C500: Best workflow with C500 RAW from Odyssey 7Q and FCP

I

imax

Active member
Hello,
in a few days I'll shoot a promo with Canon C500 with Odyssey 7Q.
I'd like to shoot at 4K 50p in Canon RAW (.RMF)
Which is the best way to work with it and Final cut pro?
I have to edit the clip in FCP7, give the .DPX to the FX studio and then give the best quality to the colorist to make his work with Da Vinci..
I saw that RMF is a quite new format and I find only few experiences in web..

Can you help me to understand?

thank you!
 
Did you download Cinema Raw Development from Canon's website? You can convert the RMF files to DPX and i believe Prores (I'm PC based, no Prores for Windows version unfortunately).
 
DaVinci SW read Canon "raw" as DPX (with baked WB and ISO), convert this uncompressed video for FCP at proxy quality for editing.
At 50p fps you need use Cinema raw development sw from Canon, this video has only half vertical resolution (something like interlaced video - it is 4K at 50i - not at 50p) and you need convert this signal to full vertical resolution. At 25p you can use only DaVinci.
 
Pave1 said:
DaVinci SW read Canon "raw" as DPX (with baked WB and ISO), convert this uncompressed video for FCP at proxy quality for editing.
At 50p fps you need use Cinema raw development sw from Canon, this video has only half vertical resolution (something like interlaced video - it is 4K at 50i - not at 50p) and you need convert this signal to full vertical resolution. At 25p you can use only DaVinci.
Click to expand...

Why not use C500 internal MXF recordings as proxy for offline editing? I think it has timecode embedded so 4K RAW can be conformed in post.
 
Pave1 said:
At 50p fps you need use Cinema raw development sw from Canon, this video has only half vertical resolution (something like interlaced video - it is 4K at 50i - not at 50p) and you need convert this signal to full vertical resolution. At 25p you can use only DaVinci.
Click to expand...

Actually, no - the C500 only does half-raw at 4k frame rates above 60fps. Up to 60p, the camera is able to output the full DCI 4k resolution signal. Further, there is no 50i or interlaced setting at all for the camera's 4k output, I would be careful about spreading confusing information like this.
 
Yes, you need to download the program from the C500 product page on Canon's website. You may need the serial number of the camera you will be using, though, if memory serves correctly.
 
So I think the best way is to convert with Canon software the RAW Canon RAW files to prores 4444 and then make the export for FX and color.. I think 4K prores 4444 is enough to make output at 1080p..right?

I don't understand well what does it mean half raw..?

Maybe I can try to make offline and online but I don't Know if I could have a real benefit over prores 4444 4K ...

For export good quality DPX which software is the best? I tried with Apple Color but change the gamma, shift colors..so I think is quite good Adobe Media Encoder or maybe I can send the project directly to DA VINCI and export DPX and then reimport in Da Vinci? right?
 
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You are right that "half raw" is at 100-120fps, my mistake.

But I think that "half raw" is the same thing as 50i - at first 1/100 you scan only half amount of scanlines and at the second 1/100 the second half - it is exactly the same thing as the interlaced video did at HD.

And it is not raw, it has baked ISO and WB, for me these things are "too much from Canon markets experts", but sorry for my FPS mistakes.

The best quality for color grading from C500 is for me 2K 444 RGB 12bit recording.
 
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do you think is better to record at: 2K 12-BIT DPX* 2048x1080, 12-bit log 4:4:4 RGB video, recorded as Uncompressed .DPX with CD 7Q? In order to make output at 1080P?
But in this way I can shoot only at 25p.. and I think when you resize a 4K image in a HD canvas you get an higher quality and deep information.. i'm wrong?
 
I made some practise test with C500 only at 25p (we had no Q7 recorder, only AJA KiPro Quad), so it is the best to make some short test before shooting. But 4K colors are interpolated from 4x1920x1080 samples (two G and one R and B). If you prefer FPS then could be better to shoot in 4K, but if you prefer colors then it could be better shoot in 2K RGB 444 - some sw has problem with 12bit DPX so 16bit DPX are better option or you can use 10bit. I don't remember if 2K can make 50p, but this info is at specification.

But make the test is a good idea.
 
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at White Paper Cinema EOS C500 - HOW A 4K IMAGE SENSOR ORIGINATES
A SUPERIOR REALTIME 2K OR HD:

Another significant 2K / HD leap over the C300 is the ability to originate the RGB 12-bit set at frame
rates as high as 60 progressive fps (recall that the C300 is constrained to 8-bits and 30 fps). This allows
superb capture of fast motion – as encountered in sports or fast-moving scenes in movies and television
dramas. For special effects – if a video is captured at 60 fps and played back at 24 fps that provides a
2.5 : 1 slow motion.


It looks that the "2K RGB444 12bit" mode of C500 can works at 50p/60p FPS.
 
