big purchase help

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boxbreaker

Member
I'm about to get into "location sound". I want to record audio for short films and documentaries. I've been trolling the forums and been reading Jay Rose's producing great sound for video. I've been building a shopping cart and wanted to hear what anyone thought of it.

MKH50 -1200$
MKH416 -1000$
1 countryman b3 xlr lav -180$ ( I figure I'd rely on one wired lav, and suggest wild takes for the wide shots. I don't want to purchase a wireless system quite yet I'd like to avoid them if I can)
Rode Blimp -300$
mixpre-D -900$ ( This is something I was considering could wait but I will purchase if it adds to my value
tscam dr60-d -195$


I could also rent a mixer and additional lavs for more complex shoots. I want to offer a professional service maybe around 200$ - 250$. Would no TC capabilities be a issue? I'm I forgetting anything, any feedback before I pop would be much appreciated. Thanks
 
Non-sync (no TC) is only an issue if you want to work on projects that require it. In other words, are you targeting mostly indie productions that shoot on DSLR or smaller camcorders like the AC90?

The MixPre-D is a fine, little mixer (I have one, and it sees lots of use), but the two-input limit does restrict the kinds of shoots you can take. Waiting to purchase any kind of mixer is probably a bad idea, because it limits your ability to feed both a camera and recorder if the job calls for it. Three inputs is a minimum for pro work; more than that and you need to be able to record more than two discrete tracks.

Also, avoiding wireless is a mistake. Yeah, wired is always better for quality and reliability, but there are some shots where it just isn't possible to avoid using a radiomic. Further, the DR-60D may be a handy recorder for low/no-budget shoots, but it's not a promising offering for getting pro work. It's also not as bag-friendly as you'll probably want.

If you're still looking at non-sync, and 2 ins and 2 record channels are enough for your target market, there are better matches for the MixPre-D that will sit nicely in a bag with the mixer, like the Fostex FR2-LE. Or, you could move up to the Tascam HD-P2 and get TC. If you've hit your budget with your suggested list, perhaps look at the RØDE NTG-3 instead of the MKH-416 to loosen up some funds.

And no mention of headphones. Have you accounted for those? That'll be at least $100.
 
Lets start from the end of your post first..... $200 - $250 for a 10 hr day including gear... way too little, you can earn that in other jobs without the capital outlay.
Is the area of the market you are aiming at actually have money to spend on crew..... many low level shoots havent enough $$$$ to pay crews, if this is the case do shoots for people with money and are prepared to pay, ie; Broadcast TV or Radio, Commercial productions.

What sort of camera are you using to shoot with, Does it have 'decent' audio record facilities so you don't need the tascam DR680?

Get at least a 3-4+ channel mixer..... a MixPre won't last you long in the 'real' world of shooting (not enough inputs)

Have a look at the Rode NTG3 mic.... similar sound to the 416 at a lower price.

Run a 'softie' rather than a full blimp, lighter, cheaper, and will work fine for 99% of outdoor shoots (yes in extreme weather a blimp IS better)

Try a Samson CO2 hyper mic rather than the Senni MKH50 MUCH cheaper they come in pairs so will also do as a stereo setup.

What sort of headphones are you using?

What sort of boom pole?

Allow $$$ for cables and a 'breakaway' cable to go to a camera.
 
Im thinking of getting the senal smh-1000s. also a cavision 5-section mixed fiber boom pole. My target would be indie and student projects. I'm going to consider the fostex for sure. I will eventually have to invest in a reliable wireless system, I suppose for now I can rely on renting them. thanks for the advice
 
Choices are not "bad" but maybe imbalanced for what you are aiming at. Loose the 60d. It's not going to be a good choice for what you are doing.

I would probably divide it up differently also. Especially since it appears you have no real experience I would spend more on the mixer recorder and less on mics. for the kind of shoots you could get walking in with a 60d you can use a Rode NTG 1 (or 2). It will be more forgiving and sve you some cash better spent elsewhere. A mix pre and a two track recorder is a good combo, but step up a bit from that and SD makes some mixers with recording capability. They will work into the future after you upgrade everything else.

Lose the lav, or go wireless. I have done a handful of no budget/ low budget shoots as a recordist and have yet to use wireless. Now I didn't have any for most of that so I would have had to rent. There is basically no use for a wired lav except for a sit down interview. BYW there are a lot of cases where you will want wireless and I may have used them if I had had them but it's not something you necessarily need. I did have wired lavs available and I have only used them for FX recording.

Cables, you don't mention cables and you will need a bunch. Also adapters, a bag for it all, a boom pole, wind gag for the hyper.

The hyper is another place you could probably get a good quality replacement for a lot less. Oktava is one, though I would not recommend that to an inexperienced user.

