Black Friday Specials

[Run&Gun]

An ENG style camera with a full frame sensor and a cinema zoom would be a tad unwieldy and a tad hefty. A half-way solution, to please the DVX User bunch, would have an elongated body for shoulder mounting and the button placement. FX-9 with the back extension or something in that vein.

On the technical front, buttons can be substituted for voice commands. And most manufacturers now have apps for control via smartphones or iPad/laptop type devices, though a separate touch control interface could also work.

And the box shape allows for a greater modular expansion, which is a budget/performance constraint.

I’ve seen voice commands suggested before, but that doesn’t work in the real world. 1) You have the problem of talking while recording audio and 2) If your hand is already on or close to the camera/control you can usually physically make the adjustment in less time than you can think of, articulate and speak the words and then have the device process the command and execute it.

So much of it is reflex. You’re not consciously thinking “I need to do this/adjust that, etc.”. You just know and do/react.

And app controls can be great for certain things, but not for a single op trying to make adjustments while they are actively shooting, especially if hand-held/off-the-shoulder.

Going with what Dan said, and no offense to anyone, but I don’t think that those that kind of brush-off and discount the value of physical buttons and controls on a larger ergonomically designed body have ever spent much or any time actually using them or in the situations where that type of camera is a necessity. I know I’m always beating the “ENG camera horse”, but it’s because I speak from experience and I KNOW how good it is. I own and use other ‘style’ cameras too, so I have the real world experience with some of them and know what the drawbacks and limitations are, as well as the advantages.

 

[DLD]

Like I said - and as it's been posted and reposted and posted again - if you want both the physical buttons and the shoulder operation, you'd want an elongated shape a la an ENG camera. But a full frame cinema camera with a lens and accessories would be heavy. Then, to ease the burden on a human body, you'd have to go the exoskeleton route over and beyond a full body support vest that's made by someone like Tilta. You need the Robocop shoes to be connected to the vest. These exoskeleton suits have been created with the military and medical uses in mind but they have been out for a few years now for the warehouse workers too.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

The Amira is a good combination of image quality with a larger sensor and ENG form factor with reachable buttons and no crazy rigging needed. I can easily balance it with the 17-120.

 

[Guest]

Reminds me of the cluster of controls within reach of thumb and forefinger on a DSLR

Yeah, both are laid out really well, and brilliant


One key difference though, is:







the DSLR grip is designed with the control hand never leaving. DSLR settings are primarily changed by the RIGHT hand, or SUPPORT hand.












The ENG controls layout allows for the hand to leave and return quickly. The is because the controls are changed by the LEFT hand, or the FREE hand.











*

 

[Guest]

The Amira is a good combination of image quality with a larger sensor and ENG form factor with reachable buttons and no crazy rigging needed. I can easily balance it with the 17-120.

Amira has its own layout, differing from the standard ENG layout, but is also well thought out.

Amira does an incredible job of being simple.

It shares more complicate functions and menu items in the EVF etc.

 

[Guest]

GREEN - primary image control and user buttons
BLUE - white balance
RED - power on/off
YELLOW - menu, other

The 2/3” Varicam is still one of the best, and the P2 model i don’t think is as heavy as the tape base one.

Despite the larger body, the Varicam keeps a lof of controls easy to find in a small space, primarily by having a more extreme topography.

The newer Varicam 35 is over simplified, and offloads a lot of duty to the AC panel. Since it is trying to be a cinema camera.

 

[Guest]

Like I said - and as it's been posted and reposted and posted again - if you want both the physical buttons and the shoulder operation, you'd want an elongated shape a la an ENG camera. But a full frame cinema camera with a lens and accessories would be heavy. Then, to ease the burden on a human body, you'd have to go the exoskeleton route over and beyond a full body support vest that's made by someone like Tilta. You need the Robocop shoes to be connected to the vest. These exoskeleton suits have been created with the military and medical uses in mind but they have been out for a few years now for the warehouse workers too.

