Best Unidirectional Shotgun Microphone?

NorBro

NorBro

Major Contributor
Hi, what's the best shotgun microphone you've ever used that completely rejects sounds from all sides besides the front? Thank you for your time.
 
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How mucn are you looking to spend? \
No mic completely rejects off axis sounds. A long shotgun has the tightest pattern but there are many trade-offs. Like most film sound pros, I have a long shotgun (AT 4071) and rarely use it and don't recall taking in out of the case since a soccer field scene in the 2013 'Mi America' movie. (plug: on HBO in March)
If I were to purchase another (and had a real job with a generous Xmas bonus), I'd get the Schoeps CMIT5U.... But then I wouldn't need it if I had... a real job.
 
If you're asking for personal experience, then for me, it's the Audio-Technica AT8035 with simply excellent side rejection. There is some pickup in the back though, not excessive. It is however, a very long mic - so not suitable for putting on a camera, as it'll likely show up in the frame. It is also a very affordable mic, new under $300 - I can't think of a better mic (for side rejection) anywhere near that price range with the exception of the AT8015 with which I have no personal experience. If you're willing to spend many thousands though, I've read - though not personally experienced - of more exotic options; I'm sure the pros can chime in with a bunch of recommendations.
 
For what sort of use? I'd say for typical use, I like the Sanken CS-3e. It's a short shotgun mic that's fairly directional; I find it great at pulling out voices in busy streets, conference halls, and other such places where some other short shotguns pick up (for me) too much ambience and other voices. But you know, there are other mics that sound a bit better, imo; Schoeps CMIT, for example...and its characteristics are a benefit in quieter locations. And the Sanken takes a bit of technique and attention on a boompole since it's narrow pickup pattern (a benefit!) requires you keep talent/character/voice on axis. But it's a good tool. About $1500USD
http://www.sanken-mic.com/en/product/product.cfm/8.1001500

Perhaps the Sanken CS-2 and CSR-2 are a bit more directional (and the CSR-2 has a neat "no rear lobe" feature), but I've only demoed those in shops and at trade shows...no real-world experience.

Maybe you could look at something like the Audio-Technica 4071L or Sennheiser MKH70 or 8070....those are long and VERY directional. But I haven't used them...IIRC, they're mainly aimed at stuff like sports coverage (like getting the golfer's swing, field sports, etc) were you want super directionality but may not want the limited tonal range of a parabola or something...But not my world of docs, newsmags, corporate.... $1000-$2000ish it looks like.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/efc2755391246e9b/index.html

https://en-us.sennheiser.com/long-gun-condenser-microphone-broadcast-sporting-events-mkh-8070

But I'm just winging it here. What sort of budget are you working with? And more importantly, what sort of situations do you intend to use this mic in and what sorts of noises are you hoping the mic will reject?

Jim
 
Thank you all!

The mic I have the most experience with is a Sennheiser MKH-416. How is that mic's rejection compared to others?

My main use would be in an office setting capturing run-and-gun soundbites with the mic on a boom during busy work hours where you can't close the business down, and there is general office noise where everything is being filmed (mostly people talking on phones). I know there is only so much you can do, but I figured I'd ask.

I'd like to keep the budget below $1000, but if you tell me that these other options aren't going to be much better than a 416 then I would understand.
 
Well as others have said shotguns don't reject a lot from the rear, and can be problematic in reflective spaces. Parabolic mics and the ones with a bunch of tubes all pointing in the same direction actually wont pick up anything (or VERY little) from the sides and rear but they are not at all practical for your use and they don't sound that good often.

There is that mic (Senn. maybe?) that uses a bunch of capsules and a processor to create a very tight pattern. It would be closer to what you are looking for but it is quite $$$$.

Distance is probably your best bet. Get in as close as possible.
 
My advice would be to stick with what you know - the MKH-416. Other more exotic mics will have better side rejection, but will cost far more than $1K. Meanwhile, any mic around $1K or below is not going to be appreciably better than the MKH-416, it's an industry workhorse for a reason. Sure, some of the ones suggested (including the ones I suggested) will be slightly better at side rejection, but I suspect not in a way that's very noticeable. The fact that you already own the MKH-416 and know how to work it, beats whatever marginal advantage an AT-4071 or AT-8035 or AT-8015 would have. There are also other considerations - you know the sound you get from the MKH-416, but how about the sound of the mics apart from the side rejection capabilities? For example the AT8015 is twice as long (18" vs 9") as the MKH-416, but some people find the sound of the AT-8015 a bit thin, whereas the 416 is a kind of almost industry standard. I'd save the money and use the MKH-416 and try to find other ways to get better sound in the situation (getting close being #1).
 
NorBro said:
Thank you all!


