Best post-audio software for Windows

G

gi-jones

Well-known member
Topic really sums it up. I need to get started doing audio-post, and I need somewheres to start. What software is good? I don't want any beginner/amateur stuff, I'd rather spend the time I need to get to know a tool that will last.

So what are the options, and what's recommended?
 
ProTools is pretty much it, especially if you want to be able to receive projects from and send projects to other studios. The only problem with PT in the Windows world is that, well... it's running on Windows. So it crashes. My old network switched from Mac to PC in their ProTools suites after I left, and when I picked up some freelance shifts there, they walked me through the renovated DAW rooms and then said, "The only real challenge with Windows is that ProTools likes to lock up. When that happens, just force it to quit, then reboot." Ugh. That, and I have to switch my keyboard thinking from CMD to CTL.
 
It really depends on what you want to do. If you want to work in the film post world in the US then Pro Tools is the only real choice. Not because it's the "best" nec. but because it's what you have to know to work. If your all on your own then you have more freedom. Probably #2 is Nuendo, more popular in europe than the US and more common in music circles than post but a solid feature set for post. One I used to use when I was on Windows (and that is also a consideration, audio post is probably 80-90% Mac in the US, so if your going to be trying to get work in studios etc you might get familiar with Mac OS), is SAW (Software Audio Workshop), don't know what it's like now but was a VERY solid and stable app with a lot of user support. more widly used by music folks are apps like Sonar, and other apps that come out of MIDI sequencers (and that is Nuendo also actually). There is also Pyramix, that is popular in europe. Waveframe used to be a big player in the US but I think they are out of business, and though they ran on Windows it was on dedicated hardware, and it was $$$$$.

In terms of lasting... Bigger companies that are dedicated to the app are probably the best bet. Not sure who other than Digidesign qualify for that. One of Nuendo's hurtles is that folks are not sure it's going to be around for the long haul and most people don't want to learn an app and then have to switch because the parent company decided that some video game was more profitable.
 
I guess I should have been clearer. What I'll be doing is basically post for my own projects. I'll give Nuendo a look - thanks.
 
Noiz2 said:
In terms of lasting... Bigger companies that are dedicated to the app are probably the best bet. Not sure who other than Digidesign qualify for that. One of Nuendo's hurtles is that folks are not sure it's going to be around for the long haul and most people don't want to learn an app and then have to switch because the parent company decided that some video game was more profitable.
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I think Steinberg is not a small company that might disappear, so nuendo will be around for a while. it's also used a lot for music mixing.

I have both pro tools and cubase for music production, both are pretty much the same, the only issue I have with pt is that it doesn't work with soundcards from 3rd parties which makes my Alesis master control useless with it.
 
EShy said:
I think Steinberg is not a small company that might disappear, so nuendo will be around for a while. it's also used a lot for music mixing.

I have both pro tools and cubase for music production, both are pretty much the same, the only issue I have with pt is that it doesn't work with soundcards from 3rd parties which makes my Alesis master control useless with it.
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Well true Steinberg will probably still be around but will Nuendo? At this point in time I tend to agree with you but when it first came out it was a big question. And at least here in the states they have not made a big effort to woo the post community so it's still seen as primarily a music DAW. I haven't played much with it since version 1 but even it had an impressive feature set. I didn't particularly like the way it worked but that is probably at least partially because I was so used to PT. So over here it's still the new "unprooven" kid on the block. With faster computers maybe someone will give it a shot at a major film and who knows? It also doesn't end up significantly cheaper once you have comparable systems and it has no cheap entry point both hurt them in market share. If I'm looking for cheap then the educational discount on PT Le is hard to beat, if I'm a pro then why spend close to the same money for a system that is not compatible (or only semi compatible translating through OMF) with 90% of the post facilities I'll be working with? Now if your in the middle and want a big feature set but you don't want/ need to spend money on really good hardware and you don't need to interact with those post houses/ mix stages then Nuendo is a very cost effective choice.
 
Noiz2 said:
If I'm looking for cheap then the educational discount on PT Le is hard to beat, if I'm a pro then why spend close to the same money for a system that is not compatible (or only semi compatible translating through OMF) with 90% of the post facilities I'll be working with? Now if your in the middle and want a big feature set but you don't want/ need to spend money on really good hardware and you don't need to interact with those post houses/ mix stages then Nuendo is a very cost effective choice.
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A couple of things. Doesn't PT {whicheverversion} require specific audio hardware? On a quick look at the wiki on PT Le, there's mention of not being able to import OMF files. If this is true, doesn't it sort of elminate one ground for using the program, that is the interchange factor.

There is the knobology factor, where one uses the lite version, and then can move quickly into the pro version, because the basic interface is the same. But on the issue of specific hardware, and the interchange, it seems that unless someone does in fact plan to move up, some other solution that doesn't lock in hardware, or perhaps allows more interchange at a cheaper entry price, may be better.