There is a simple solution and that is having a control box similar to the ENG layout that can be place forward of the center of balance on the rig.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

The Varicam LT in my experience was an absolutely terrible camera as far as button controls and operation. I had a three day documentary shoot with it and I had to keep taking it off my shoulder to change basic things. I absolutely hate that the control module is on the back of the body. The LT also has very few actual buttons on the body. Let's not even get started on the audio controls. The Amira's control module is the viewfinder/LCD combo which is way more ergonomically placed.

I'm curious how the C300 Mark III is on the shoulder when fully built out; it should be an improvement over the Mark II.

 

[Guest]

The Varicam LT in my experience was an absolutely terrible camera as far as button controls and operation. I had a three day documentary shoot with it and I had to keep taking it off my shoulder to change basic things. I absolutely hate that the control module is on the back of the body. The LT also has very few actual buttons on the body. Let's not even get started on the audio controls. The Amira's control module is the viewfinder/LCD combo which is way more ergonomically placed.

Yeah, the LT had a good image and felt alright on the shoulder, but was so far off from the Varicam branding. The build was very wide, like an F35, and the soft mushy buttons on the AC panel took some getting used to. But the real departure from Varicam was the operator controls. Really sad set back. It took the “Vari” out of the name.

I'm curious how the C300 Mark III is on the shoulder when fully built out; it should be an improvement over the Mark II.

Definite improvement over the MK2, but still a flat panel, as if it was designed to look clean and be cheap to manufacture, rather than be good to use.

The scroll wheels on the C300mk3 seem to be the most notable improvements. They are now within reach of a shoulder operator.

And the audio break out box looks like it adds balance and functionailty while keeping the build clean

One thing that I feel Canon got right, is the Audio controls layout. It is on the other side of the camera for the sound op to get to easily, and then the breakout box puts it on the operator side for more ENG style work. And in a pinch, if someone is doing their own sound without the breakout box, the camera body is short enough that reaching around is pretty simple.

But the button layout still looks like they took huge concessions to the manufacturing team, and all the buttons and wheels are soldered to one flat board.

 

[ahalpert]

do you have a file of colored camera control layouts, James, or do you mark them up each time?

 

[ahalpert]

There is a simple solution and that is having a control box similar to the ENG layout that can be place forward of the center of balance on the rig.

I could sink my teeth into this

 

[Guest]

do you have a file of colored camera control layouts, James, or do you mark them up each time?

I did a study a while back.

 

[Guest]

I could sink my teeth into this

Yeah, until they can figure out how to shrink the optics, the camera can now build around the lens. But mentalities are hard to change, and no one is really doing it from the ground up, sort of integrated approach.


Camer bodes are so small now, there is little need to make the old DVX/HVX cameras any more. Just put a black magic pocket at the end of an Angeniuex zoom and rig everything to the lens. then you have something that is not much bigger than a normal camera, but you get a cinema zoom integrated and fullY balanced for shoulder work.

I sold a piece of gear to a guy that was doing that with a GH4 or GH5 a while back. Although, it is still difficult for him to change settings, he was able to easily an comfortably shoulder and old 6x or 10x angeniuex cinema zoom.

 

[Guest]

So much of it is reflex. You’re not consciously thinking “I need to do this/adjust that, etc.”. You just know and do/react... If your hand is already on or close to the camera/control you can usually physically make the adjustment in less time than you can think of, articulate and speak the words and then have the device process the command and execute it.

^ This

And app controls can be great for certain things, but not for a single op trying to make adjustments while they are actively shooting, especially if hand-held/off-the-shoulder.

^This

...I don’t think that those that kind of brush-off and discount the value of physical buttons and controls on a larger ergonomically designed body have ever spent much or any time actually using them or in the situations where that type of camera is a necessity.

