to make comparisons between a camera that records at 60p internally but in a highly compressed form, and recording externally at a lower framerate, but uncompressed. You would certainly see a reduction in motion artifacts with an external recorder.
Yes, the Atomos Ninja is a great idea, and a very large number of people are using them now. In fact, most DSLRs do not output a "clean" HDMI signal. More often than not, they superimpose Viewfinder information in the video signal, and this will be recorded by any external recorder. As far as I know, only the GH2 currently gives an HDMI output without this problem.
Dave Shapton
Atomos
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, I think part of that confusion is coming from your desire to use 1080/60p. Because that's the part that's nonstandard. 60p is not an actual video standard yet. Yes, I know some cameras have it, but it has not been codified and standardized. It is not a broadcast standard.
Not sure I follow you, so let's be clear: the Ninja is not for DSLR users. DSLRs cannot properly take advantage of what the Ninja does, because the DSLRs do not output clean video signals, and even what they do output is low quality so it doesn't make much (if any) sense to record it. So if you want to talk about the Ninja's benefits, you should just forget DSLRs. As for camcorders -- there are millions of low-quality HDV camcorders out there, that have good lenses and good sensors and good HDMI ports on them, but are stuck with the absolutely horrible HDV format. The Ninja would give a substantial boost in image quality to anyone using an HDV camera.
There is possibly a boost to be had for someone using an AVCHD camera too, depending on the quality of AVCHD they're using, but the biggest and undeniable benefits would come to those who have made an investment in HDV cameras and who are now able to get higher-quality, better recording with higher color sampling, elimination of all motion artifacting, and all the benefits of tapeless recording.
And even for cameras that have decent or good recording formats like AVCHD or XDCAM-EX, there are still benefits that can be gotten from using a Ninja. The Ninja records 4:2:2 color, those camcorder formats are 4:2:0. And the Ninja records in ProRes MOV format, so people who use Apple's editing systems now have the capability to directly drag and drop the footage right to the timeline, something they've never really been able to do before. That is common practice on Windows with basically any camcorder format, but on the Mac it's pretty much unheard of until now with the invention of external ProRes recorders.
DSLRs are not camcorders. They're still cameras that happen to have a motion feature added to them. They don't do what camcorders do.
That's like saying manufacturers want you to buy both a car and a motorcycle. The DSLR is different from the video camera. The DSLR shoots stills. The video camera shoots video. DSLRs have a sort of video feature in them, but that is not the job they were designed to do.
It most definitely will not. If you want 60p, your ONLY choice is to record it internally.
Sorry to bump in Barry, but I need you to make an FS100 book so I can figure out how to use it ;-) I was excited about the FS100 because of its 1080p60 slo-mo. I am naive and don't understand. Why is it is an option on the FS100 if can't use it, or do I change it on my timeline in Premiere later?
Drat! Are you saying if I buy a D7000 as a B or c camera that I can hook-up the Ninja and get ProRes 422 out of it? HOw about tge GH2? I recall reading in this thread it does hdmi out?
I was looking at FS100, D7000 or if need be the GH2 and a VG10 three camera set-up and was hoping one recorder could bridge footage from all three. Is this viable?
David Shapton
Well-known member
@olindacat
Couple of things here: When you're overcranking, the recording is made internally. HDMI doesn't handle 60p so it isn't sent to the Ninja. In any case, the data rate with 1080 60p is too high for the Ninja.
The problem with DSLRs (apart from GH2s) is that they pollute the HDMI output with viewfinder junk like white squares and red dots. Sometimes this can be misleading: the 7D looks fine until someone walks into a shot, and then the face-recognition kicks in and you get a white square tracking the person. This fooled us at first! We thought it worked OK and then discovered this when someone walked across the shot.
The FS100 and VG10 work fine with the Ninja.
Dave Shapton
Atomos
Couple of things here: When you're overcranking, the recording is made internally. HDMI doesn't handle 60p so it isn't sent to the Ninja. In any case, the data rate with 1080 60p is too high for the Ninja.
The problem with DSLRs (apart from GH2s) is that they pollute the HDMI output with viewfinder junk like white squares and red dots. Sometimes this can be misleading: the 7D looks fine until someone walks into a shot, and then the face-recognition kicks in and you get a white square tracking the person. This fooled us at first! We thought it worked OK and then discovered this when someone walked across the shot.
The FS100 and VG10 work fine with the Ninja.
Dave Shapton
Atomos
Barry_Green
Moderator
1080/60p for slow-mo isn't a problem, depending on how it's recorded. The AF100 records 1080/60p for slow-mo purposes, with playback at 24fps (2.5:1 slow-mo) or 30fps (2:1 slow mo). And that's totally compliant with all standards and works fine.
And I think the FS100 can do that too, using its "slow & quick" mode.
But there's another type of 60p, which is 60p for 60fps playback. That's otherwise known as the "live" look -- not for slow-mo, but for live playback. It looks like 720p HD, but sharper. And that's the mode that's not standardized yet.
The FS100 can do it, and the TM700/TM900 can do it. The AF100 doesn't do that mode, it only records 60p for slow-mo, or as 720p, but not 1080/60p-for-60p playback.
In any case, I don't believe any of the cameras under discussion can output 1080/60p over their HDMI ports, and I know for a fact they can't output it over their SDI ports, because HD-SDI can't even handle 1080/60p.
So, once again, it all becomes a moot question when talking about using an external recorder. Are there even any external recorders that can handle 1080/60p? I haven't looked too much into it, but I don't think there are any.
If you want 1080/60p for slow-mo, you're going to be recording it to the camera's internal recorder.
As David already answered, there's little point (if any) in hooking a DSLR up to a Ninja (or any other external recorder). The only one that can be used at all, as intended, would be the GH2, and that has a spate of problems with its signal that make it more problematic. It has a nonstandard frame rate with a double-layer pulldown, it has garbled 4:2:2 chroma, and it has inaccurate color output. It's a $899 digital still camera, not a professional video camera, and its output was never designed to be recorded. You can run a script in post that overcomes many of these issues, but you'll still not have 4:2:2 or 10-bit. The only benefit you get from jumping through the hoops, is a less-compressed image. Which, simultaneously, takes up 10x as much space, and eliminates several useful features (such as disabling 720p mode, and the ETC mode).
If you find that worthwhile in spite of the drawbacks, then the GH2 is the one DSLR-style camera that could be used with an external recorder. Any other model, it's just not viable. (and, again, that is not the fault of the Ninja or the Nano or any of the recorders, it's because the cameras are not designed to output a recordable signal).
Well, again -- yes and no. Yes you can record the 60i output of any of those, but should you? In several cases, no. The FS100 already has a pretty good codec on it, and if you want to use 60p it's not going to work, the FS100 can't output 60p. The D7000 likely has a cluttered up display that's not worth recording, although I haven't tried that particular model. I would hope the VG10 has a clean output but don't know. And the GH2 can be used with it, with the above-listed complications and restrictions.
Would the NEX5 work well w/Ninja? I understand it has the same sensor as VG10 and I did see it doing HDMI out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5PCoJllJaE
(I'm seeing this as a way to use my glass on an inexpensive 3rd cam.)
(I'm seeing this as a way to use my glass on an inexpensive 3rd cam.)
David Shapton
Well-known member
I've heard from a customer that you can't get a clean HDMI output from the NEX5. I've looked at your YouTube link and that seems to confirm this: the only "clean" pictures appeared to be still captures that had been post-processed. So, even though it's closely related to the VG10 (which does give a very good HDMI output) it doesn't look like this little camera is any good with an external recorder. (Unless Sony releases an update!).
Dave Shapton
Atomos