Personally my budget is at the 'wait for AAF/OMF to be added/plugged-in to Ardour...
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
A couple of things. Doesn't PT {whicheverversion} require specific audio hardware? On a quick look at the wiki on PT Le, there's mention of not being able to import OMF files. If this is true, doesn't it sort of elminate one ground for using the program, that is the interchange factor.
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To answer these in the opposite order:

First, ProTools LE can import OMFs and use Time Code with the DVToolKit plug-in, which is purchased separately.

Second, ProTools does use proprietary hardware. But you get the software free when you buy the hardware. With something like Nuendo, you buy the software and then can buy whatever hardware... but you are still paying for the software on top of the hardware.

But let's look at the cost comparison for a fully-capable system:

Nuendo 4 costs $1800, and that's just the software. Add a decent, basic interface: something like the MOTU 828mkII USB ($750). Now you're at $2550.

For audio post, if you don't need a huge, multi-track recording interface, you can get away with a ProTools MBox interface. So let's use the MBox2 (USB), since it is plenty of i/o for a small, DIY post suite. With the factory bundle (extra plug-ins), it's $550. Add the DVToolKit2 package ($1300) and you're at $1850 for hardware and software.

And even if you get a cheap interface for Nuendo (on of the little $250 USB boxes), it's still cheaper to get PTLE.

If $2550 is in your range, you can get the PTLE Digi003 Rack interface (comes with the PTLE software) and the DVToolkit plug-in for right at $2500.

Now, there's also Cubase (not LE, but the full version), which is $500 for the software. Add the cost of the hardware. Definitely much less expensive, but I have not been impressed with Cubase.
 
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C2V pretty much said it but to clarify my comment about interchangeability. OMF doesn't qualify, why? because it's a standard with out standards. There are two flavors and nobody seems to support both. Plus what you can send and what the other guy gets are completely dependent on those manufactures whims, and they usually won't tell you. So with out having done it with a specific program you have no way of knowing what your including with your OMF. The only thing that nec. travels is clip placement. And if your lucky and your app includes everything it can, you have no way to know in advance what the other guys app will bring in. It's OK but not great for the rather simple task of sending the picture editors choices to audio post but is completely useless for moving things around once audio post has started. So what works? Pro Tools sessions. 90%+ studios have PT and pretty much every post house and mix stage. It doesn't matter if your on Le or Hd send it and everything goes with it.

TC is only semi nec. for post. Everything is file based and though I have full TC capability I have hardly ever used it in the last five years or so. When tape ruled I used it all the time but not any more. You can pick up Digi Translator for less than $250 and that will give any version of PT OMF and AAF import/export. The Educational version of PT used to run around $150 and included TC and OMF. It used M-Audio hardware, which gives you some flexibility in hardware. But if your the second editor with someone who has OMF capability you can be up and running for around $450. I don't hate Nuendo but I do think they have priced themselves out of a market they could own. If Nuendo and an interface could be had for say $500 - $800 they would grab a BIG part of low budget film work that never goes to a mix stage. You could probably push that up to $1k or so and still be in good shape. But at almost $2k for software... It's hard to see people going that way unless they just hate Digi, and there are a fair number of those folks around.

j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
A couple of things. Doesn't PT {whicheverversion} require specific audio hardware? On a quick look at the wiki on PT Le, there's mention of not being able to import OMF files. If this is true, doesn't it sort of elminate one ground for using the program, that is the interchange factor.

There is the knobology factor, where one uses the lite version, and then can move quickly into the pro version, because the basic interface is the same. But on the issue of specific hardware, and the interchange, it seems that unless someone does in fact plan to move up, some other solution that doesn't lock in hardware, or perhaps allows more interchange at a cheaper entry price, may be better.

Personally my budget is at the 'wait for AAF/OMF to be added/plugged-in to Ardour...
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Noiz2 said:
You can pick up Digi Translator for less than $250 and that will give any version of PT OMF and AAF import/export. The Educational version of PT used to run around $150 and included TC and OMF. It used M-Audio hardware, which gives you some flexibility in hardware.
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I take it the educational version is no longer available?

As for various pricing structures, I had avoided Avid, because of what seemed to me to be a hanging on of the old style of providing the 'whole' package. Avid hasn't disappeared... one just doesn't see it on laptops in the middle of nowhere, unless of course the production includes an Avid setup somewhere... I think there was a brief toying with Avid Express {pro}, but appears to have retrenched to the > $2K packages.

In some sense Apple itself with Jobs at the helm has had this sort of 'we provide it all' for you... I buy Apple because I like the operating system, OSX, (during the OS 9 and lower era I only bought one Mac, ok it wasn't a Mac, but a Lisa, otherwise got customers to supply machines when I did driver work to add things that Apple didn't see as big enough for them.)... Mac OSX which really is at the core a *BSD derivative, with a reasonably good UI... If Apple in the future opens up their OS to more hardware... I'd probably buy the different hardware, but stay with the OS...

