BH lists Ursa Mini 4.6k PL mount expected availability of March 2016

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poormanwally

Member
Not to be mean spirited, but BMD needs to set a date for product launch, and then always add a year before announcing it. They KNOW they're going to be late, which is fine, but why string along people who will pre-order and wait... and wait... and wait...? Be late internally, be on time publicly. Now they've got a camera that hasn't even been released, but it's already a year old. The few release setbacks makes me think it's something serious. I don't envy camera makers, it's a demanding user base, and the tech cycle turns so fast, and it's only getting more competitive... but promising something you can't deliver is something to reflect on for any business. I hope March does the trick, good luck BMD, I genuinely wish you success.
 
One would have to do a BMD user - actual and potential -poll to get reasonably accurate results but my hunch is that a majority of potential 4.0/4.6 buyers are no longer impressed by the BMD announcements. It's become one of those "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, ch-ch-ch-ch-chain of fools". In other words, when you keep "Baghdad-bobbing" your client base, you lose a lot of credibility.

PS. I've mentioned long ago that the major electronics/photo/video manufacturers will eventually begin to drive the independents out of the industry. Let's take these various URSA models. They offer only a marginal performance advantage over a well established camera like FS7 without half of the Sony reputation, support base, etc. Furthermore, Sony is flooding the market with various 4K models in all price ranges, leaving no discernible reasons - aside of Raw - for a shooter to choose BMD. And, with all the Log upgrades/updates, most people don't need Raw anymore anyway. It was different three years ago when the 2.5K Cinema Camera made a lot of noise because it was such a bargain compared to the available Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic and JVC options. That "bang for the buck" notion is, however, expiring. As is BMD venture into the camera biz.
 
Well they could and should drop the price down - and include the optical EVF for the $5000 US price. It's a tough market out there, and they need to be very competitive price wise to stay in the game so late. I believe this is the most delayed BM camera release so far, right?
 
If the pre-orders are small, it tells them it is not worth putting on the market. There is nothing worse for a vendor than to produce something and then have to support a small number of takers.
 
Well, let's be fair. To many users the most important thing is IQ - duh! And BMC has consistently delivered. Footage coming out of the pocket cam for example, was unmatched by the major manufacturers (except at the super high price level like Alexa). So if the footage coming out of the Ursa is all that, it won't matter that there's an FS7 around - not everyone likes what comes out of the FS7. To each his own. One cannot make a final judgment without side by side comparisons, so I think it's a little premature to write the obituary for BMC and their business model - there are those fanatics out there to whom IQ comes before all else, especially at a price point that usually cannot be matched by major manufacturers.
 
DLD said:
I've mentioned long ago that the major electronics/photo/video manufacturers will eventually begin to drive the independents out of the industry. Let's take these various URSA models. They offer only a marginal performance advantage over a well established camera like FS7 without half of the Sony reputation, support base, etc. Furthermore, Sony is flooding the market with various 4K models in all price ranges, leaving no discernible reasons - aside of Raw - for a shooter to choose BMD. And, with all the Log upgrades/updates, most people don't need Raw anymore anyway. It was different three years ago when the 2.5K Cinema Camera made a lot of noise because it was such a bargain compared to the available Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic and JVC options. That "bang for the buck" notion is, however, expiring. As is BMD venture into the camera biz.
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"They offer only a marginal performance advantage"?? well, besides their push for democratizing the medium throw their affordable price policy, I see BMD as a company trying to offer a DIFFERENT LOOK, a DIFFERENT COLOR SCIENCE. In my opinion, Sony, Panasonic, JVC...the corporations that have ruled the camera industry for so many years, have been incapable of getting rid of the VIDEO LOOK, the PLASTIC LOOK. And the reason is that they themselves invented it, promoted it, and consequently seem to like it a lot. I have the perception that those Japanese companies will never be able to create cameras that treat light in a 'non-plastic look' way because they are part of the culture of broadcasting, the culture of TV, they have been key players in creating that culture, that aesthetics. They have shown over and over again, that no matter how much money and advice they put on their cameras they all come with this VIDEO/PLASTIC LOOK by default. Of course you can change the look and get something more interesting from it, but it is not the same as when the engineers and designers have a particular, more interesting look in mind from the very beginning of the process. Sure those Japanese engineers are good people and good engineers, but they are part of a different culture that has a different taste because they created the electronic video look in the first place and they have been doing that for too long. It was only when the Germans came into the scene with ARRI Alexa some years ago (a culture with a strong tradition in photography in cinema, cinema camera manufaturers, film scanners, etc) that we have the possibility of the development of a different look, a different aesthetics, a different way of treating light electronically. I see BMD as offering also an alternative look, and differently than ARRI, at affordable prices, so I feel thankful to them and expect them to succeed.
 
