Better late than never...some help please?

[JustinBrown]

Hi all!

Just joined a little while ago because I am getting in gear to make some movies. Great forum so far. That said, I have been out of the loop when it comes to this stuff for slightly less than 10 years and I can't believe what I am seeing. I didn't even know people were shooting films with DSLR cameras and what I have seen is amazing so far.

Now I want one. The problem is that I have no idea where to begin. If anyone feels like cluing me in a little I would be very appreciative.

For starters:
What cameras should I be looking into? What kind of gear am I going to need with it? Do I really need an external audio recorder? What kind of processing power do I need to edit my footage?

I am not looking to get in too deep just yet, but I would like to put together a small kit to play around and learn on....but something I can expand upon later.

Thanks!

 

[El Director]

What kind of cameras?
Depends on your budget. I could only afford a T2i so that's what I went with.

Gear?
Again, what can you afford? With a little MacGyver-ing, I turned my tripod into a shoulder mount. If you're just getting into it, don't worry about lenses yet. Just get a kit and see how you like it, then upgrade if you're happy.

Separate Audio?
Only if you don't want to do ADR for the entire film. Again, I'm cheap, so I do ADR.

 

[JustinBrown]

What kind of cameras?
Depends on your budget. I could only afford a T2i so that's what I went with.

Gear?
Again, what can you afford? With a little MacGyver-ing, I turned my tripod into a shoulder mount. If you're just getting into it, don't worry about lenses yet. Just get a kit and see how you like it, then upgrade if you're happy.

Separate Audio?
Only if you don't want to do ADR for the entire film. Again, I'm cheap, so I do ADR.

My camera budget is about 2k right now. If I can get something for less than that and score a tripod or something that would be great. ADR isn't out of the question of course, but I would like to be able to record quality audio in controlled settings when possible. Also, the camera should be able to do 24 frames.

Then there is the editing, and I am not sure if my pc is up to editing huge hd files. Can I get decent quality in a standard definition mode? Should I look into upping the ram? I have a Vaio f series laptop with a quad core 1.86ghz, a gig of video memory, and 4 gigs or ram.

Thanks again!

 

[David G. Smith]

That $2grand "Camera budget", is that for camera and lenses, and accessories or just for a camera body?

The best video DSLR choices, IMHO, for the least amount of money, right now, are the Canon 550D/T2i or a Panasonic GH1, with the "GH13" firmware hack. I have a Canon T2i, and I believe that it is the best image quality to price camera, out of the box, that I have ever seen (after 20 years). The GH1, with the "GH13" firmware hack is producing some beautiful images (as posted all over the web), but that route does have some risks, as any firmware hacked product would have. You can check out information about the GH1 on that specific forum here at DVXUSER.

As for the T2i, I bought mine, for $899.00 from Bestbuy.com, with the 18-55mm kit lens and bought SD cards and batteries from B&H, and was out and about shooting for just at $1100.00. Since then I have been buying lenses, mostly used vintage lenses and I am in for almost right at $2000.00. I had a shoulder mount system that I used for standard video that works great for the T2i, and of course I have a tripod, and other video gear that I had bought previously. After it is all said and done, I really recommend the Canon T2i to anyone who wants to get started using a video DSLR. I bought one just because it was so inexpensive, and felt that I just could not afford not to get one. Since then I have been very impressed with the little camera.

I think that your computer can handle HD video from a video DSLR, but I would suggest some more RAM. Of course, more RAM is always a good thing.

 

[JustinBrown]

That $2grand "Camera budget", is that for camera and lenses, and accessories or just for a camera body?

It's what I have for spending right now. I was thinking of a 7d and tripod for starters, but your comment about the t2i is making me reconsider.

What are the big differences between the two?

I think that your computer can handle HD video from a video DSLR, but I would suggest some more RAM. Of course, more RAM is always a good thing.

Good to know. Upgrading ram is easy enough.

Thanks for the input!

 

[thisisapocalypse]

If what you care about is video, you'd be much better off buying the T2i and getting an external audio recorder + mic than you would spending the extra dough on the 7D, there doesn't seem to be much difference (if any) between those two cameras in terms of video quality. The 7D is better built as a stills camera and has better IQ (for stills), but if video is the deal for you, save the cash.

