BlackMagic CEO Denies Existence of Fixed Pattern Noise in BMC4K

Was at Cinegear Expo last month. FPN can be seen on the URSA. Saw it on the Cion as well. I spoke with the rep from AJA and he was pretty open about it and sounded optimistic.
 
Benjobe said:
I agree completely. It took me less than a week to determine that the BMPCC wasn't a good fit for my business and so I sold it to someone else who has been enjoying it.




Could you please point me to these "cries" on BMD's forum? I've looked and I could not find any. And could you please explain how you've decided that I "have a bone to pick with BMD"? I know you to be a reasonable contributor to these forums and I seriously think that you've mistaken me for someone else.

For what it's worth, I posted this story because I thought it was valuable to hear from BMD's CEO about the 4K fixed pattern noise and the firmware updates. There's been a lot of BMC users posting in these forums about possible firmware updates that will fix the shortcomings of the cameras. I thought it'd be nice to know from the source that these firmware updates may not be coming after all. In the end, you and others here are right that you should never buy a camera hoping for it to become any different than when you bought it. And early adopters get stuck with all the unexpected shortcomings.
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Maybe I have mistaken you. Just not sure anymore as there is so many posts about BMD's failures I can't keep track of them anymore.

But here is where I stand concerning BMD and their cameras. I've had the BMCEFv1 and I now have the BMC4K. Both have had, continue to have, and will have issues. Multiple issues! Most cameras have issues. I understand that it's hard to not like the image from the BMC's. They can and do deliver great images. The thing is understanding their tolerances and limits. You just got to live with it if you want to shoot BMC. Then, it really boils down to what you're shooting and what the conditions are. They are not jack of all traits cameras.

I've held onto the BMC4K mostly for the global shutter and now with RAW the camera has more possibilities. But, I understand that the shot will have to have good ample lighting for my mind to be confident in using it for the shot. For most other things my main camera today is the Gh4. It just delivers and has that Jack of all trait factor to it. I also own the C100 but I've pretty much settled on having 4K from this point forward. The C100 will probably be sold off. Great camera! Actually, outstanding camera the C100 is. Then, yesterday I bought the A7s knowing that the shogun will get me the 4K. It's now my lowlight camera.

So, I have the Gh4 as my main go to camera. The BMC4K for global shutter or RAW shots. The Sony A7s for my lowlight or maybe even quick interview 1080 projects. What I'm trying to say is that if you are going to have only one camera and you shoot lots of different things, the BMD cameras are a gamble. Especially the BMC4k. While each of them delivers wonderful images, one must weigh how they operate for you and how they might bite you on a certain project.

I understand the frustration of how BMD has gone about releases, updates, support, marketing, and communication. I was right there with the pitch fork crowd. Then I realized I don't want to be pitch forking for my camera because in the back of my mind the camera is going to give me less confidence. So I moved on from considering BMD cameras as my main tool. But the BMC4K sits in the camera case at the ready for when a shot might pop up where I know the BMC4K will give me the feel I want or need from it.

And here is a reason the Gh4 is my A camera now. Obviously internal 4K that is just awesome. The camera is easy to work with and is reliable. It has the tools I like to work in a video space. It has lots of flexibility in terms of color profile to resolution and frame rate sizes. The battery on it is just plain the best I've ever seen from and internal battery. I shot for two hours out of a helicopter yesterday and the battery still has half charge!. It's small and discrete. 10 bit out to 4K coming once the shogun arrives. Well built.

Shot from the air yesterday. Lot's of room to play with the image....
HB 4K.jpg
 
That's a real nice abstract composition. The X looks like an old airport.

Re Cion and BM*, the FPN issue is going to be the battle royale for best firmware programmer honors.
 
We've seen FPN cut back substantially with the new BMPC 4k firmware (1.9). Big improvement, and a solid image. The camera still has it's quirks, but I much prefer it over DSLRs in a more controlled setting.
 
So has the FPN issue been resolved in the firmware update cause if so I may finally take the plunge.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
There are not - but there is no reason to choose an Ursa except lower price - it has no technical or aesthetic advantages, and many disadvantages, over any number of competing products - even a Red One MX is a far better camera in terms of all aspects of image quality. URSA is just cheaper. Fair enough - you get what you pay for, and when I was a student I would have been very excited to have access to BM cameras, but I would never use them on a pro job - it's just dumb to skimp on cameras, when everything else is so expensive on a pro shoot, and you can rent a Scarlet for $400 a day (and a Scarlet saves you money on lighting because it is so forgiving, so it ends up costing less than $0 to rent one).
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Well....

