Best post-audio software for Windows

[nyquist-x]

Hi Noiz, man, no need to take it personal :cheesy: As I said before, PT is the business standard, and unless something changes radicaly, it will remain the same.

If we go back to the original question, my answer is Pro Tools, why? because you learn what the pro´s use, so in the future you can work on almost any facility out there (at least on the US). But that´s not what I´m trying to point here, I just tried to show why nuendo is a real professional tool like PT HD, and not like LE. If you get to known nuendo very well, you´ll have zero probs with PT, it´s more friendly user than nuendo. I think that TC is a must in post production, much more if you make works around the globe with different tc´s.

Oh, and check this out about delay compensation on LE.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/186501-plug-delay-compensation-protools-le-mp.html yeah, manual delay compensation it´s definitly not a Pro feature.

You are still comparing a nuendo rig vs a Le rig, and as you said, it´s LIMITED. and that´s why nuendo is much expensier than LE, because it´s virtually Unlimited (depends on CPU) and open branded. It doesn´t matter if YOU use all the channels or if you use TC or not, it just plain comparision, one has it, the other don´t.

Just think in this situation: you own a professional studio and you´ve to purchase some gear for a new room. Probably in the US, you wouldn´t think of anything different than PT, because it´s a standard and if you don´t have a fixed operator, you´ll have to hire freelancers.

If you don´t need to switch between rooms and studios, you can choose between several DAW´s, and lets compare a nuendo rig with decent AD/DA´s with a HD rig with a 192 i/o. Of course, you´ll have to purchase at least one HD Core PCIe or Accel card for 96 channels.

So:

PT HD1 w/ 192i/o $9.000 (for 16 channels i/o - 96 channel software) - Nuendo w/ Apogee AD-16X + DA-16X $8.200 (for 16 channels i/o - CPU depending channel software).
PT HD2 w/ 192i/o $11.700 (for 16 channels i/o - 192 channel software) - Nuendo w/ Apogee AD-16X + DA-16X $8.200 (for 16 channels i/o - CPU depending channel software).

Noiz, I really don´t want to start a PT vs Nuendo bashing topic here, it seems that your a PT fan and I really respect that, because I also use PT LE and it´s a really great tool with excellent features (some borrowed for other daws rogar-BigGrin(DBG)) just kidding man rogar-Happy(DBG):

Best Regards.
Fernando

 

[Noiz2]

Hi Noiz, man, no need to take it personal

I didn't sorry if I came off that way.

I think that TC is a must in post production, much more if you make works around the globe with different tc´s.

In general I disagree, though it has been pointed out a couple of situations where I just take it for granted and didn't notice it was actually still important.

The reason why I don't put it up there (and I used to) is that the flow on 90% of ad's and micro (and low (but not Hollywood low (20mill))) budget films and video is that picture edit locks, sends you an OMF and you go from there and either send them back a PT session or your doing it all and you send them back the mixed tracks that they drop back into their NLE. Nowhere in that flow is TC necessary. Your session is based off the OMF and your either sending them a session or a mixed track. They are either locking to picture at a mix stage or they are dropping in your mix. Everything is self resolved and your not syncing to any external boxes so TC is generally irrelevant.

It becomes important again IF you get music cues that are positioned by TC OR if you need to conform to picture changes AND you have conform software OR they can generate a change note. FCP can't generate change notes nor can PP or Vegas nor I believe can the cheaper Avid's. So unless the pict dept is working on a $30K NLE OR you have dropped $800 for conforming software it's not an issue. It SHOULD be there and it was stupid of Digi to take it out but the reality is these days that it isn't actually that important, Most of the time. WE finished an ad for a company a couple of years ago and didn't notice till we went to lay back (long enough ago that we still laid back to DA88) that the spot was in PAL. TC just doesn't come up like it used to. And I say this as a big TC guy. I spent way too much of my life syncing and locking various tape formats with TC, pilot tone, FSK you name it. But 90%-99% of the time these days that is wasted space in my brain.

So:
PT HD1 w/ 192i/o $9.000 (for 16 channels i/o - 96 channel software) - Nuendo w/ Apogee AD-16X + DA-16X $8.200 (for 16 channels i/o - CPU depending channel software).
PT HD2 w/ 192i/o $11.700 (for 16 channels i/o - 192 channel software) - Nuendo w/ Apogee AD-16X + DA-16X $8.200 (for 16 channels i/o - CPU depending channel software).

