Better LUT for good skin tones - for Odyssey 7Q+ & FS700 ?

Nick_Shaw said:
Rec.709 (800%) in the Odyssey is, like the same profile in the camera, simply the camera's native colour space with a 1D LUT (curve) applied. There is no colour matrix, or other attempt to create "accurate" colours.

I can't speak for what options Convergent Design may offer in future, but having worked with them on analysing the camera processing of the FS700 and FS7 to help create the options that are currently available in the Odyssey, I can tell you that replicating what the camera does is certainly not trivial. And the various picture profiles (and I suspect also "no profile") still have a fair amount of processing going on, much of which is Sony "secret sauce", and not necessarily easy, or maybe even possible, to replicate from the Raw output of the camera.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nick. Yes, I realised CD were not altering the look or colours of the Rec709 800% or Slog2 profiles on the Odyssey, as they look identical to the simultaneously recorded footage on the SD card. And I'm sure none of these things are easy or straightforward to implement, but if it is possible then that would be great, as it seems a shame to be limited to just the 2 profiles for recording on the Odyssey. I'm just throwing the question out there to see what's possible.
 
As an alternative to a similar end, I would request the ability to burn in LUTs on the Odyssey. I expect that this would be easier to implement than recreating Sony's profiles (although I do miss Cine 4). Then CD or any user could create LUTs to emulate Sony's gamma curves. We could also then offer pre-graded footage to clients, which would be a godsend in my market.
 
Our goal is to replicate certain base standards. From there just about any look can be created. That's why we have the two we offer now, and no, we do not simply pass anything through, but instead have to build it from the RAW data. At this time there are no plans to offer other profiles.

Baking in LUTs may be possible, and it is something we are looking at for the future.
 
OK, thanks for letting us know Mitch. I'll drop that line of enquiry! I appreciate yours and Nick's contribution to this conversation.
 
Hey all, apologies for falling off the radar. I am away on holiday and will get back to this project again in early January. And to be honest (partly due to these types of color issues), I am now switching over to a RED Scarlet-W setup and have been preoccupied with accessory decisions for my new camera package. In the meantime I do think that the LUTs already available in this thread are totally usable and can be considered close to final. Any tweaks will be minor. Happy Holidays everyone.
 
jonbetzfilms said:
Hey all, apologies for falling off the radar. I am away on holiday and will get back to this project again in early January. And to be honest (partly due to these types of color issues), I am now switching over to a RED Scarlet-W setup and have been preoccupied with accessory decisions for my new camera package. In the meantime I do think that the LUTs already available in this thread are totally usable and can be considered close to final. Any tweaks will be minor. Happy Holidays everyone.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update Jon. Look forward to your final colour tweaks in the new year. All the best!
 
jonbetzfilms said:
Hey all, apologies for falling off the radar. I am away on holiday and will get back to this project again in early January. And to be honest (partly due to these types of color issues), I am now switching over to a RED Scarlet-W setup and have been preoccupied with accessory decisions for my new camera package. In the meantime I do think that the LUTs already available in this thread are totally usable and can be considered close to final. Any tweaks will be minor. Happy Holidays everyone.
Click to expand...

Hey Jon, Love your "Betz_SL2-LC709A-1" LUT for the most part. I can't seem to figure out this weird red gradient issue I'm getting on export with your LUT applied.

They can be seen in the attached screen shot. Weird part is they don't appear in Premiere, and only once exported as a h264. Any ideas? Something to do with how the red/magenta is dealt with in your LUT? Thanks if you have any ideas!
 

Attachments

  • 7Q-RedIssue-BetzLUT.jpg
    7Q-RedIssue-BetzLUT.jpg
    47.1 KB · Views: 0
2016-07-08 09.20.35 am.jpg
Had the same kind of issue here but with the AJA CION (12bit 444 in 4K) I chalked it up to the strange material in the jackets. They have that shine to them and after I would export for YouTube I got this
 
Ryan,

Interesting! These were a similar looking polyester shirt too. But I'm getting it on red walls, red bikes, etc. (I shoot a lot of red things, as I work on Canadian Olympic projects, and that is the primary colour of everything.)

