best new HD cam for feature?

I'd spend the least amount of money I can on the camera and spend the most amount of money I can on getting a name actor because that will increase the chances of my film getting sold much more than what camera I used in the film

Just my opinion / 2cents
 
Red Epic if you could get one. You will have to wait a very long time unless you have a Red One. If not a Red One.
 
$300k total budget? Probably an F3.

$300k for camera/grip/electric? I don't know, rent an Epic or Alexa I suppose.

Ask again in six months, we'll all have a different answer then.
 
Ok lets assume $300,000.00 is total production budget. No post. Average 90 page script, to be done with care and quality. Simple drama, minimal effects shots. Average shoot time 25-27 days. ( 4 weeks @ 6 day weeks, 24 days; with three budgeted pick up days; now 27 days)

300,000 / 27 = 11,111 a day.

OK. So, lets assume the rental house or DP is giving you 3 day weeks on camera rental. REDMX = $1500 w/ RPP. @ 3 day weeks. Camera department is coming in at about $4500 a week, @ 4 weeks + 3 days for pickups, $22,500 for the whole shoot. So lets break it down as a "daily rate".... $22.500 / 27 days = $833

So out of our 11,111 a day $833 is gone. we are left with $10,278.

Grip and electric: Lets say again three day weeks, a decent package: $1500 a week.broken down as a day rate: $223 a day.

We are left with: $10,056 a day.

Craft services: at least enough for 25 people depending on cast, and grips usually eat for two. $300 a day + $100 for water, snacks etc and they arent eating great... just basic Italian food lunches and dunking donuts breakfasts.

left with $9656

Administrative costs over all: permits, Insurance, vehicles, deposits, expendables, location fees, wardrobe, art materials, Media storage, backups, $25,000 for the whole month. per day: $926

left with: $8730

Talent: $1500 a day average 3-7 actors vary pay scales.

left with $7230

So on set we need every day:

Director, Producer, Line producer, Script supervisor, AD, DP, 1st AC, 2nd AC, DIT, Gaffer, Best boy, Key Grip, Grip, Grip, Hair/make up, wardrobe, Art director, Art Hand, PA, PA, PA .
Thats 21 people, before talent. These are BASIC people. BASIC. You need all of them to make a film.

Averaged.... this comes out to $344 per person. but thats unrealistic. The Director and DP are getting more than the PA's. So let say PA's get $150 a day, and the Director gets $700 a day, department keys get about $500 a day, and everyone else get about $250.

So yes, a RED can work. :)

It may bite you in post, if you arent fully equipped to handle a 90+ min film @ 4k.

If I were producing/Directing or shootign a 300k feature, Id go F3 w/ Slog and a Ki Pro. quick to edit, easy to grade, and cheaper each day, meaning crew can eat better and be more efficient and less grumpy. In the low budget film world, keeping the crew happy is a major thing. the $200 a day yo usave can buy better lunches. :)
 
An F3 w/S-LOG and the same glass will cost as much to rent daily as an MX, inclined to say no matter where you go.

If you're paying more than 1,200/day for an MX w/glass @ 3/day weeks, you should probably seek a new producer.

Noone finishes @ 4K. There's no reason to bother with it. You transcode to a finishing format (1080 or 2k), store the 4K and move on. The post production cost isn't that much more intensive, especially if you're shooting S-LOG which still needs to be graded/treated appropriately, and on a 300K feature it surely isn't going to break anything but pockets being lined gently.

For 300K on a feature film, I wouldn't shoot anything less than MX, coming from a producer's standpoint.
 
Youre in LA man...

RED;s are more expensive out here. I hear in LA you can get a full MX pacakge for like $30 a day..... ;)


The F3 with lets say, a samurai and sLog, will run about $750 a day. RPP or CP's run about $250. all in all its a bit cheaper.

Average red ( thats actually usuable ie has the right accesories) is about $1500 here w/ Red Pro Primes or Super Speed mkI 's.

My panchros go for about $425 a day, and my CP1's get about $250 a day.
 
TimurCivan said:
Youre in LA man...

RED;s are more expensive out here. I hear in LA you can get a full MX pacakge for like $30 a day..... ;)
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I've heard the same for NY. Doesn't seem any different, and F3 rentals aren't that much lower if at all lower considering the cost of the camera + S-Log etc.

Again, even in post, S-Log needs to be treated the same as RED footage... there's no difference aside from the better results you'll get in production and post from RED. Unless you're getting an F3+ S-Log full package @ 700/day 3/day weeks, why bother?
 
TimurCivan said:
Youre in LA man...

The F3 with lets say, a samurai and sLog, will run about $750 a day. RPP or CP's run about $250. all in all its a bit cheaper.

Average red ( thats actually usuable ie has the right accesories) is about $1500 here w/ Red Pro Primes or Super Speed mkI 's.

My panchros go for about $425 a day, and my CP1's get about $250 a day.
Click to expand...

750/day + 250/day = 1K/day

I'm pretty sure I could find a full, properly kitted RED MX in NY for 1K/day without trying.