Now your being a bit unfair, the 96i/o shouldn't really figure in Visa Vi the Apogee. So your Nuendo setup is cheaper than the PT HD. On the other hand you can run that HD rig (if you get PCI cards) on a G4 and the Nuendo on a G4 would have a hard time with any plugins. Also Apogee isn't going to give you any trade in so when you need to upgrade it will be full cost - what ever the old boxes can fetch on the used market. And you can get more channels out of that 192 for relatively little more cost. But the Apogee may stay usable longer than the 192? - hard to say. Then again for post you don't really need to do 192 so the 96 i/o is fine BUT you may be able to get an Apogee that matches for less?

What's my point? Pretty much yours. Both are top of the line systems and they both cost about the same for about the same capabilities.

Noiz, I really don´t want to start a PT vs Nuendo bashing topic here, it seems that your a PT fan and I really respect that, because I also use PT LE and it´s a really great tool with excellent features (some borrowed for other daws rogar-BigGrin(DBG)) just kidding man rogar-Happy(DBG):

Best Regards.
Fernando

I don't either. I think both are very solid. And pretty much all of PT's post features are from Audio Vision, the DAW Digi bought and then merged into Protools. So you may be kidding but your right ;~)

And to be clear I use PT everyday, but I'm not in love with it. I like it for editing but some of that is familiarity. I use it because that's what my industry uses. If the film industry changed to Nuendo and Windows I would also. And I'm sure I would find somethings in Nuendo that I would be amazed that I had lived with out and there would be some things I would be moaning about that i felt PT did better.

I will give one big + for Nuendo and that is that apparently they make (partly anyway) the BUG db viewable on the user site, so as a user you can find out if what you hate is getting fixed soon. That would make them the only major company that I know of to be that open with their users.

 

[nyquist-x]

What you said about TC it´s very real! We´ve a slightly different workflow at work, sometimes TC is kind of needed because we make changes with our onlines suites (flame hd and smoke) back and fort, and there´s no OMF there. The common sentense: "just move two frames this sfx, and three this other one"... of course this is a minimized example.

You can match the 96 i/o setup, with an Apogee 800 (ok, just 8 channels, but 192Khz). PT $7200 vs Nuendo $4600. You can spend the rest in a couple of nice preamps or a better pc/mac.

You´re right about digidesigne xchange program, they made that deal part of the ecuation and of course, their business is hardware oriented. I think that high end audio like apogee or top brands doesn´t depreciate that much, but Digi has greater scalability and this is strong sales argument.

I think that Steinberg folks are a little more mind open to listen to their influent clients, but It might me because they own a little piece of the market and it easier to focus on what they want... maybe they don´t want to be the business standards.. bah who knows! Anyway, almost all big post studios that have nuendo, they´ve PT HD as steam recorder... that means something , right?! rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Thanks for sharing your thoughs and discuss this issue in a wide open way! I really appreciate it.

Best Regards.
Fernando

 

[greymog]

PT is the standard, has always been, it could do everything waaaaay back that most platform can do now.

I've always liked steinberg's products, but really the only reason I can push that is cause the shortcuts are now imprinted in my brain.

I've just switched to Logic after years of Nuendo and PT, I personally love it, it does what I want it to do, and I've heard (but not sure) that they have a version out for windows. I could've sworn I heard that.

The steinberg products always impressed me for some reason. ProTools has always been there, but really with the DAW's, it's a question of interface for you, they all 'work' the same way.

The other question is with the software's processing engine. I've heard that Nuendo's is superior to any other DAW in terms of software processing, but the minute you hook up to an interface it does most of the work.

Hardware selection is important, instead of doing your processing on your cpu, you start putting these loads on interface for in and out, effects accelerators for dsp, all that.

Do you need to be recording more than 4 channels simultaneously?

 

[Chamber005]

Wow, lots of audio programs here I've never heard of.

What about just using the CS4 suite for everything? Premiere pro + Soundbooth, etc. Seems to be sufficient.

 

[Alex H.]

Wow, lots of audio programs here I've never heard of.

What about just using the CS4 suite for everything? Premiere pro + Soundbooth, etc. Seems to be sufficient.