Headphones were mentioned. Media for the recorder, and it's really nice to have a backup device for the media. I have this box that I stick the card in, push a button and it clones it to an internal hard drive. I clone all cards before I leave the set.

Figure out what your limits are going to be. I do FX recording and post so my production kit is a bit limited. I can do two tracks run and gun, this is generally more than enough for 99% of narrative and documentary work. That crazy director who wants 15 wireless for $200 a day is not someone you want to work for anyway. I also have done some load O tracks events. In that case though I'm taking multiple feeds from the house system so I need the recording tracks but I don't need a ton of mics etc. For that I use a firewire mixer feeding a mac book pro running Boom Recorder. Great combo.

There is a lot of work between those two systems that I can't get. I don't care much because that is not what I do mostly. I have added to them a number of wireless I picked up at a good price so I can branch out a bit but to do things like corporate gigs and ads you really need a LOT more than I'm going to put together. But that is a LOT of the decently paying market so...

$200 - $250 a day is low, at least in the US. Given your experience it might be OK though.

A union minimum kind of gig in California is $650/ day plus equipment rental. Doc./ low budget is generally more like $650 a day including equipment.

I've done under $200, mostly for friends, and I know that is where a lot of no budget folks are but you have to be careful because you are probably not going to get enough work to live off of so make sure you have a "day job" or some other stream of cash.
 
I was writing while you responded so OK boom pole checked off.

Where are you? That will affect a lot what you can charge.
 
My only advice ( in addition to everything posted previously ), is to consider the Fostex DC-R302 3-Channel Audio Mixer and Stereo Recorder which is quite a good unit for $600. You can sit it under a DSLR or use it in an audio bag, and unlike the Tascam DR-60 recorder the Fostex has proper pots so you can smoothly adjust audio levels while you shoot. You can also use the Fostex recorder while simultaneously feeding the TAPE-OUT -10 dB signal to your camera. Going this route would free up some of your budget for UHF wireless units like the Sennheiser G3 system.
 
Ok, exactly the type of feed back I was looking for. I'm in CA. I was thinking 200 - 250 $ a day to start with and build a solid resume. Than I can start landing bigger gigs off of that work.
 
Noiz2 if I get a better recorder and 3 channel mixer, the gear I chose is worth at least 600$ a day if used by someone who knows what they're doing?
 
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A friend of mine in LA was selling a SD302 and a Tascam HD-P2 a little while back. I don't know if it is still available, but I can find out. I remember they were in really good shape and the price was reasonable.

The 60D is ok for mounting underneath the DSLR, but that's about it. I use if for that and I'm very happy with it, but when it comes to bag work I reach for something else. You should also consider at least 2 wireless systems. Don't forget about IFB and battery power and power distribution, and a boom pole.

Are you planning on doing bag work or on a cart?

Your rate is too low. It might be ok for indie shorts with no budget, but those people rarely know what they are doing and only mistakes will get made. That might be fine if you are with friends, but I wouldn't do that kind of stuff with people I don't know well. Even as a newbie you should command more money. Your time is valuable, so don't sell yourself short.

You should maybe talk with a dealer that sells this kind of stuff. They build packages like this all the time. I know I used to when I sold gear. I think DVeStore in Washington state gives discounts to people on this DVX user forum, so you could save some cash that way, and they are really good people there. If you are in the LA area and want to actually get your hands on gear you can visit Trew Audio, Location Sound Corporation, or Audio Department.
 
I was planning on getting a gator bag. that's interesting I'm going to look up those stores. Im not sure what you mean by IFB and power distribution.
 
Ozgzmo, Instead of MKH50 or the c02, I do already have a pair of rode NT5's. would those be good to start with for indoor shots instead?
 
NT5 mics might be a bit broad in the spread.... They would work on VERY tight shots but Hypercardoid mics are better.
 
boxbreaker said:
I'm about to get into "location sound". I want to record audio for short films and documentaries. I've been trolling the forums and been reading Jay Rose's producing great sound for video. I've been building a shopping cart and wanted to hear what anyone thought of it.

MKH50 -1200$
MKH416 -1000$
1 countryman b3 xlr lav -180$ ( I figure I'd rely on one wired lav, and suggest wild takes for the wide shots. I don't want to purchase a wireless system quite yet I'd like to avoid them if I can)
Rode Blimp -300$
mixpre-D -900$ ( This is something I was considering could wait but I will purchase if it adds to my value
tscam dr60-d -195$


I could also rent a mixer and additional lavs for more complex shoots. I want to offer a professional service maybe around 200$ - 250$. Would no TC capabilities be a issue? I'm I forgetting anything, any feedback before I pop would be much appreciated. Thanks
Click to expand...

Mics look good, though I would, personally, also consider the new Sennheiser MKH 8060 instead of the 416.