^ and This

 

[Run&Gun]

The Varicam LT in my experience was an absolutely terrible camera as far as button controls and operation. I had a three day documentary shoot with it and I had to keep taking it off my shoulder to change basic things. I absolutely hate that the control module is on the back of the body. The LT also has very few actual buttons on the body. Let's not even get started on the audio controls. The Amira's control module is the viewfinder/LCD combo which is way more ergonomically placed.

I'm curious how the C300 Mark III is on the shoulder when fully built out; it should be an improvement over the Mark II.

I own three VariCam's (1x tape and 2x P2's), and I'm on the record (voiced my concerns/complaints in-person to Panasonic reps at the NAB '14 premier of the V35) as hating the V35 and LT body/control layout/scheme. I told the rep I wanted a s35 version of the 2700. He pointed over to the V35 and said that's what this is. I said no, you don't get it(I'd rather shoot with a V35 than an LT, though).

I had the LT for a month for a demo from one of my dealers, because they wanted my feedback on it. It's a PITA to shoot with. And yes, the control panel placement is STUPID. STUUU-PID. I should also never have to do a menu dive to set audio(Although it's not a full menu dive, I hate the audio on my F55, too).

I shot with my 2700 yesterday and it's just so easy. I'm really going to miss it when I can no longer shoot with it(meaning eventual zero demand/acceptance from clients)(but I'm on year nine with the 2700's, now, and I would have never guessed that when buying them. I don't think I got that out of any of my Betacam's).

 

[Guest]

The control layout on the Panasonic cinema cameras took the “Vari” out of the Varicam, and just left the “cam” part.


Not a nimble go anywhere - do anything camera philosophy anymore.


The original Varicam gave a sense of creative freedom with the ability to set any frame rate in steps of 1 frame was pretty cool, and it became a staple for doc because it handled the field so well. Meanwhile the image was fantastic for the time, and allowed the appearance of cinematic expression in the right hands.


The V35/LT just had a sensor in a big box that could swap with another big box. Good image, but lacking all the apeal of the original. The dual gain iso was about the only truly “Vari” about it. But sadly they lost some of the mojo that made Panasonic the hot topic.

 

[IronFilm]

What do you think of the ergonomics of the Sony F5/F55?

 

[Guest]

What do you think of the ergonomics of the Sony F5/F55?

Good-ish.

For small crew film/promo where Cam Op is changing settings between fast setups: great

Larger film, where AC and Op are different functions: not great

For eng/doc: so-so


The issue with the F55, is that much of the controls require visual confirmation. There is a physical ND filter knob and a scroll wheel within easy reach. So you can certainly get through a day. I quite like it on a film set, where I am not hassling with audio and have the luxury between takes/setups to set image settings.

The form factor is not bad, but the blocky nature doesn't particularly conform to the human body, so it more so looks good, but not sure I care for it. With the Raw recorder, it feels nice on the shoulder. Base config, is a little short and I find I have to balance it further back, and my left hand has to reach further to get to the controls, rather than just by my chin. Depends really. I have enjoyed using it. I think they are moderately well designed for the versatile and nebulous target market they were aimed at.

 

[Run&Gun]

What do you think of the ergonomics of the Sony F5/F55?

Builds up better than a C300, but Sony could have/should have done MUCH better. Because, you know... It's Sony. And they've been building professional cameras for decades.

XLR's are in almost the dumbest place possible. The only place that would have been worse was sticking out on the operators side. Audio is one step removed from a menu dive, instead of dedicated, physical controls. ND is stupid(I understand in was probably a physical space limitation). Who the F jumps from 0 to 3 to 6 stops? It's too much of a jump between each. Standard is 0, 2, 4 and 6. I dislike the "dog bone" VF arms in general, not just on the F55. White Balance is a multi-step process(unless you have the ENG build-up kit). Too many adjustments via "soft keys" or menu instead of physical switches. Soft Keys and adjustment screen is next to/almost behind your head, so you have to take the camera off your shoulder or tilt it away to make even simple adjustments, like ISO.