..choosing your camera by price tag would be a really poor thing for any DP.

I shoot a feature film during August, and could have a Dragon if I wanted, but I decided to rather shoot on BMC.
Price tag and budget had nothing to do with it.
 
Postmaster said:
Well....

..choosing your camera by price tag would be a really poor thing for any DP.

I shoot a feature film during August, and could have a Dragon if I wanted, but I decided to rather shoot on BMC.
Price tag and budget had nothing to do with it.
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Whaat? There is nothing the BMC does better than any RED, even the MX. Except being smaller and quieter.
 
thekreative said:
Unless you love the look and many LOVE the look..... yes in capitals.
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The look is oversharpening you can't remove in post, whereas you can add (better) sharpening in post. This looks appealing if you don't understand much about post and never photograph women.

The "look" is also far less dynamic range, and harshly clipping whites. No serious film project has ever (EVER) used BM as a main camera, whereas all Reds except scarlet have been A-cameras on many large prods. There is no look advantage that anyone with even rudimentary skills in color grading could not better or exceed in minutes using Red, Alexa, etc.

People want to justify why just because they're broke they can have a camera that is as good or better than a truly professional device, and delude themselves to no end to make themselves believe that. When I was broke/a student we shot on DV, but at least we didn't make ludicrous claims that it was as good or (laughs hard) better than what those more advanced in their careers were using. It's a $3000 camera - it's good value, but not insane value. It;s never going to look better than Red, after at least semi-competent grading, period. Cameras when good do not really have looks, they have good data integrity, that good grading has room to work with.

if it were any good at that price I would have bought ten of them, but testing proves it's maybe as good as a $5000 camera, not more than that. $5000 of value for $3000, really, is more than fair enough and still a good buy if you;'re very strapped for cash and renting is difficult in your market.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
The look is oversharpening you can't remove in post, whereas you can add (better) sharpening in post. This looks appealing if you don't understand much about post and never photograph women.

The "look" is also far less dynamic range, and harshly clipping whites. No serious film project has ever (EVER) used BM as a main camera, whereas all Reds except scarlet have been A-cameras on many large prods. There is no look advantage that anyone with even rudimentary skills in color grading could not better or exceed in minutes using Red, Alexa, etc.

People want to justify why just because they're broke they can have a camera that is as good or better than a truly professional device, and delude themselves to no end to make themselves believe that. When I was broke/a student we shot on DV, but at least we didn't make ludicrous claims that it was as good or (laughs hard) better than what those more advanced in their careers were using. It's a $3000 camera - it's good value, but not insane value. It;s never going to look better than Red, after at least semi-competent grading, period. Cameras when good do not really have looks, they have good data integrity, that good grading has room to work with.

if it were any good at that price I would have bought ten of them, but testing proves it's maybe as good as a $5000 camera, not more than that. $5000 of value for $3000, really, is more than fair enough and still a good buy if you;'re very strapped for cash and renting is difficult in your market.
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This post makes too many assumptions and is too biased.

From what I've seen, RED-cameras have had really bad skin tones, and from using Scarlet myself plenty of times I can also say it isn't that great with skin tones, I've used 16mm film, so that is my gold standard (for color) and even though I haven't used BMs cameras, what I've seen from the net they are better in color than RED. Now the new Dragon is probably a step up, but I haven't used it. Case being, in order to get good skin tones you need a fair amount of grading (which cost time/money) with the RED.

"This looks appealing if you don't understand much about post and never photograph women." - This quote just shows how little you know and that you assume his movie is about making women look gorgeous. This just also makes me think of the shooting of Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf, "Academy Award-winning cinematographer Harry Stradling Sr. was replaced by Haskell Wexler just after filming began for attempting to "beautify" Elizabeth Taylor." Wexler went on to win an Oscar for his work on the movie.

I much more prefer people that choose the camera and style that is "right" for the project than anything else. 28 Days Later being a great example too.

Anyways, what you think is your opinion which is all fine and dandy but you make judgments way to early and I also don't think you have the right idea of the "quality" of RED (now I haven't mentioned Alexa yet, because that one is actually really really good with skin tones, but ARRI is ARRI, they been around in the game for a long time).
 
Robert Ruffo said:
People want to justify why just because they're broke they can have a camera that is as good or better than a truly professional device,
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LOL - our budget for catering/craft service is more, than the Red rental would have been - not sure if this qualifies as "broke".

