BlackMagic CEO Denies Existence of Fixed Pattern Noise in BMC4K

B

Benjobe

Well-known member
Apparently the CEO of BlackMagic Design doesn't believe there's anything wrong with the BMC4K, that if people are getting bad results then it's their fault, and that the clamor for firmware updates for camera flaws is just an invention of the sensationalist press and/or internet trolls.

Skip ahead to 30:00 to hear it for yourself.

http://nofilmschool.com/2014/06/blackmagic-cinema-4k-ursa-camera-grant-petty-nab-2014-interview/

Personally, I'm disappointed by this revelation, and I don't think it bodes well for the future of BM as a camera maker.

Full disclosure: I was an early adopter of the BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera and after playing with it a couple weeks I discerned that it wasn't a good fit for my workflow or my business. Now I'm extra glad that I made that decision.
 
You're misrepresenting what he said. He didn't deny it was an issue, he said it was an isolated issue that had been dealt with. Now, I don't know if that's true, but that's what he said.

As for the stuff he said about internet FUD? That was spot on, even if he's wrong in saying that internet FUD is all there is to this particular issue.
 
Lee Saxon said:
You're misrepresenting what he said. He didn't deny it was an issue, he said it was an isolated issue that had been dealt with. Now, I don't know if that's true, but that's what he said.

As for the stuff he said about internet FUD? That was spot on, even if he's wrong in saying that internet FUD is all there is to this particular issue.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And the rest of the interview has given me a lot of respect for them and hope for the future (even if it is mostly PR nonsense).
 
It's worth noting that since this interview is three months old it might not represent BMD's current position on the issue.

Gary
 
I want so bad for whatever issues there are with this cam to be worked out. The footage is just down right gorgeous.
 
I exchanged emails with BMD USA last week and they acknowledged that they were trying to correct the FPN with a firmware fix. It is still an issue under certain shooting conditions.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
Not really - which is why no top DP, no big production - no one is using it except those very short on funds.
Click to expand...
For a camera that`s just been out a couple of month there are other obvious reasons why we haven`t seen a full fledged production with the BMC4K.
Hint: It takes time to make a movie.
Besides that - are there any "top DP" or "big production" at all relying on sub 4000$ cameras...?
 
Spartacus said:
For a camera that`s just been out a couple of month there are other obvious reasons why we haven`t seen a full fledged production with the BMC4K.
Hint: It takes time to make a movie.
Besides that - are there any "top DP" or "big production" at all relying on sub 4000$ cameras...?
Click to expand...

There are not - but there is no reason to choose an Ursa except lower price - it has no technical or aesthetic advantages, and many disadvantages, over any number of competing products - even a Red One MX is a far better camera in terms of all aspects of image quality. URSA is just cheaper. Fair enough - you get what you pay for, and when I was a student I would have been very excited to have access to BM cameras, but I would never use them on a pro job - it's just dumb to skimp on cameras, when everything else is so expensive on a pro shoot, and you can rent a Scarlet for $400 a day (and a Scarlet saves you money on lighting because it is so forgiving, so it ends up costing less than $0 to rent one).
 
Give me a 4k black magic with the low light issues fixed and i'm good. I could care less what big name high profile DPs are doing. I dont't follow other dps and their likes, and my purchases arent shaped by who's doing what. I love black magics look. Period. I personaly don't care for the look of red and prefer the look of the bmcc better than bmpc 4k and some of the red line. Remember its mostly subjective.

And Robert you have to come to terms with individuals having an opinion that differs from yours. Their are plenty of individuals on here that will not feel the same way as yourself about the cams u like. You and I make up a very small percentage on this site so your opinion is just that and could never be taken as fact. We are all trying to learn from eachother on here and we have to be able to respect one anothers views.
 
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reem12 said:
Give me a 4k black magic with the low light issues fixed and i'm good. I could care less what big name high profile DPs are doing. I dont't follow other dps and their likes, and my purchases arent shaped by who's doing what. I love black magics look. Period. I personaly don't care for the look of red and prefer the look of the bmcc better than bmpc 4k and some of the red line. Remember its mostly subjective.