White Balance and Preset and Memory should be physical switches. Black Balance should be a physical Switch. Shutter should be a physical switch. ISO should be a physical toggle up/down switch. Power should be a physical switch. Headphone volume should be a physical knob. All audio controls should be physical switches and knobs. As should TC. Audio connections should not be sticking out of the side of the body at right angles. ND should be at least 0, 2, 4 and 6 stops. I prefer a wheel, but can live with buttons/fixed multi-position rotary switch(like on the Amira) IF the ND moves at least as fast as on the C300. The Amira is painfully slow when you change densities. Multiple clean and (switchable)dirty(monitor) SDI connections. TC IN and OUT on separate BNC connections. Card slot selection button. Four accessible channels of audio and if you really want to get greedy, slot-in wireless ability on two channels and a few well placed assignable/mapable buttons.

 

[Guest]

Builds up better than a C300, but Sony could have/should have done MUCH better. Because, you know... It's Sony. And they've been building professional cameras for decades.

XLR's are in almost the dumbest place possible. The only place that would have been worse was sticking out on the operators side. Audio is one step removed from a menu dive, instead of dedicated, physical controls. ND is stupid(I understand in was probably a physical space limitation). Who the F jumps from 0 to 3 to 6 stops? It's too much of a jump between each. Standard is 0, 2, 4 and 6. I dislike the "dog bone" VF arms in general, not just on the F55. White Balance is a multi-step process(unless you have the ENG build-up kit). Too many adjustments via "soft keys" or menu instead of physical switches. Soft Keys and adjustment screen is next to/almost behind your head, so you have to take the camera off your shoulder or tilt it away to make even simple adjustments, like ISO.

White Balance and Preset and Memory should be physical switches. Black Balance should be a physical Switch. Shutter should be a physical switch. ISO should be a physical toggle up/down switch. Power should be a physical switch. Headphone volume should be a physical knob. All audio controls should be physical switches and knobs. As should TC. Audio connections should not be sticking out of the side of the body at right angles. ND should be at least 0, 2, 4 and 6 stops. I prefer a wheel, but can live with buttons/fixed multi-position rotary switch(like on the Amira) IF the ND moves at least as fast as on the C300. The Amira is painfully slow when you change densities. Multiple clean and (switchable)dirty(monitor) SDI connections. TC IN and OUT on separate BNC connections. Card slot selection button. Four accessible channels of audio and if you really want to get greedy, slot-in wireless ability on two channels and a few well placed assignable/mapable buttons.

I don't know if I already said this, but good camera design has so many facets.

Design for manufacturing
Design for use (with subsets...)
- Design for quality
- Design for durability
- Design for function
Design for symbolism

Symbolism is one we often overlook, and yet it is often the most prevalent one. They make cameras that look like they embody the ideals of the consumer. Boxy and utilitarian was all the rage when the F5/55 came out, and told camera buyers that the F5/55 was a modern and utilitarian tool... they just got so excited about their new fresh design, they forgot a few more traditionally proven ways of doing things. Combine that with manufacturing limitations, or short cuts, whichever, and you get the enigma that is the F55. A good camera that is also a not so great camera? Haha. The blocky design was not particularly adaptable or modular, except for the one option, the R5 and the replacement R7 recorders. So, in the end, the design served little function.

Other camera that fell into symbolic design that served less of a purpose, was the HVX200. That thing was huge, but it had to look like a handy cam for some reason. Not sure what giants were one handing that thing.

The Sony F35 was one of the few that combined the symbolism with the function, and that was mimicking a film camera so that users would accept it, but also so that it might fit into their workflow.

A lot of companies will throw a little splash of Red or some oddly bold looking design element, so that consumers know "this is HD!" or "This is 4K!".

I find myself most often annoyed with the symbolic design choices. In particular if they are retro while omitting what made the original design functional.