Black Magic PocketHD and 4K production camera

I preordered the pocket and the 4k (got in an order at BH yesterday morning, hopefully early in line). I love my BMCC and look forward to adding to the family. To me I think they will all have their uses and if I ever need to sell them, I know I will be able to do so at or near my cost. But these guys are keepers.

I believe in technology and blackmagic is proving to be THE company that embraces new technology and open formats. They are taking over where RED left off (as RED chases the Hollywood moguls with Arri).

Let's just look at RAW for a second. One of the big complaints is that you can only hold about 75 minutes of RAW 2.5k footage on the biggest affordable ssd (512gb). Well, now that limitation is dead. Crucial just released the m500 960gb ssd which is as fast as any ssd available and is available on amazon for $570. So for about $600 you can now store about 2 and a half hours of raw footage on the BMCC. That's the advantage of buying into blackmagic who supports standard hardware and open formats. You don't have to buy that special RED ssd that costs $1200 or more. They allow you to actually leverage technology instead of using that leverage themselves to deepen their products.

I also trust blackmagic because of their experience in post production. They aren't going to release a camera that doesn't have an amazing image quality, because image quality is what they know so well. Also, even though they had issues with the production of the BMCC they have released dozens and dozens of products. This is not a new company coming out of the blue to release a cool new camera. The cameras they are releasing are just an inevitable evolution of their ever expanding product line.

Finally, their products are so refreshing because they don't have the obvious limitations that companies such as Canon impose to protect their product lines. I mean, who doesn't think it is more than a little ridiculous how small the differences are between the 13k c300 and the 6k c100? The big difference is the intentionally weakened non-broadcast quality codec of the c100. If nothing else, I really hope the blackmagic camera line puts an end to this kind of business practice by the big camera makers. We have stood for this kind of crap for too long. Time to make a stand with our wallets.
 
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Sfernald said:
Finally, their products are so refreshing because they don't have the obvious limitations that companies such as Canon impose to protect their product lines. I mean, who doesn't think it is more than a little ridiculous how small the differences are between the 13k c300 and the 6k c100? The big difference is the intentionally weakened non-broadcast quality codec of the c100. If nothing else, I really hope the blackmagic camera line puts an end to this kind of business practice by the big camera makers. We have stood for this kind of crap for too long. Time to make a stand with our wallets.
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. . .uh, I think only a modicum of fact checking would reveal that the Canon C cameras pretty much rule independent broadcast production at the moment, and that includes the C100. In my wildest fever-ridden nightmare I could not conceive of shooting a long form show for broadcast on a BMCC (or really anything with uncompressed RAW) but good luck with that. I think any savings in the camera department will evaporate in the media-storage array required to handle all that 4K RAW goodness.

Oh man, I get off the grid for 48 hours and return to 33 pages of the camera-preorder-circus-that-will-not-die. Frankly I'm surprised Black Magic could show their faces with another non-camera announcement after last years debacle.
 
Sfernald said:
Finally, their products are so refreshing because they don't have the obvious limitations that companies such as Canon impose to protect their product lines. I mean, who doesn't think it is more than a little ridiculous how small the differences are between the 13k c300 and the 6k c100? The big difference is the intentionally weakened non-broadcast quality codec of the c100. If nothing else, I really hope the blackmagic camera line puts an end to this kind of business practice by the big camera makers. We have stood for this kind of crap for too long. Time to make a stand with our wallets.
Click to expand...

That is a very good point and one since I've been saying for quite some time. BlackMagic inspires many. Their corporate philosophy does resemble Apple which is why so many have such affection for the company. They have responded to what the CINEMA professional has asked for.

It has been horrendous how Panasonic, Canon and Sony have put a bizarre strangle hold on us with such things as constrictive codecs to differentiate their (weak) product lines. It has been horrendous how slowly they've acted to respond to their customer's needs. The time from the 3 chip camera to the large single censor camera was too long. It was notably sparked by Red instead of listening to us, the film maker, and sent us through a period of using ridiculous 35mm focusing screen adaptors to dSLRs - which those myopic companies didn't even release for the purpose of film making or had the vision to know what gold they were setting free into the wild.

The time for change is now. Thank you BlackMagic Design for stepping up. The consumer has asked for this and only you have listened and so we shall respond with our power: the almighty dollar.
 
Question: Why are broadcast people posting here and why do they even care about this camera? This is clearly a cinema camera not intended for videographers. Your points are ridiculous to me. It's as if this were a film camera and you were saying: 'well, it's too difficult to shoot the news, or a wedding, or a web video on film'.