And Robert you have to come to terms with individuals having an opinion that differs from yours. Their are plenty of individuals on here that will not feel the same way as yourself about the cams u like. You and I make up a very small percentage on this site so your opinion is just that and could never be taken as fact. We are all trying to learn from eachother on here and we have to be able to respect one anothers views.
Click to expand...

sigh… You miss the point completely. the point is, those DPs make wise decisions because they spend a lot of time on those decisons, and have access to a lot more direct information than you do.

Also, you can't have an opinion about a technical fact. You can only be right or wrong. It has nothing to do with personal opinion or feelings, or respect. It's not really subjective either. Things like dynamic range are just a number. More is always better, period, regardless of any "feelings". You can scientifically test things like this.

Red does not have a look, per say, like a DSLR does. It all depends on grading - which many amateurs fail at completely. Red presents a set of potentials - the rest is up to you. I guarantee you would be surprised at how many times you are watching Red footage without realizing it.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
Not really - which is why no top DP, no big production - no one is using it except those very short on funds.
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Man, seems like you just want to ruffle some feathers. We're on dvxuser, where 95% of the membership is short on funds. So?

Check the 2nd part of this test...you won't find footage like that on any other sub 10k camera. Again, that's a big part of why we're here.

https://vimeo.com/98725926
 
Robert Ruffo said:
Red does not have a look, per say, like a DSLR does. It all depends on grading - which many amateurs fail at completely. Red presents a set of potentials - the rest is up to you.
Click to expand...
I'll agree with that about 95%. You are absolutely correct to say that in the world of RAW, talk of the "look" of a camera (let alone a manufacturer) just does not have the meaning it used to. Once you get into the world of RAW, factors which were historically "burnt in" to the design of a camera now do indeed depend on grading, deBayering software - the actual camera is becoming increasingly just "a chip". The art - the "look" - is now far more to do with software.

That said, there still are some things that are camera dependent - rolling or global shutter being the one that first springs to mind. (Which is why I only agree 95% - not 100 :) ) But then (as with FPN) it's not really subjective, everybody I know would prefer global shutter over rolling for example, all else equal.

Given the choice of an FS700 or an F5, I know which I'd prefer - the F5 is simply a far better camera, with more options, is more expandable, and has much better inbuilt codec options. (Should be, it's more expensive.) But what's interesting are the comparative tests that have been carried out between them in RAW mode - little intrinsic quality difference, it's all down to the processing software. That really shouldn't be a surprise.

Go back about 20 years and so much of the look of a camera was fixed at the time of manufacturing. Hence it was (rightly) thought that, for example, Panasonic cameras had a more "filmic" look, Sony were more "realistic". No right or wrong - it depends on subject. Move forward about 10 years and manufacturers started to allow far more user adjustment to the camera lineup, and that was especially true as software menus took over from screwdriver adjustments. It became possible to give Panasonic cameras the traditional Sony "look" and vice versa - at least at the higher end of the ranges. Nowadays, in RAW mode, those adjustments have moved to the world of post and software.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
There are not - but there is no reason to choose an Ursa except lower price - it has no technical or aesthetic advantages, and many disadvantages, over any number of competing products - even a Red One MX is a far better camera in terms of all aspects of image quality. URSA is just cheaper. Fair enough - you get what you pay for, and when I was a student I would have been very excited to have access to BM cameras, but I would never use them on a pro job - it's just dumb to skimp on cameras, when everything else is so expensive on a pro shoot, and you can rent a Scarlet for $400 a day (and a Scarlet saves you money on lighting because it is so forgiving, so it ends up costing less than $0 to rent one).
Click to expand...

Can you point me to some footage from the Ursa, I'd like to see this poor image quality that you have seen.
 
Here is the really cool part....If you don't like BMD cameras you can keep your wallet in the drawer and not buy it. Why fuss about it. If you bought one and don't like it, return it.

I have the BMC4K. I also have the C100, Gh4, a couple Canon Mk3's and 2's, Ax100, RX10, XF100, 70D. Might get the A7s??? They all do something different than the other. You want the perfect camera? Keep dreaming because it doesn't exist. Each one has an issue or two and each one has an attribute or two. But it all boils down to what attributes you have. The BMC4k is NOT a lowlight camera. Hence the word "production" in its title. Meaning, load up the lights in the truck.