One of the Apple theories, and I presume this is the Pro Tools theory, is by limiting the hardware to a very controlled set, the overall user experience will be improved. There won't be a long latiny of 'hardware X doesn't work right with software Y'.

The unfortunate side effect of that is a limiting choice in a fast changing technology environment.
 
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I take it the educational version is no longer available?
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Google, it's not that hard. Academic PT LINK


One of the Apple theories, and I presume this is the Pro Tools theory, is by limiting the hardware to a very controlled set, the overall user experience will be improved. There won't be a long latiny of 'hardware X doesn't work right with software Y'.

The unfortunate side effect of that is a limiting choice in a fast changing technology environment.
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I don't really see that much of a limitation. I spent years on Windows and one had to do a LOT of research to find out if the hardware you were going to buy would work with the software you wanted to use and then make sure the computer would run it and the OS would support it. It ended up being very limiting but in a less direct way. Also I don't see Digi lagging behind the times in hardware so that isn't much of an argument. In theory I see the point but in reality it isn't as big a deal as one would think. Also NOBODY else offers trade in credit on older hardware. Yes it keeps their customers loyal but it also saves them money. And few companies offer the level of support that Digi does. I'm starting to sound like a fanboy and I'm not, Digi has some issues, but not generally the ones that people point out.

The big similarity I see between Avid and Apple is that they both subsidize the price of the software with hardware sales.
 
Pro Tools
Adobe Audition
Cubase/Nuendo
Soundtrack Pro

I use Adobe Audition and I love it because I can import the video files and all the audio tracks for mixing/editing purposes.

Nicole
 
John Willett said:
The best = Sequoia (it's what I use myself) - it's baby brother Samplitude Pro is worth a look as well (€999 as opposed to €2,975 for Sequoia).

My second choice would be SADiE.
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2nd that, John is spot on, and furthermore, Samplitude DLV for $60 or so is a great, inexpensive route into pro audio. You just can't go wrong--hook that up to SIR reverb and you have all you need to start out. I run Sequoia on my home PC and both Sampltude and Samplitude Pro on my laptops. Sequoia is by far the best program I have used for audio.

Sadie is a good system, but I hasten to add that the versions I have seen are hardware based. Just because of that, I would rate Sequoia and Samplitude higher, and give the runner up to Pyramix. You can get the "Academic" version of Sequoia for $1600, and I have seen Samplitude Professional as low as $450 on eBay. No one I work with uses ProTools, but I'm sure it is fine. How could it not be?
 
Cubase Le4 came with my H4n Zoom and I find that I can't make it work with all their BS numbers and can't find their tech support. It is useless, any sound adjustments are made in Adobe Premier Pro. I loaded Sony trial software and then bought the version and couldn't use because the trial blocked it. The technology is screwing itself.
 
angelica14709 said:
Cubase Le4 came with my H4n Zoom and I find that I can't make it work with all their BS numbers and can't find their tech support. It is useless, any sound adjustments are made in Adobe Premier Pro. I loaded Sony trial software and then bought the version and couldn't use because the trial blocked it. The technology is screwing itself.
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I think it's a bit unfair to blame the software for your computer problems. Thousands if not millions of people have installed those apps with out problems so maybe you need to look at what your doing wrong or ask in the appropriate forums. Off the bat I would suggest uninstalling the demo. Plus none of what your mentioning actually relates to what the OP asked about.
 
DrDave said:
Sadie is a good system, but I hasten to add that the versions I have seen are hardware based. Just because of that, I would rate Sequoia and Samplitude higher, and give the runner up to Pyramix. You can get the "Academic" version of Sequoia for $1600, and I have seen Samplitude Professional as low as $450 on eBay. No one I work with uses ProTools, but I'm sure it is fine. How could it not be?
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This actually brings up a question that we probably should have asked the OP, and that is what their long term plans are. I have heard good things about SADIE and PYRAMIX, SAMPLITUDE was still only a two track app when last I was in the Windows world so wouldn't have qualified as a real post sound app. But in the "big time" film and video post world they are rare as the editing app. (less so in Europe). They are used for sound design and music creation sometimes but then the finished pieces are brought into Pro Tools for the editorial work. BUT if you don't have to live/work in that environment (Big Film post/ National Ad's/ Broadcast) you have a lot more freedom to use what you like best instead of having to use what is compatible and what folks will require you know to hire you.