My main use would be in an office setting capturing run-and-gun soundbites with the mic on a boom during busy work hours where you can't close the business down, and there is general office noise where everything is being filmed (mostly people talking on phones). I know there is only so much you can do, but I figured I'd ask.
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I have done a ton of the kind of stuff you are describing above, and in my experience the key to success is not the mic, but the mic technique. I used to use a long Senn shotgun for this kind of stuff if I was using the mic on camera, but you do get a lot of weird reverberations, especially in hard rooms like offices tend to be. Shotguns tend to pick up some sound straight backwards from where you are pointing the business end, and if that happens to be a hard surface like an opposing wall, you get some very strange echo'y sound patterns. I added a Sennheiser MKH50 and a boom (and an operator when I can) to my set up and get that hypercardiod right in close to the speaker, above or below, and it's MUCH better sound than a shotgun from 4-5 feet away. It may seem counter-intuitive at first, but try it and see. Great sounding mic too. Generally I only find myself using my long really directional shotguns outdoors now, in the wide shots. In really noisy environments like a factory floor, or a trade show floor, if you have the time, I prefer using a Countryman B6 (Only $350) with a wireless or wire. They are so tiny that with a cap the color of the speakers shirt you can stick it through a button hole, lodge it behind the button and leave it right in the shot and nobody notices. Turn the speaker around so the noise is behind them (bodies block sound pretty well) and you can record good dialog in some VERY noisy places and make it sound good. Proximity is at least as important as mic characteristics.
 
I kind of doubt a shotgun is what you want for that. A close in boomed cardioid might work, it would be cheap enough to give it a try. I am assuming you do not want to wire people up.
 
Best rejection is a long shotgun such as the sennheiser 816 but the 416 is the best all round mic I have personally used, I am a big fan of the AT875r short shotgun too if you want value for money in a compact length mic.
 
Isn't the Sennheiser MKH 416 one of the more laserlike shotguns already?

Upon reading your question, my first instinct was to say, "You're doing it wrong," but I held myself back, waiting for some detail to your production that might warrant special gear. Having found none so far, I agree with those who say, just use what you have and concentrate on placement.

Maybe also see what room treatment you can do. Don't knock yourself out. I'm talking something simple and cheap that would make a difference, if any. I admit I am not an expert in room treatment, so maybe ignore what I said unless a wizened sound guy chimes in.

But yeah, just get the mic within a couple feet above the person, pointed down at the chin. And again I could be wrong, but I would think that any noise be pleasantly muffled in the background. It would be there, but in a good way. It would be atmosphere.


Testing a week before, in the same location, might be the best thing you can do.
 
NorBro said:
I think mic technique/placement will be key here, but maybe trying a hyper-cardioid condenser (I think that's more narrow than a super, right?)
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I am not sure there is a real difference between a super- and a hyper-cardioid. I think it is more that different manufacturers use one term or the other. More a case of they are more directional than a cardioid, and less directional than a figure-8. You can find a lot of nit-picking both ways if you look about a bit. Anyone know of a company that claims to make both types?
 
NorBro said:
The mic I have the most experience with is a Sennheiser MKH-416. How is that mic's rejection compared to others?

My main use would be in an office setting capturing run-and-gun soundbites with the mic on a boom during busy work hours where you can't close the business down, and there is general office noise where everything is being filmed (mostly people talking on phones). I know there is only so much you can do, but I figured I'd ask.

I'd like to keep the budget below $1000, but if you tell me that these other options aren't going to be much better than a 416 then I would understand.
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I work in that sort of environment fairly regularly. My main two boom mics are a Schoeps 641 and the Sanken CS-3e. I LOVE the sound of the Schoeps, but the CS-3e is great when we're working fast and I don't know if I'll be able to get as close to the talent as I'd like. The rear lobe isn't usually a problem and is pretty good in reflective/verby rooms. Also: I have a 416, still a good mic but keep it mainly for backup, sentimental, and zombie-fighting reasons...and it's much worse in reflective environments, imo. I don't think I'd buy another 416 at this point.

But with that directionality, comes uh, directionality. The CS-3e isn't the best for splitting between two speakers...if you can swing it a bit, it's great. If two or more people are speaking spontaneously and overlapping, it's a bit tricky to keep everyone on axis.

I don't have a good sample to share, but somewhere (maybe Facebook?) the PSM who recorded most of the New York City street voxpops for this John Oliver piece said he used a CS-3e and the producers were astonished at the rejection of all the street noise. Go to 23:50 if the "start at" link below doesn't work. Note, NSFW and political language.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rSDUsMwakI&t=688s

Yep, I'm recommending a mic several hundred dollars over your hoped-for budget. But I haven't tried every mic out there. So here's what I suggest. Take your 416, mixer, and headphones down to a good location-audio dealer in New York City (since your in LI, that shouldn't be too hard, right)? I think an audio dealer makes sense here. Maybe call ahead and say you'd like to demo some mics. Tell them your needs and your budget. Maybe they have something used for sale... Get the employees to talk a bit, maybe have one make noise off axis while you boom over another. Compare the mics both through your cans, and if you can bring or borrow a little recorder, over good audio monitors (perhaps on the dealer's system?). Still can't quite decide? Rent the two leading candidates for a weekend.