Right. So move on. This is not a broadcast camera.
 
Sfernald said:
I preordered the pocket and the 4k (got in an order at BH yesterday morning, hopefully early in line). I love my BMCC and look forward to adding to the family. To me I think they will all have their uses and if I ever need to sell them, I know I will be able to do so at or near my cost. But these guys are keepers.

I believe in technology and blackmagic is proving to be THE company that embraces new technology and open formats. They are taking over where RED left off (as RED chases the Hollywood moguls with Arri).

Let's just look at RAW for a second. One of the big complaints is that you can only hold about 75 minutes of RAW 2.5k footage on the biggest affordable ssd (512gb). Well, now that limitation is dead. Crucial just released the m500 960gb ssd which is as fast as any ssd available and is available on amazon for $570. So for about $600 you can now store about 2 and a half hours of raw footage on the BMCC. That's the advantage of buying into blackmagic who supports standard hardware and open formats. You don't have to buy that special RED ssd that costs $1200 or more. They allow you to actually leverage technology instead of using that leverage themselves to deepen their products.

I also trust blackmagic because of their experience in post production. They aren't going to release a camera that doesn't have an amazing image quality, because image quality is what they know so well. Also, even though they had issues with the production of the BMCC they have released dozens and dozens of products. This is not a new company coming out of the blue to release a cool new camera. The cameras they are releasing are just an inevitable evolution of their ever expanding product line.

Finally, their products are so refreshing because they don't have the obvious limitations that companies such as Canon impose to protect their product lines. I mean, who doesn't think it is more than a little ridiculous how small the differences are between the 13k c300 and the 6k c100? The big difference is the intentionally weakened non-broadcast quality codec of the c100. If nothing else, I really hope the blackmagic camera line puts an end to this kind of business practice by the big camera makers. We have stood for this kind of crap for too long. Time to make a stand with our wallets.
Click to expand...

For sure. All very valid points. I too am interested in the BMC4k. I will buy if it proves itself well, but only when it hits the shelves this time.
But you stack these cameras particularly agains the Canon C's. Which is fine as we all are stacking camera vs camera these days. Let's say you're a DOC shooter shooting in war torn Afghanistan? Which camera between the BMC4k or the C300 would you choose? Maybe you're a wedding shooter? Again with all the variables of weddings, which camera are you going to choose? What if your work is solely destined for corporate work on the web and is run and gun shooting? Which one gives you the balance?

Again, everything these days is "this camera is better than that camera". At what? It really boils down to what you "mostly" shoot and is required during the shoot.

Good thing the BMC cameras are at the price they are. They are worth far more than what we are paying for them. For that I agree 100% the luster of BMC cameras. But even still, it's not the perfect camera for everything. No camera is. But most of us like to own at least one camera right? The rest we can rent...

In the past 3 years, how many cameras have most of you owned? For me it's been 7. I think I'm with Philip Bloom when he says "Hey camera makers, slow down and just work on making cameras that will last a couple years".
 
Sfernald said:
I preordered the pocket and the 4k (got in an order at BH yesterday morning, hopefully early in line). I love my BMCC and look forward to adding to the family. To me I think they will all have their uses and if I ever need to sell them, I know I will be able to do so at or near my cost. But these guys are keepers.

I believe in technology and blackmagic is proving to be THE company that embraces new technology and open formats. They are taking over where RED left off (as RED chases the Hollywood moguls with Arri).

Let's just look at RAW for a second. One of the big complaints is that you can only hold about 75 minutes of RAW 2.5k footage on the biggest affordable ssd (512gb). Well, now that limitation is dead. Crucial just released the m500 960gb ssd which is as fast as any ssd available and is available on amazon for $570. So for about $600 you can now store about 2 and a half hours of raw footage on the BMCC. That's the advantage of buying into blackmagic who supports standard hardware and open formats. You don't have to buy that special RED ssd that costs $1200 or more. They allow you to actually leverage technology instead of using that leverage themselves to deepen their products.

I also trust blackmagic because of their experience in post production. They aren't going to release a camera that doesn't have an amazing image quality, because image quality is what they know so well. Also, even though they had issues with the production of the BMCC they have released dozens and dozens of products. This is not a new company coming out of the blue to release a cool new camera. The cameras they are releasing are just an inevitable evolution of their ever expanding product line.

Finally, their products are so refreshing because they don't have the obvious limitations that companies such as Canon impose to protect their product lines. I mean, who doesn't think it is more than a little ridiculous how small the differences are between the 13k c300 and the 6k c100? The big difference is the intentionally weakened non-broadcast quality codec of the c100. If nothing else, I really hope the blackmagic camera line puts an end to this kind of business practice by the big camera makers. We have stood for this kind of crap for too long. Time to make a stand with our wallets.
Click to expand...