I shoot and grade a lot of Red, and I can get better results in less time out of my uncompressed raw DNGs from the BMC,
as out of the Red material, which needs much more pampering in post (and don't get me into Red skintones and the problems the Dragon has, since the new OPLF)

Regarding sharpness, every DP I know, uses diffusion filters on every digital camera anyway (not just on girls faces), so what's the point?

If you get "harshly clipping whites" on a BMC, you do something fundamentally wrong - I was cutting BMC material together with Alexa material and after all was said and done,
nobody was able to tell what was shot with which camera.
 
Postmaster said:
I shoot and grade a lot of Red, and I can get better results in less time out of my uncompressed raw DNGs from the BMC,
as out of the Red material, which needs much more pampering in post (and don't get me into Red skintones and the problems the Dragon has, since the new OPLF)
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Ok, next time you have an Epic and the BMC side-by-side, why not shoot some side-by-sides? These things so easily degrade into "I can do this and that when I don't actually do them at the same time, I just have a feeeling yeah!"

Same thing goes for "skintones" talk. People easily go into hyperbole mode about which cameras has which skintones and when you actually put them side-by-side their differences will be subtle (especially with RAW- cams) and if they're not usually a little grading is enough to bring both cams 99% close to one another.

I was cutting BMC material together with Alexa material and after all was said and done, nobody was able to tell what was shot with which camera.
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So? Once my assistant thought I was editing Red material which actually was shot with the 5d in h264. Funny but doesn't really mean much. BMC should be quite easy to separate from Alexa by being unnaturally sharp with aliased lines.
 
maarek said:
Ok, next time you have an Epic and the BMC side-by-side, why not shoot some side-by-sides? .
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I already did that. I had quite a few productions where we shot with both cameras side by side.
The last one, won the Remi Gold Award at the World fest in Huston.

maarek said:
BMC should be quite easy to separate from Alexa by being unnaturally sharp with aliased lines.
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Technically, having a OLPF in front of a sensor is nothing "natural" - on the other hand, if this is what you want, OLPF for BMC is available in a few weeks, so it's a no brainer.
 
Having worked with BMCC, Alexa, and Red in post on several projects, the only advantage Red and Alexa have over the BMCC is high speed. They have great support, but at 10-20 times the price, I would rent them for special occasions only. BMCC and Alexa are the better choices for green/blue screen as Reds blue channel has noise that makes pulling mattes a nightmare if the DP didn't light the screen well, and most don't these days. If you like to roto, Red is your camera.
 
Only advantage is high speed? I've used the Epic lots and also the BMCC. BMCC has bad rolling shutter a lot worse than the Epic. Like Canon Mark II bad or worse. You try using it handheld or shoot a fast moving subject or pan fast and it's jello city. If one of the actors has a fine pattern in their clothes you run into moire, not just clothes, but buildings, record grooves, waves etc. I don't know what people in this thread are shooting, but for me the rolling shutter alone counts for a lot. Rolloffs into highlights are better on the Epic as is the coloration and color science. I use the BMCC for an insert camera or B camera, knowing it's limitations. It's great as a cheap insert camera where it can be locked down.

Now back on topic ... Good for Blackmagic that they addressed the FPN issue in part on their BMPC.
 
Doctor Wu said:
Only advantage is high speed? I've used the Epic lots and also the BMCC. BMCC has bad rolling shutter a lot worse than the Epic. Like Canon Mark II bad or worse. You try using it handheld or shoot a fast moving subject or pan fast and it's jello city. If one of the actors has a fine pattern in their clothes you run into moire, not just clothes, but buildings, record grooves, waves etc. I don't know what people in this thread are shooting, but for me the rolling shutter alone counts for a lot. Rolloffs into highlights are better on the Epic as is the coloration and color science. I use the BMCC for an insert camera or B camera, knowing it's limitations. It's great as a cheap insert camera where it can be locked down.

Now back on topic ... Good for Blackmagic that they addressed the FPN issue in part on their BMPC.
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Moire solved with mosaics filter for Blackmagic cameras. Post plug ins solves the majority of rolling shutter issues. The price you pay for cheap cameras is some extra steps but the issues you bring up are solvable and i would say acceptable when the price of ownership of the cameras is equal to several days of an Epic rental.
 
Since this thread is about the 4K camera I am curious if you have you only used the Cinema Camera or also the 4K camera? With the global shutter on the 4K I would think the rolling shutter would not be an issue.
 
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