Now, if it was JUST 700/750/day with everything, that's a different story.
 
Kholi said:
Again, even in post, S-Log needs to be treated the same as RED footage
Click to expand...

Not the same at all. You cut the ProRES 10bit files directly in FCP. If you choose you can apply a LUT in the editor. There is no trans coding and you can cut on a much slower machine. its standard prores. I think alot of confusion arises that people think sLog is some special codec. its what ever you record it in. If youre hard core and want to record it in 444 uncomressed, by all means you can. but to get the benefits, 10bit Prores HQ will do juuuuust fine.
 
TimurCivan said:
Not the same at all. You cut the ProRES 10bit files directly in FCP. If you choose you can apply a LUT in the editor. There is no trans coding and you can cut on a much slower machine. its standard prores. I think alot of confusion arises that people think sLog is some special codec. its what ever you record it in. If youre hard core and want to record it in 444 uncomressed, by all means you can. but to get the benefits, 10bit Prores HQ will do juuuuust fine.
Click to expand...

I know what S-Log is, and you still need to care for the image the same way in post. There's no reason why the same system can't cut ProRes 4444. The only extra step's transcoding, which should--and could, be done daily. Once you hit 2K PR4444 you don't have to look back.

THe extra step is negligible for a project that needs to return a major investment, in which you further ensure by getting better tools for the job. At 300K, that step is just another insurance policy, and with the right producer shouldn't cost you much of anything.
 
For 300k you could afford a good DIT each day to handle RED.

My opinion however is this, at this point, the jump between the F3 and the RED @ 1080p is not significant enough that i feel it isnt worth it to reallocate that few extra thousand bucks in the budget for that one techno crane shot... or that one better art director, or the one better wardorbe styist, or the better DP or Diretor or whatever...

A 300k feature is going to do the festival circuit, then if it get picked up probably go to netflix. The NEXT film you do will probably get 600k-1.5M, then its time to pull out the Epic......
 
TimurCivan said:
For 300k you could afford a good DIT each day to handle RED.
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Indeed, you could. At 300K you should be able to allocate six to eight percent of the budget into a RED MX workflow in production, or ten to twelve percent total into the overall production which includes archiving the data, redundancy, and daily transcodes. We're in competition here, and unless the project calls for multiple cameras or an aesthetic that cannot be achieved with better tools, then why not?

My opinion however is this, at this point, the jump between the F3 and the RED @ 1080p is not significant enough that i feel it isnt worth it to reallocate that few extra thousand bucks in the budget for that one techno crane shot... or that one better art director, or the one better wardorbe styist, or the better DP or Diretor or whatever...
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Opinion respected. I see something completely different when you drop 4/4.5K to 1080/2K. The difference on a projected image and even an HD screen is pretty distinguishable, not just in resolution but overall fidelity, noise included.
A 300k feature is going to do the festival circuit, then if it get picked up probably go to netflix. The NEXT film you do will probably get 600k-1.5M, then its time to pull out the Epic......
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Maybe, or maybe the right producer has ties to what needs to happen to get it to a theatrical outlet?

Keyword(s): producer(s).

Find a good Producer, find a good Line Producer. 300K can be 1.5M in the right hands.
 
Not arguin there man, but alot of indie folks, arent in NY or LA. Finding a great producer may be more difficult. Some times, 300k is 300k.
 
TimurCivan said:
Not arguin there man, but alot of indie folks, arent in NY or LA. Finding a great producer may be more difficult. Some times, 300k is 300k.
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Absolutely. Felt like the Op was asking a hypothetical, so going on that. However, if it was "what's the best use of money on a 300K feature film?"

If I had 300K that I absolutely had to spend, and I couldn't get a pair of MX's for damned-near a steal (near free), as a producer I would say to rethink the approach so that we could use a handful of DSLRs, hire A or B-listers for Cameo's or supporting roles, and drop the rest of the money in front of the camera.

Sub 1.5M, the least of your worries should be what camera you shoot on: they're all good enough below a certain budget where you can't really afford to be picky.
 
Were saying the same thing. I feel the F3 is a good balance of actually useable and great image for the price. Let's not count out the af100 either....
 
I love the way you broke that down Timur. But I would like to comment on one thing:

TimurCivan said:
Thats 21 people, before talent. These are BASIC people. BASIC. You need all of them to make a film.
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Do you really? I mean, in the $10k movie thread there's about 50 pages discussing just this point, what basic really is, and what you really need to make a film of any quality.
 
These are BASIC roles.

Without any of them and you run into trouble, missed continuity, not enough hands, camera department is too slow, noone to park the vans, wardobe issues, make up issues, dis organization, etc... these are the basic roles. Once people start double dipping the performance over the course of a month really starts to drop, and you lose the focus and you dont realise its a problem till the edit.

Its happened to me, and many others i know even on shorts....
 
Although an aside from the original topic, Timur is right. At 300K you should be filling most of these roles. At 75K and below you can't afford to worry about it. at 100 you should have a script supervisor and Some hands. At 300K, most of those roles should be accounted for if possible, aside from on light days.
 
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