The problem is that cheap off the shelf retail data SSD's aren't designed for many continuous record to capacity/ erase/ format/ repeat cycles or repeated mechanical insertion/extraction cycles. Most drives won't work at all for HD or higher video recording, and many will have very short lives even if they do work when new. Price out enterprise grade SLC server SSD's and you will see a different cost picture. This is not just for cameras either. I was pricing digital signage servers for a client and asked the supplier to quote SSD's. They strongly recommended sticking to standard hard drives as they are much more reliable for constant video stream throughputs.

There is a reason every major file based video camera manufacturer makes their own proprietary media for their high end video codec products, reliability, reliability, reliability.

Across their entire line Black Magic's reputation is for producing cheap high performance products with mediocre reliability and quality.
 
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Steve Kahn said:
Question: Why are broadcast people posting here and why do they even care about this camera? This is clearly a cinema camera not intended for videographers. Your points are ridiculous to me. It's as if this were a film camera and you were saying: 'well, it's too difficult to shoot the news, or a wedding, or a web video on film'.

Right. So move on. This is not a broadcast camera.
Click to expand...
I guess that explains the EF mount and the $3000 price tag? Maybe the camera that fits in your pocket?
Clearly a "Cinema" camera but the 4k will have issues mounting PL? Come on man. Get real. The EF mount spells exactly who this camera is marketed at!
 
LyleGorch said:
. . .uh, I think only a modicum of fact checking would reveal that the Canon C cameras pretty much rule independent broadcast production at the moment, and that includes the C100. In my wildest fever-ridden nightmare I could not conceive of shooting a long form show for broadcast on a BMCC (or really anything with uncompressed RAW) but good luck with that. I think any savings in the camera department will evaporate in the media-storage array required to handle all that 4K RAW goodness.

Oh man, I get off the grid for 48 hours and return to 33 pages of the camera-preorder-circus-that-will-not-die. Frankly I'm surprised Black Magic could show their faces with another non-camera announcement after last years debacle.
Click to expand...

Umm, I agree with everything you are saying about their popularity because of their ergonomics and all that (I owned a c100), but I'm not sure what that has to do what I'm saying... That Canon is largely differentiating a 6k camera from a 13k camera based on codec with the 13k camera having a broadcast codec and the 6k camera having a prosumer codec. Obviously there are other differences, the evf and the LCD and so forth, but it amazing how similar the hardware is.
 
dustylense said:
For sure. All very valid points. I too am interested in the BMC4k. I will buy if it proves itself well, but only when it hits the shelves this time.
But you stack these cameras particularly agains the Canon C's. Which is fine as we all are stacking camera vs camera these days. Let's say you're a DOC shooter shooting in war torn Afghanistan? Which camera between the BMC4k or the C300 would you choose? Maybe you're a wedding shooter? Again with all the variables of weddings, which camera are you going to choose? What if your work is solely destined for corporate work on the web and is run and gun shooting? Which one gives you the balance?

Again, everything these days is "this camera is better than that camera". At what? It really boils down to what you "mostly" shoot and is required during the shoot.

Good thing the BMC cameras are at the price they are. They are worth far more than what we are paying for them. For that I agree 100% the luster of BMC cameras. But even still, it's not the perfect camera for everything. No camera is. But most of us like to own at least one camera right? The rest we can rent...

In the past 3 years, how many cameras have most of you owned? For me it's been 7. I think I'm with Philip Bloom when he says "Hey camera makers, slow down and just work on making cameras that will last a couple years".
Click to expand...

I agree with you totally. I don't mean to pick on the canon C series particularly. My last camera was a C100 and it felt like butter in my hands. Incredibly ergonomics. If I was shooting all day weddings or events and so forth, it is perfect. For me personally I just want a cinema camera with the best image quality. I am willing to put up with other issues to have the best image quality. I just happen to like the look of the BMCC better than the C series. I understand it is a subjective thing though.
 
bumkicho said:
Leica M has about 12 stops with 200-6400 iso. So, if it is the same sensor Leica M uses, why would it have only 8 or 10 stops and why would it be limited to iso 200 or 400? Am I misunderstanding something here?
Click to expand...