Personally I like the GH1 (with or without hack for that matter) better than the T2i, the kit lens is better and nowadays it's not much more expensive than a T2i kit. But sound, you really do need a sound recorder, these cameras just can't do it on their own, it's good for a scratch track (to help sync your outboard audio), but that's about it. Plus since you've got a relatively limited budget you can use legacy MF primes on the GH1 more easily than you can on the T2i (more options, especially Canon FDs which can't really be adapted to anything other than a mirrorless cam - maybe they can be adapted to Nikons but we're not talking about Nikons right now).

Cheers! You can put together a very decent kit for $2K, don't see the reason to spend it all on the camera as sound is just as important. A t2i + outboard sound or gh1 + outboard sound will be much better than a 7d on its own.

 

[El Director]

Then there is the editing, and I am not sure if my pc is up to editing huge hd files. Can I get decent quality in a standard definition mode? Should I look into upping the ram? I have a Vaio f series laptop with a quad core 1.86ghz, a gig of video memory, and 4 gigs or ram.

Look into offline/proxy editing. That's what I have to do since I only have 2gigs of RAM and the computer is seven years old. I use Streamclip to create the offlines.

 

[JustinBrown]

You can put together a very decent kit for $2K, don't see the reason to spend it all on the camera as sound is just as important. A t2i + outboard sound or gh1 + outboard sound will be much better than a 7d on its own.

I definitely hear what you are saying. It does make a lot of sense, but the expanded ISO and more rugged build quality of the 7d is also attractive....not sure if it is worth double the cost, but I am still in the decision stage as is, so we'll see.

Also, don't te BeachTek dslr audio adaptors work pretty well, or is it an absolute must to have a independent recorder?

 

[JustinBrown]

Look into offline/proxy editing. That's what I have to do since I only have 2gigs of RAM and the computer is seven years old. I use Streamclip to create the offlines.

What kind of quality do you end up with then? This sounds like it might be the way to go. Especially if I can shoot HD and downscale to a not-to-bad picture quality.

Do you have an examples of footage that you edited with this process?

 

[Revsta]

I don't think the 7D has a huge advantage over the gh13 anymore. the 5D may, as its better light and shallower DOF if you want that, but the Gh13 is a beast of a machine.

 

[thisisapocalypse]

I don't think the 7D has a huge advantage over the gh13 anymore. the 5D may, as its better light and shallower DOF if you want that, but the Gh13 is a beast of a machine.

I'd definitely go GH1 (13) all the way (and am and boy am I getting my money's worth!) - I'd only go 5D for ultra-wides, but I haven't found it to be the problem I thought it would be - the sensor size is very close to Super35 and I don't think it's super common to be going wider than 14-18mm shooting on a Super35 rig and those guys seem to manage...I know wider lenses exist for Super35 but even those are pretty exotic...would sure love to try one of those Zeiss Ultra/Super something 8 or 12mm t/1.2 primes - that'd be amazing.

If it's me, I say GH1 first unless you need the ultra-wide capability of the 5D (or low light sensitivity) - it depends on what you're shooting - if you're shooting narrative style, you need to be lighting so the advantages of the 5D's better high ISOs shouldn't be too much of a factor so long as you have reasonably fast glass (f/2.8 or faster).

GH1 + Canon FDs = best deal in modern filmmaking ever.

 

[El Director]

Here's a commercial I did with the offline workflow. You only downscale for editing. Then, before you render, you bring an HD version online by replacing your low rez footage with the HD footage. For instance, I cut the piece after converting the footage to an .avi file with 240 lines of resolution. 1/5 of what the T2i records! I then saved an EDL (using Vegas) and imported into AE. From there I could replace the footage with the onlines and do my grading/final render from there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zSvwsud7B4

 

[David G. Smith]

GH1 + Canon FDs = best deal in modern filmmaking ever.

Well, I won't dis the GH1, it is a fine camera, and with the GH13 hack, folks are making some great images, that is for sure. I am not sold on Canon FD lenses though. The flange focal distance of the FD lenses is shorter than a lot of other camera lens systems. This means to adapt FD lenses to many other mounts you need to use an adaptor with another optical element, otherwise the ability to focus to infinity is lost. Now the micro four thirds systems mounts also have a shot flange focal distance and it it possible to use FD mount lenses with relatively inexpensive adaptors. I am personally more comfortable investing in vintage Nikon F mount lenses, as I feel that they will be adaptable to more possible lens mounts options in the future than the Canon FD mount might be.