Sufficient is the key word. Just like Soundtrack Pro to Final Cut, those programs are optimized for moving in and out of one, specific application. They aren't without their limitations, either. I don't use Soundbooth or any of the Creative Suite (other than PhotoShop), but I can tell you that STP is full of bugs. I'd never trust these apps as reliable, dedicated audio post suites.

If it's just you and your own, personal work flow (this has been said several times in this thread), do what works for you and what you understand. Use the tools you have/can afford/are able to get the most out of. Those bundled apps are certainly sufficient for basic, non-intensive audio post work. Keep in mind that these are audio applications that are built by video application people and are built both to fit a video editor's thinking and to speak most efficiently with their relative host apps.

Applications like ProTools, Nuendo, Sequoia, etc. are built by audio people to fit an audio mentality and to interface with a wider variety of project sources. Yes, ProTools (Digidesign) is owned by AVID, but it didn't start that way. It is still maintained specifically as an audio program, not a bundled app with AVID, and is far more capable than things like Soundbooth, Sound Forge (world's ugliest desktop interface) and STP.

 

[Alex H.]

Cubase Le4 came with my H4n Zoom and I find that I can't make it work with all their BS numbers and can't find their tech support. It is useless, any sound adjustments are made in Adobe Premier Pro.

I think this issue got passed over. Steinberg isn't going to give you any support for the version of LE4 that came with the Zoom. It's a bundle conundrum (say that 5 times fast)... Samson (Zoom) assumes responsibility for it, but offers no support, and Steinberg won't help because it's Samson's responsibility. I found this out when I bought a Zoom, and installed LE4 just out of morbid curiosity. Turns out that LE4 has some compatibility issues with newer operating systems, but there was no upgrade available (again: Steinberg didn't support and Samson didn't care).

Not that Cubase LE is going to do you much good for video post, if you are just looking for a basic, multi-track recording and mixing app and Cubase suits your needs, spend the $150 and get a USB audio interface like the Lexicon Lambda (better, $200 for the Omega... but the pre-amps, while not the worst I've heard, aren't the best). It's bundled with Cubase LE5 and even has tech support from Steinberg, though the other catch is that Steinberg doesn't offer as much support for LE as they do for the full version of Cubase. And you'll still be able to use the files recorded on your Zoom.

 

[Noiz2]

PT is the standard, has always been, it could do everything waaaaay back that most platform can do now.

Actually that isn't the case. Waveframe was king then Audio Vision was a player and a few other highend systems such as Fairlight were around quite early. PT came with sort of the second wave and was the affordable option (a WaveFrame ran around $35K).

The other question is with the software's processing engine. I've heard that Nuendo's is superior to any other DAW in terms of software processing, but the minute you hook up to an interface it does most of the work.

Hardware selection is important, instead of doing your processing on your cpu, you start putting these loads on interface for in and out, effects accelerators for dsp, all that.

I think your confusing interfaces and DSP. "Native" apps like Nuendo and PT Le and Logic don't require any dedicated DSP cards. PT HD does require DSP cards. There are also boxes that offer DSP offloading for VST plugins that work with just about any DAW. The interface just gives a way for the digital signals to to the outside world and don't do any processing that the DAW would do.

Do you need to be recording more than 4 channels simultaneously?

??? Not sure how that figures into things. All of the software mentioned can record more than four tracks at the same time and in a post workstation I can't think of a situation where you would be recording four inputs except if your recording music for the film, but music isn't considered part of audio post )for films anyway) so...

 

[Noiz2]

Cubase Le4 came with my H4n Zoom and I find that I can't make it work with all their BS numbers and can't find their tech support.

I will temper my earlier comments. I just installed Le4, had it sitting around since getting the Zoom. And it all went OK works fine etc. BUT it is one of the most convoluted registration processes I have had to endure. So while it did work (MBP, 10.6 - so Win might be harder?) it was a big pain and involved typing a lot of characters so LOTS of room to make a mistake.

So I'll give you the vent and the "BS numbers";~)

As for Sony try deinstalling the demo first. That used to be a royal pain (on Win 98) don't know if it still is. If it's as funky as it used to be a trick I used (when I had deleted an app I should have "deinstalled") was to reinstall and then officially deinstall. That usually cleaned up registry whackyness. But that is 10 year old Win advice so...