DLD said:
the major electronics/photo/video manufacturers will eventually begin to drive the independents out
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If an independent tries to beat a major at its own game, yes, the indie will lose. Try to match a major with every conceivable menu and codec option, and it will take you three years, and your price will likely be higher, because the major can buy in bulk.

If, however, you be all Ikonoskop or Digital Bolex in your camera design, then you can come out with a camera at a lower price, faster. If you're good at design, then your camera will also delight with its usability and flexibility. Big companies have advantages, but their Achilles heels are their slow-moving bureaucracy and mediocre designs by committee. You don't go up against the Galactic Empire by building your own AT-AT. No, you fire the harpoon gun from your little T-47 and fly circles around it.

Paul F said:
If the pre-orders are small, it tells them it is not worth putting on the market.
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If they still don't know what will make a successful camera, then they should hire me.

OldCorpse said:
Well, let's be fair. To many users the most important thing is IQ - duh!
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For me, image quality has got good enough. The competition now is in building the most agile camera: one that starts up fast, has simple thin menus (if any), is small, light, etc.
 
Original BMCC and pocket owner here. I still have my preorder for the 4.6k Mini but unless something drastic changes, there's almost no chance I'll actually keep it. Red is starting to look better and better to me these days now that they have models that I can afford as an individual (for personal projects). The most egregious thing about the delay of the mini isn't the delay itself, it's the total lack of communication from the company.

As others have pointed out, they're no longer the only option in the price ranges they're in. I think everyone except Canon has something viable @ $7k and under. And then there's just the general quality of cameras in general these days. I remember wrestling with an HV20 back in the day. And it was pretty much those, jumping up to a dvx/hvx or spending big bucks on something only studio films could afford. Now I have both a BMCC and a C100 and if I can't make stunning images with either of those, I really should look into anothe line of work.

Tl;dr: we don't need any one camera company at this point and bmd is hurting their rep with how they handle announcing products, having delays and not communicating with their customers.
 
OldCorpse said:
.... So if the footage coming out of the Ursa is all that, it won't matter that there's an FS7 around - not everyone likes what comes out of the FS7...
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But BMD needs lots and lots of people who dislike FS7 ... and 1D C (and its replacement) ... and A7RII .. and D5 ... and everything else. And, IMO, my points stands. When the BMCC came out, it had no competition in the same price range. Now, URSA Mini has half a dozen similar cameras in a similar price range with a similar performance. I personally like the Leica and Canon looks but shoot FS7 with its latest "cinematic" profile and it's more than good enough for most people. And, before the 4.6 Mni shipment commences, there'll be another half a dozen models out. And then BMD becomes just another shrimp on a barbie.

lexicon said:
"They offer only a marginal performance advantage"?? well, besides their push for democratizing the medium throw their affordable price policy, I see BMD as a company trying to offer a DIFFERENT LOOK, a DIFFERENT COLOR SCIENCE. In my opinion, Sony, Panasonic, JVC...the corporations that have ruled the camera industry for so many years, have been incapable of getting rid of the VIDEO LOOK, the PLASTIC LOOK ... I see BMD as offering also an alternative look, and differently than ARRI, at affordable prices, so I feel thankful to them and expect them to succeed.
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There's room for a lot of people, including those still shooting film. But, to do this as a business, you need a large client base. And that large client base is sprinting toward the Big Boys.

combatentropy said:
If an independent tries to beat a major at its own game, yes, the indie will lose. Try to match a major with every conceivable menu and codec option, and it will take you three years, and your price will likely be higher, because the major can buy in bulk.