Pave1 said:
You are right that "half raw" is at 100-120fps, my mistake.

But I think that "half raw" is the same thing as 50i - at first 1/100 you scan only half amount of scanlines and at the second 1/100 the second half - it is exactly the same thing as the interlaced video did at HD.

And it is not raw, it has baked ISO and WB, for me these things are "too much from Canon markets experts", but sorry for my FPS mistakes.

The best quality for color grading from C500 is for me 2K 444 RGB 12bit recording.
Click to expand...

The C500 does not record alternating scanlines during half raw, but instead completely skips half the vertical pixel lines for a 4096x1080 raw progressive signal that is later interpolated to 4096x2160. There is also a function of half-raw that allows it to record the middle 1080 vertical pixel lines for a very wide 4096x1080 aspect ratio with no line skipping. However, the O7Q doesn't currently support this type of recording.

As for raw not being raw if the WB or ISO are baked in, that's may be your opinion, but it is technically not true. Raw sensor data is recorded from the C500 that must be de-bayered later during post-processing, and the WB and ISO information is applied at the sensor level, making it part of the raw sensor data. And there's a good reason for this that is apparent in the C500's image. I'll quote Andy Shipsides article from AbelCine:

"Adding gain adjustments at the sensor level produces a consistent stop range above and below the middle grey level, even at high ISOs, and reduces the overall noise in the image. Other cameras do all of this work in post, which means the stop range above or below middle grey changes as you move your ISO. Canon is implementing these adjustments at the sensor level at higher bit depths and then outputting the results."

source: http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/05/what-exactly-is-canon-raw/

Whether the benefits of that type of raw output are worth it is up to you, but it is still raw sensor information - and arguably even "more raw" since it is uncompressed, unlike Red or Sony ;)
 
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imax said:
the CD 7Q make only the 50 and 60p at 4k half raw canon.. as I red on the manual...
Click to expand...

This is not correct - the 7Q will record full resolution 4K at DCI or UHD spec at up to 60p from the C500. However, you'll need 2 SSD's to record in 50p or 60p. The 7Q will record even frames on one SSD, and odd frames on the other. These are then combined very quickly and easily using CD's ClipMerger program.

If you want 4K @ 100p or 120p, then you'll need to record in 4K half-raw mode, run ClipMerger, and interpolate to 4K using Canon's Raw Developer program. There will be a loss of vertical resolution due to the nature of how half-raw outputs data (skipping every other vertical pixel line, but outputting all 4096 horizontal pixel lines).

source: I own a C500 and Odyssey 7Q and shoot full 4K resolution at 60p on a regular basis.
 
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cowpunk52 said:
source: I own a C500 and Odyssey 7Q and shoot full 4K resolution at 60p on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

So which is the best way to shoot? the higher quality in 4K 50p? sorry but I'm quite confused.. i'll rent the camera saturday and I have no too much time to test it!
thank you!
 
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http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/05/what-exactly-is-canon-raw/

What Exactly is Canon Raw?
posted by Andy Shipsides
Monday, 05 November 2012

Resolve treats the RMF like a DPX file, not a Raw file where you have ISO adjustments etc, because all of the image processing is baked-in.

- at 2K resolution there is no debayering.

At 4K there is the color interpolation - debayering.

---

imax - I prefer 2K RGB 444 10bit (or 12bit with 16bit DPX recording) with no color interpolation (or "debayering" if you want).
 
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cowpunk52 - I think that "raw sensor data" is a clear category.

If you have another processing on raw sensor data then resulting signal is not (!) raw sensor data but "processed raw sensor data".

At 2K you don't need color interpolation, this signal is final video, at 4K you need Canon raw development utility for interpolation 4K from this final 2K video, input is exactly the same as at 2K - it is final 2K video, from this video you make 4K.

I think that raw is raw and 2K video is 2K video, sorry that I can't agree with you, I also can't agree that "half vertical resolution" of half raw (which is not raw but processed and interpolated 4K half from full 2K video) is 100/120p - it is not, it is 100/120p with half vertical resolution (exactly the same thing as 25p vs 50i at HD).

I hope that I make things more cleare.
 
...i'm doing some test..
Why when I convert 4K RAW 50p Canon software (cinema raw development) export prores at 25? if i'd like to export at 50p?
thank you!
C
 
Pave1 said:
...exactly the same thing as 25p vs 50i at HD.
Click to expand...

An interlaced signal has time shifted fields where the two components making up a frame are captured at different times. The drawing of an interlaced 'frame' jumps back and forth between to moments in time when it is drawn line by line.

The progressive signal cowpunk52 describes has half vertical resolution, but is captured on a frame by frame basis like true progressive. When the lines making up the frame are drawn there is no time difference between one line and the next, within each frame—hence it's progressive.
 
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