It is not the same sensor of the Leica M. It is a different sensor designed by the same manufacturer. With completely different design goals, and therefore completely different characteristics. If it is the CMV12000, it is a sensor designed for high-speed machine vision, not for a motion picture camera. And it shows (even though, I must say it again, the sensor is pretty impressive in many ways; but not things like ISO or DR).
 
dustylense said:
I guess that explains the EF mount and the $3000 price tag? Maybe the camera that fits in your pocket?
Clearly a "Cinema" camera but the 4k will have issues mounting PL? Come on man. Get real. The EF mount spells exactly who this camera is marketed at!
Click to expand...

As the vast majority of PL lenses are greater than the price of this camera I'd say a EF mount (for which you can buy cinema lenses) or any dSLR mount makes perfect sense.
 
dustylense said:
For sure. All very valid points. I too am interested in the BMC4k. I will buy if it proves itself well, but only when it hits the shelves this time.
But you stack these cameras particularly agains the Canon C's. Which is fine as we all are stacking camera vs camera these days. Let's say you're a DOC shooter shooting in war torn Afghanistan? Which camera between the BMC4k or the C300 would you choose? Maybe you're a wedding shooter? Again with all the variables of weddings, which camera are you going to choose? What if your work is solely destined for corporate work on the web and is run and gun shooting? Which one gives you the balance?

Again, everything these days is "this camera is better than that camera". At what? It really boils down to what you "mostly" shoot and is required during the shoot.

Good thing the BMC cameras are at the price they are. They are worth far more than what we are paying for them. For that I agree 100% the luster of BMC cameras. But even still, it's not the perfect camera for everything. No camera is. But most of us like to own at least one camera right? The rest we can rent...

In the past 3 years, how many cameras have most of you owned? For me it's been 7. I think I'm with Philip Bloom when he says "Hey camera makers, slow down and just work on making cameras that will last a couple years".
Click to expand...

There are good reasons the C300 is so popular right now. Robust reliability under extreme conditions apparently is one reason, better than I had reason to expect. Check out Cowpunk52's experience: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-on-Great-Slave-Lake-in-NWT-Canada&highlight=

High quality images for a low price aren't the only, or even the major consideration for many.
 
dustylense said:
I find it strange that people are pre-ordering the BMC4k without seeing a single frame grab off the camera itself. Not a lick of footage, no frame grab, just blind faith... Am I the only one?
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No, I have to see some footage. It's a different sensor and there's more to the look of camera footage than just specs.

If the production problems are really solved then there shouldn't be that long of a wait to get one when they come out anyway.
 
Steve Kahn said:
Question: Why are broadcast people posting here and why do they even care about this camera? This is clearly a cinema camera not intended for videographers. Your points are ridiculous to me. It's as if this were a film camera and you were saying: 'well, it's too difficult to shoot the news, or a wedding, or a web video on film'.

Right. So move on. This is not a broadcast camera.
Click to expand...

Just like the AF100, FS line, and C line of cameras are not "broadcast" cameras, but they are still used there. I have never shot "cinema" on my AF, doesn't mean I can't use it for my own purposes that make me money. When I left my old station, the promo department was shooting commercials on an AF100. Not exactly "cinema", but entirely broadcast.

It may be clearly designed as a "cinema" camera, but as pointed out by others, it will be used for non-cinema applications. High bitrate or Raw plus shallow depth of field plus cheap price plus EF mount garuntee many will buy it with no intention of ever shooting a proper film. That they aren't proper filmaker's somehow doesn't make their opinions and input any less valid.
 
Razz16mm said:
The problem is that cheap off the shelf retail data SSD's aren't designed for many continuous record to capacity/ erase/ format/ repeat cycles or repeated mechanical insertion/extraction cycles. Most drives won't work at all for HD or higher video recording, and many will have very short lives even if they do work when new. Price out enterprise grade SLC server SSD's and you will see a different cost picture. This is not just for cameras either. I was pricing digital signage servers for a client and asked the supplier to quote SSD's. They strongly recommended sticking to standard hard drives as they are much more reliable for constant video stream throughputs.

There is a reason every major file based video camera manufacturer makes their own proprietary media for their high end video codec products, reliability, reliability, reliability.

Across their entire line Black Magic's reputation is for producing cheap high performance products with mediocre reliability and quality.
Click to expand...


In some ways I like the mass produced stuff better than the boutique stuff because it is actually tested better and manufactured to higher standards with higher end processes. I have heard the expensive stuff like RED has had reliability issues in the past too. If Erik, the guy testing the ssds before they ship out, is having a bad day, you are screwed, lol. If I buy ssds from Amazon, I can afford backups and I can get them returned and exchanged very quickly. I haven't had problems with my ssds yet, but I can't say I've had heavy usage on them yet either so we'll see. Maybe I'll be complaining in a few months, lol.
 
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