Fundamentally these apps are more similar than different. Exactly HOW you do something will be different but WHAT your doing and WHY will be the same. So really almost any multi track sound app will work. Ones designed for post sound will have more features that make your life easier but you can do post on a multitrack tape deck if you work at it. If your goal is to work on normal budget shows professionally in the US then Pro Tools is something you will have to know to get work. But when I started doing films with budgets I didn't own Pro Tools and I was on a PC and PT didn't then run on PC's. The facility had editing systems and those were all Mac's running PT. But pretty much everything I learned from years of using SAW (a PC multi track editor) translated.
 
HI Guys! I think that comparing PT LE8 against Nuendo 4 isn´t a fair comparision.. and not only for budget.

There´re several differences between them that make LE a Music/Post begginer oriented software, and not a Pro one. Why?

* Limited Count Channels.
* No Automatic Delay Compensation.
* No timecode (unless DV Toolkit is purchased)
* No 5.1 designed :cry:
* Most interfaces for LE systems aren´t capable of outputting 5.1.
* No custom Key Commands / Macros.
* Poor Monitoring System.

Because of this, you can tell that LE isn´t designed to be Post oriented, they just add this excuse with the dvtoolkit, that´s pretty expensive ($1200) for this addons:

* 64 mono audio tracks
* Digidesign DINR™ LE intelligent noise reduction
* Digidesign TL Space™ — Native Edition convolution reverb
* Digidesign X-Form® time compression/expansion and pitch shifter
* DigiBase™ Pro full-featured file management tool
* DigiTranslator™ 2.0 for import/export of OMF, AAF, and MXF files
* Time Code and Feet + Frames functions
* Pro Tools® MP3 Option for exporting MP3 files

Buying DVToolkit plug LE is not far away from buying Nuendo 4.

I think that Nuendo 4 must compete with a PT HD system, and you´re talking about more than $2K.

Of course, I agree that PT is the business standard, but that doesn´t mean that it´s the best one :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Best Regards.
Fernando
 
Fernando,

I hate to respond to this kind of post because it is fundamentally flawed. OK your a Nuendo FanBoy, fine but most of these comparison lists are just BS. And tossing around the Pro VS Beginner titles is also a bunch of BS.

Limited track count, yes Nendo just doesn't tell you what that is and PT Le limits you to what they can guarantee. Pretty much every other "native" app claims "unlimited tracks". One of those I tested couldn't get up to 20 with out choking.

Le has the delay compensation built in it's the TDM folks who had to get it specifically installed.

TC may or may not be an issue depending on a few things and there is a way to get that functionality with out the DV Toolkit. But that is an issue.

5.1 is just stupid on these levels. Films are not edited in 5.1 and nobody buying Le has spent the money they NEED to spend to have a room set up properly for 5.1. And other than home grown DVD's you have no delivery format for 5.1 so just get over it.
The interface issue is another non starter. First Nuendo doesn't come with an interface so if you want something at say the Digi 003 level you need to add a few $K to the $2500 your spending on the software. So now your comparing a $4500 system with a sub $1000 (M-box 2 would be the interfaces that don't support 5.1) system and saying the one that costs 4.5X has more capabilities ...?duh

Custom keyboard layout is true but is it an issue? Not in the pro world where your generally not going to be working on your own system. Much better to know that keys will do what you expect them to. But that is another IF you want it it's an issue, IF you don't or don't care it isn't.

Not sure how the monitoring would be "poor", it's certainly good enough for a few thousand users.

DV toolkit is fairly expensive. The top end Le interface, software and DV toolkit almost costs what Nuendo software costs alone, that IS expensive.

It's 64 mono OR stereo, so potentially 128 tracks.

But if we can leave the bashing aside, Nuendo is a full on DAW and does more appropriately compete with a PT HD system than the Le. Le is after all a (Limited Edition) not the full edition.
The reason you would get PTLe is that every command you learn translates directly to an HD system so if you use Le at home you Can walk into pretty much any post facility and work. And because you Can do post work on it. You Can move your session to any other PT system and keep all your work. And you get a very capable system for a fraction of the cost of any of the FULL systems like PT HD or Nuendo with a decent interface. The other thing your buying into is the best trade-in, trade-up program around. You buy Le and later want to move up to HD you can get (depending on what promotions are going on) most to more than you spent as credit toward the HD system.

But Nuendo is an excellent application with serious pro features and a good reputation. If they could somehow figure out a way to save/export as a Pro Tools session (with out getting sued) they would have a lot more users. But Nuendo falters when you have to migrate to a Pro Tools environment. And like it or hate it audio post is almost a Pro Tools monopoly so IF you have to hand off to others (mix stages etc.) you have a problem. If your it and your doing the final mix etc OR your going to a place that uses Nuendo (VERY rare in the US more common in Europe) then your fine. If I had not started working full time in sound post in a professional environment I would probably still be on Windows and SAW. I liked it quite a bit. And maybe I would have moved to Nuendo? Hard to say. But trying to get a post sound job with out PT expertise is like trying to get hired as a carpenter and not knowing how to use a hammer.
 
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