If, however, you be all Ikonoskop or Digital Bolex in your camera design, then you can come out with a camera at a lower price, faster. If you're good at design, then your camera will also delight with its usability and flexibility. Big companies have advantages, but their Achilles heels are their slow-moving bureaucracy and mediocre designs by committee. You don't go up against the Galactic Empire by building your own AT-AT. No, you fire the harpoon gun from your little T-47 and fly circles around it...
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Which means that BMD should have made a Red Weapon quality/spec camera for an URSA price. But they're making an FS-7 quality camera for an FS-7 price. I'll bring up the same point again. They did do it "their way" with BMCC and BMPCC and those were huge hits but they're no longer beating the market on specs as they did two-three years ago. All they got is the "BMD look". Now, I happen to like the look myself but they have to convince a lot of buyers that others ain't got the "look". And these are the same buyers who have their own Red, Canon, Sony products and they like them just fine.

If they still don't know what will make a successful camera, then they should hire me.
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Do you need an agent? I take a third. (What's 33% of nothing? Whatever it is, I am taking it)
 
Those who wait in the sidelines always get their due
Bmd usually does something like lowering price on models. We'll just have to wait for one of those again hehehe
 
B&H has had 15+ different availability dates since July 31st, 2015. It was updated every 1-2 weeks.

Sometime in November, it was changed to "New Item - Coming Soon", and now appears that estimates are beginning again.
 
In less than 4 months we will see new cameras launch at the NAB I am sure Panasonic, and Canon will have something to expand 4k technology. I am concerned about buying cameras from Blackmagic just for the fact they are over six months off from their launch date which makes me wonder what kind of bugs are they encountering and trying to resolve. I am one who will wait for reviews and samples before buying a camera that will cost me few thousand $$$$.
 
Especially with Blackmagic I think it's better to wait for delivery. Yes they encounter issues and if you've followed the Ursa Mini, the did remove a few features such as the GPS feature. Sometimes the issues seem to be parts availability and Quality Control. Sometimes it seems to be firmware implementation.

Ursa Mini vs Sony FS-7. You may want to read this comparison to understand why some might want the Mini.
http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/?p=1410

Sure there's much more competition but it would be wrong to assume the Blackmagic isn't competitive. Cameras aren't one size fits all. In fact as prices drop one might buy multiple cameras for what used to be the price of one. Otherwise.... Rent.
 
On paper Blackmagic looks good, the question will it perform, here is a review that was posted on BNH's site for the new 4k URSA Mini

"I was so excited to receive this camera after 5 months wait. The build quality is great! Soon, I noticed the horizontal noise in the video, both in raw or prores.The horizontal noise I saw is not the white noise you normally see in a low light situation. They are lines, and "no way" to get rid in the post. (De-noise will also degrade the quality of the video.) A camera reboot will make the horizontal noise goes away, however, it comes back again randomly when you power on next time. I contacted BMD, and sent them original DNG files as requested. They asked me to send the camera back, and send me a new one. The whole RMA process is fast. after 5 days, I got a new URSA Mini 4K. Same problem as the first one. I contacted the BMD again. They told me that this issue is known, and asked me to wait for the firmware update."

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...inecamursam40k_ef_ursa_4k_digital_cinema.html
 
Just as the black spot issue, it seems like it would be best to not even consider the Ursa Minis until after summer when a lot of the kinks can be ironed out. BM is not only known for late delivery but unfinished delivery as well. This is where the upstart camera companies often fall down compared to the big boys. I think the Ursa image is about my favorite in the under $10-$15,000 price, so I will gravitate back to it but I do not want to be part of a new camera experiment. I am rooting for them!
 
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