If I don't use the Betz LUT, the reds go to an orange-ish, even with the CD-provided LUTs, or any I've find online. They seem to be great, apart from just the red tones going orange. Now using the Betz LUT, it's the best option, and I've found as soon as I bump the saturation above 100% in Lumetri, the banding occurs, but keeping it around 95% is usable. So frustrating!!

Anyone else able to share how they've had success colouring 7Q slog-2 for accurate skin tones AND reds in the same shot?
 
Well the Betz LUT was based on my test image along with the Spyder calibration card - Jon tweaked it slightly better in Resolve than I achieved. The fact is the red is being pushed quite heavily within the LUT to correct the FS700's red (within it's version of SLOG-2). So if there's considerable red in your image you then can't push it much more, as it's already had heavy manipulation within the LUT. That's my interpretation of the situation! I have noticed that 422HQ handles it better than 422 or LT.
 
Just out of curiosity....have you tried NOT using SLog2? You can record in Rec709, RAW to ProResHQ on your Odyssey 7Q.

If you're not in a HDR scene, I wouldn't bother with Slog2.
 
Dbatch said:
Anyone else able to share how they've had success colouring 7Q slog-2 for accurate skin tones AND reds in the same shot?
Click to expand...
I'm sure it's been said before in this thread, but it bears repeating. It is not "7Q S-Log2". It is FS700 S-Log2. Internal S-Log2 recordings and 7Q recordings are the same, bar any noise-reduction type processing which the camera does and the 7Q does not.
 
I've spent the better part of the last day and a half trying to make my own colour accurate LUT.
My only goal was to try and match the 7Q screen to what I saw with my own eyes in real life.

Using LUTcalc and the xrite colorchecker passport, I got pretty darn close I think.
Cyan was the trickiest, but red's look like reds and blue's don't look like turquoise anymore which was my main goal.

Here's the untouched Prores Slog2 for comparison
(overexposed by 2 stops approximately)
No_LUT.jpg


Here's the Convergent Design LUT:
SONY_EE_SL2_L709A-2
CD_LUT_2.jpg


And below is the LUT I've developed:
Ky_Fs700_SL2_Rec709_v1.57_-2
My_LUT_2.jpg

And to put it into perspective here's a photo taken with a Sony A7rii.
This is a useful comparison as picture profiles were disabled (Just standard JPG)
It represents what I saw with my eyes fairly closely.
A7rii_Photo3.jpg


Let me know if you find it useful or not or if you have any suggestions.
I'm just a dabbler with LUTS, not an expert!

The zip contains a regular exposure, a -1 and a -2 for those of you like me who like to expose to the right.
I've also converted them for use on the 7Q via the CD LUT converter utility as well.

Download here
 
Awesome, thank you Kyron! Will download and try your LUTs in comparison to mine and the BETZ ones. Looks promising though, might well be the best yet! I'm on a shoot tomorrow for 2 days, will try it then.
 
Kyron said:
I've spent the better part of the last day and a half trying to make my own colour accurate LUT.
My only goal was to try and match the 7Q screen to what I saw with my own eyes in real life.

Using LUTcalc and the xrite colorchecker passport, I got pretty darn close I think.
Cyan was the trickiest, but red's look like reds and blue's don't look like turquoise anymore which was my main goal.
Click to expand...
Your LUT does indeed seem to give a good match to the look of the A7RII. I would advise some caution though that as the A7RII image has a fairly high contrast saturated look, and in matching that your LUT is causing clipping in some channels in some parts of the image. If your intended final look is exactly that of the LUT then there is no problem with that. However my personal opinion is that LUTs are better erring on the side of lower contrast and saturation (like the Low Contrast 709 of the Sony LUT). The reason for this is twofold. Firstly a lower contrast LUT is hiding less when you are shooting, so you are more likely to notice issues. Secondly, and more importantly in my opinion, is that when using the LUT as a start point for your grade, you have more flexibility if your LUT is less destructive to the image.

But at the end of the day, whatever works for you to achieve your desired look is the right approach for you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top