Now the post from the OP is a guy that cries on BMD's own forum. He has a bone to pick with BMD because he bought the wrong camera for the obviously wrong reasons. Sell the camera dude. Buy something else. BMD said in the beginning that this camera was not for low light. I mean, a camera with a top ISO 800 should clearly state that on it's own.....
 
Buid your own dream. If you only have resources to build a mud house, then so be it. Build it to the best of your ability. Learn from the mistakes and then go on to build a better mud house. Make it an art. Don't worry that others are living in some steel and mortar houses. Create some art.

Film is a medium of telling your story. One needs to work around the limitations to create a compelling story. Whether it is the BMC or the Red or a Canon or a GoPro. It is important to innovate to make use of whatever we have, rather than crying for things that we don't have. I think we waste way too much time fretting over cameras instead of shooting.
 
harddrive said:
I'll agree with that about 95%. You are absolutely correct to say that in the world of RAW, talk of the "look" of a camera (let alone a manufacturer) just does not have the meaning it used to. Once you get into the world of RAW, factors which were historically "burnt in" to the design of a camera now do indeed depend on grading, deBayering software - the actual camera is becoming increasingly just "a chip". The art - the "look" - is now far more to do with software.

That said, there still are some things that are camera dependent - rolling or global shutter being the one that first springs to mind. (Which is why I only agree 95% - not 100 :) ) But then (as with FPN) it's not really subjective, everybody I know would prefer global shutter over rolling for example, all else equal.

Given the choice of an FS700 or an F5, I know which I'd prefer - the F5 is simply a far better camera, with more options, is more expandable, and has much better inbuilt codec options. (Should be, it's more expensive.) But what's interesting are the comparative tests that have been carried out between them in RAW mode - little intrinsic quality difference, it's all down to the processing software. That really shouldn't be a surprise.

Go back about 20 years and so much of the look of a camera was fixed at the time of manufacturing. Hence it was (rightly) thought that, for example, Panasonic cameras had a more "filmic" look, Sony were more "realistic". No right or wrong - it depends on subject. Move forward about 10 years and manufacturers started to allow far more user adjustment to the camera lineup, and that was especially true as software menus took over from screwdriver adjustments. It became possible to give Panasonic cameras the traditional Sony "look" and vice versa - at least at the higher end of the ranges. Nowadays, in RAW mode, those adjustments have moved to the world of post and software.
Click to expand...

I have often seen Red footage, for example, with a similar "look". Could it be that people that gravitate towards certain cameras often like to grade in a similar way which might create the impression of a "look" even if it's not burnt into the camera?
 
dustylense said:
Here is the really cool part....If you don't like BMD cameras you can keep your wallet in the drawer and not buy it. Why fuss about it. If you bought one and don't like it, return it.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. It took me less than a week to determine that the BMPCC wasn't a good fit for my business and so I sold it to someone else who has been enjoying it.


dustylense said:
Now the post from the OP is a guy that cries on BMD's own forum. He has a bone to pick with BMD because he bought the wrong camera for the obviously wrong reasons. Sell the camera dude. Buy something else. BMD said in the beginning that this camera was not for low light. I mean, a camera with a top ISO 800 should clearly state that on it's own.....
Click to expand...

Could you please point me to these "cries" on BMD's forum? I've looked and I could not find any. And could you please explain how you've decided that I "have a bone to pick with BMD"? I know you to be a reasonable contributor to these forums and I seriously think that you've mistaken me for someone else.

For what it's worth, I posted this story because I thought it was valuable to hear from BMD's CEO about the 4K fixed pattern noise and the firmware updates. There's been a lot of BMC users posting in these forums about possible firmware updates that will fix the shortcomings of the cameras. I thought it'd be nice to know from the source that these firmware updates may not be coming after all. In the end, you and others here are right that you should never buy a camera hoping for it to become any different than when you bought it. And early adopters get stuck with all the unexpected shortcomings.
 
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