I wouldn't get the Røde blimp - the handle section is a bit on the heavy side. If you can't afford a full Rycote windshield kit, get the new Rycote Super Shield that replaces the S-series. Similar price but much more effective. :thumbsup:

It was only launched at BVE a few months ago, so many people will not have heard about it yet.

Tie mic seems fine, DPA and Sanken are also woth looking at.

Personally, I would decide what radiomic. system you are likely to decide on in the future and get the correct connector on the tie mic. for that system - and then get the phantom adaptor to XLR. This way the same mic. will be able to be used both wired and wireless.

I hope this helps,

All the best,,

John
 
Stay away from mixers / recorders that fit to the bottom of a camera, the reason why is how are you going to ride levels during a shoot?
If you are a single person doing sound and pictures it might be fine but for serious work (ie; money earning) it's useless.
Student type films are often SO structurally different than commercial reality. Learn out how the Pro's do it if thats where you want to end up in your career.
With the Fostex unit how are you going to feed 2 cameras in an interview shoot or send audio to a news link van 100+m away with a mixer like that?

At the moment there are many bargains around like SD 302, SD 442 or even SD 552, SQN etc, when the SD664 was released onto the market a lot of Pro's are offloading perfectly good gear at very cheap prices.

Rycote are great windshields, but costly..... the current Rycote hand grips might be light but they break easily (bring back the older type....at least they survive Outside Broadcast use)
 
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boxbreaker said:
Noiz2 if I get a better recorder and 3 channel mixer, the gear I chose is worth at least 600$ a day if used by someone who knows what they're doing?
Click to expand...
No.

well maybe, but probably not. If someone is hiring you on equipment and not experience they don't know what they are doing.
But you are very unlikely to get or stay on a full rate gig with a 60d as your recorder.

The folks getting $650 a day + equipment are probably bringing $50,000 and up in equipment to the table.

FX recording you can carry a lot less but there are not that many FX recording ggs so...

"CA" is a very big state. If you are in LA there is a lot of work but also a LOT of competition. If you are in LA I would start by working my butt off to get on some experienced mixers crew.

Doing student films and low budget shorts is not really much of a resume builder for better gigs. The biggest reason is that those shoots are often VERY badly run and quality can be extremely low. And nobody will have seen those films so they won't know if it was total junk or something special.

The two things that they can do though is that If you really push to do professional work you can learn from the experience and at least you will not feel alien on a film set. And second if you pick well and get really lucky you might find a director with a future. Don't hold your breath on that but it does happen from time to time and if they liked working with you, you get a couple of perks. One is they will probably hire you again (it could take years for them to get to a decent budget so that may be a mixed blessing). Another is that if they have a reputation for quality work then the low budget epics you work on with them will have some cred even if nobody saw them.

Back to CA. If your in the Bay Area it's more docs and really low budget stuff, but thee is a fair amount of that. Out side of those two areas? There will always be some local ad shoots and there is always someone working on a no budget film, but if they are planning a move to a more film centric location the odds of "moving up the food chain" are not great.

I'm in a weird backwater of the film biz in Detroit but I was in the Bay Area for a LONG time and I was there when it was a hot destination for sound post. I also do sound post so I can work on projects from all over and not have to be there. For production you need to be where they are shooting films.
I have film here now from LA, NYC, SF, and a local film.
 
I would also boss a basic first aid kit in. Your on low budget they are probably not carrying any medical folks on the set. Also always pack some protein bars or something to eat with your stuff. Life gets really unpleasant when it hits the fan AND your starving. I also usually try to have some aspirin and antacids in a bag. Multiple long days can give you splitting headaches and stress can do a number on your digestion, not to mention whatever the no-budget craft services defines as a meal.
 
Just a few thoughts to further muddle the scrum:

No one mentioned the DR680 for a recorder which is less wonderful than a SD model, but it sounds decent and has multiple tracks. It is also bag friendly and the price has come down in the last year.

Step up to a 302 for a mixer. Just an opinion.

Whatever you get for a mixer and recorder, you will want an auxiliary power system in your bag. The gold standard for this is the BDS system. I have cheaper out thus far using a Tekkeon with some custom cables. Works for me.

Whatever bag you buy, it probably won't have a good harness, so plan on upgrading to a Versa, or something similar. It will reduce your need for pain killers at the end of the day.

Grant

Edit: if you buy Rode lavs, you can get the micon connectors allowing the use with both xlr and wireless.

IMHO, you will want - need a couple channels of wireless.....thus the 302 for a mixer. Let's you mix a couple of wireless tracks and also let's you have a phantom mic somewhere as well.
 
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"The folks getting $650 a day + equipment are probably bringing $50,000 and up in equipment to the table"
+11
One can buy all the latest and greatest expensive gear. But without experience and skills, it doesn't really matter.
$200-300 a day is an insult, McDonald's pays better and it's easier.
 
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