While I think that the current crop of video DSLRs, especially the T2i, GH1, 7D, 5DMKII, ect, are great cameras, I also think that they are interim solutions and that we are going to see some amazing advances in cameras in the next year or so. I want to try and keep my camera specific investments to a minimum, and try to spend money now on gear that will work for other cameras, as they become available. Thus my choice of vintage Nikon F mount lenses for my EOS camera, the T2i.

 

[thisisapocalypse]

I wouldn't use Canon FDs on anything but a mirrorless camera, but on the GH1 they do great - granted, you need to get the good Canon FD lenses, not just the cheapest ones available - but yes, if you plan on wanting to use whatever lenses you buy for a long time, and assuming that mirrorless style cameras don't stick around, then Nikons are a better way to go - but I have a hard time believing that mirrorless cams are going to go the way of the dodo. I say they're the best deal right now because only mirrorless cams can use them without optically corrected adapters (unless you're shooting film on an old Canon FD mount slr), so the prices on FDs are still quite low, definitely less than equivalent Nikons...I also never liked Nikon lenses that much so that might be part of my problem, I've always liked Canon more.

But I'll revise - Rollei SL35/QBM mount Zeiss lenses are probably the best overall deal considering what you get for the money, very few have caught on to using these lenses on DSLRSs, but talk about bang for the buck, they're cheaper than Contax mount lenses and often they are West-German made as opposed to Japanese made.

 

[JustinBrown]

While I think that the current crop of video DSLRs, especially the T2i, GH1, 7D, 5DMKII, ect, are great cameras, I also think that they are interim solutions and that we are going to see some amazing advances in cameras in the next year or so. I want to try and keep my camera specific investments to a minimum, and try to spend money now on gear that will work for other cameras, as they become available. Thus my choice of vintage Nikon F mount lenses for my EOS camera, the T2i.

Yeah, that is a worry of mine as well. Sony has already brought out a dslr handycam...I imagine others will be hot on their heels with something a little more involved.

In the meantime though, I don't feel much like waiting. I could spend forever waiting for a really special camera to come a long, and then never make anything.

 

[JustinBrown]

Here's a commercial I did with the offline workflow. You only downscale for editing. Then, before you render, you bring an HD version online by replacing your low rez footage with the HD footage. For instance, I cut the piece after converting the footage to an .avi file with 240 lines of resolution. 1/5 of what the T2i records! I then saved an EDL (using Vegas) and imported into AE. From there I could replace the footage with the onlines and do my grading/final render from there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zSvwsud7B4

Looks pretty good. Couldn't I just down scale to 480p and edit that as a final product though? I plan on using dvds so it will have to be scaled down anyway. I just don't want the image quality to get too jaggy and generally crappy looking.

 

[David G. Smith]

Yeah, that is a worry of mine as well. Sony has already brought out a dslr handycam...I imagine others will be hot on their heels with something a little more involved.

In the meantime though, I don't feel much like waiting. I could spend forever waiting for a really special camera to come a long, and then never make anything.

Absolutly. I don't think you can go wrong with getting a T2i, or a GH1, or even a 7D. They are all great cameras. I went with a T2i and am very happy with the decision. What every you decide on, get it, and make some great images.

 

[JustinBrown]

Absolutly. I don't think you can go wrong with getting a T2i, or a GH1, or even a 7D. They are all great cameras. I went with a T2i and am very happy with the decision. What every you decide on, get it, and make some great images.

What can you tell me about the T2i and how it compares to the 7d? Looking at the spec on b&h they appear to be basically the same, minus the build quality.

 

[David G. Smith]

What can you tell me about the T2i and how it compares to the 7d? Looking at the spec on b&h they appear to be basically the same, minus the build quality.

Also, what aspect ratio do the videos and pictures end up as?

Well, all of these cameras shoot in HD with the 16:9 (1.77:1) aspect ratio.


As for the differences between the 7D and the T2i, I have to be honest and just say that I have not used a Canon 7D. Like everybody, I went on-line and did the interwebby search thing, before choosing the T2i.... and of course, economics played a big a part in it.

Here is a Google search for the differences:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=7d+vs.+T2i&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=100&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

 

[El Director]

Looks pretty good. Couldn't I just down scale to 480p and edit that as a final product though? I plan on using dvds so it will have to be scaled down anyway. I just don't want the image quality to get too jaggy and generally crappy looking.

I suppose you could, but I've never tried it. I'm a big fan or working with the best possible footage, even if I'm going SD with it. Especially if you're doing any grading, you'll appreciate the HD onlines. Plus, if you ever decide to go with a blu ray, you already have an HD master.