The two NYC location-dealers I've done business with (And that I see mentioned most often by good mixers) are:

Professional Sound Services
http://www.pro-sound.com

Gotham Sound
https://www.gothamsound.com


Good luck and let us know what you decide.
 
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NorBro said:
The mic I have the most experience with is a Sennheiser MKH-416. How is that mic's rejection compared to others?
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Compared to the best in the field, the 416 is dated. It's going to give you some coloration on the sides, and it's a little on the noisy side (which won't matter in a less than really quiet environment).

NorBro said:
My main use would be in an office setting capturing run-and-gun soundbites with the mic on a boom during busy work hours where you can't close the business down, and there is general office noise where everything is being filmed (mostly people talking on phones). I know there is only so much you can do, but I figured I'd ask.

I'd like to keep the budget below $1000, but if you tell me that these other options aren't going to be much better than a 416 then I would understand.
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People have given you the best shotguns out there -- the Sanken CS-3e, the Schoeps CMIT5, Sennheiser MKH 8060, etc. I've seen the Sennheiser go by on the used forums for under your budget, haven't followed the others much as shotguns just aren't high on my list of needs.

But I'm thinking that's not going to be what gives you the best results in the office setting you're talking about. I'm thinking you'll get better sound from something like a Sennheiser MKH8050, or a Schoeps CMC6+mk41. The reason I say this is that interference tube mics (that is, shotguns) don't perform well in the presence of rapid reflections like you get near ceilings and walls (can result in comb filtering artifacts). They also tend to give you more from the rear lobe than you might think they would. A hypercardioid solves these problems, and gives you really quite good out of pattern attenuation. IOW, the hypers trade off a small amount of out of pattern attenuation to get better overall sound quality. I'm just sayin'.

That said, if you know what you're doing and you're good at booming, you can perhaps get away with using a short shotgun in this situation just fine. Clearly, YMMV.
 
Take a listen (wear headphones) to this and see how omnis, hyper, and shotgun mics behave in a live room. You'll see that in this demonstration, the hypers perform significantly better than the shotgun. Also notice that the omni lav performs very well, perhaps the best in the strong echo environment. Again, placement has a lot to do with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mniyClIcB7s

Given what you are doing, I would for sure use a lav. The key being that you can place that mic very close to the signal and get great results. We do this regularly on our live television broadcasts where there are hosts talking while there is a lot of other conversations going on in the studio. I often talk to one of the hosts just off camera while the other host is on the air with no issues. Some lavs are better than others in this environment. My go to is the Tram TR-50. There is a clone that is much cheaper (about $100).
 
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You've all provided me lots of useful information and options -- thank you very much!

That CS-3e really did do a great job on those streets where the noise just consumes you. I wonder if they did any post work, but still.

I'm going to have to do some testing with a few choices I have in mind in the same environment with the same noise and see how they compare to the 416.

I hope I don't get obsessed with microphones now. :2vrolijk_08:
 
NorBro said:
That CS-3e really did do a great job on those streets where the noise just consumes you. I wonder if they did any post work, but still.
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IIRC, the mixer didn't mention any; his main point was that the CS-3e worked so well in tricky environments that even the producers commented. :-)

And considering the probable timeline and that a few of the other bits have a fair amount of BG noise, I'm guessing that post may have done a bit of EQ and dynamics processing but didn't break out Izotope RX or anything....And those tracks pretty much match what I get with the CS-3e.

Good luck with your tests.
 
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NorBro said:
Hi, what's the best shotgun microphone you've ever used that completely rejects sounds from all sides besides the front? Thank you for your time.
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There is only one shotgun on the market that does this - the Schoeps Super CMiT.

All other shotguns have a rear, out of phase, lobe that will pick up sound from the rear. The Super CMiT has a rear facing capsule and internal digital processing that can cancel out the rear lobe.

But, be aware, that the Super CMiT is an AES42 digital mic. and will neet to be plugged into an AES42 enabled input, or an AES3 or S-PDIF digital input via an adaptor box (supplied by Shoeps or Neumann).

It's a superb mic. :thumbsup:
 
combatentropy said:
Isn't the Sennheiser MKH 416 one of the more laserlike shotguns already?
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No - the MKH 816 is far more directional - and the MKH 70 and MHH 8070 are more directional than the old 416 - the Svhoeps Super CMiT is also more directional.

But the Sennheiser mics are interference tube mics based on a super-cardioid capsule and, as such, have a rear out-of-phase pick-up lobe that the OP didn't want.
 
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