FS5: Best all around lens for run and gun

[JPNola]

My .02. The BEST run & gun lens, period, is the the 2/3" ENG Fuji HA13x4.5(or newer version)(or Canon 13x4.5). No other lens like this exists for any other format. There is no equivalent in s35, s16, still lenses, etc. As a matter of fact, a few months ago I went to a get-together Fuji had in-town showing off the MK's and their other cine lenses and I told Tom Fletcher that they need to build this lens for s35. I would probably rip the back pocket out of my shorts, I'd pull my wallet out so fast... 99% of my ENG shooting happens with the 13x4.5(I actually own two). Only God know how many off-the-shoulder interviews, live shots, getting locker room sound and post game interviews it has shot over the years on my cameras. Literally thousands upon thousands. I've owned one going back to my last Betacam.

If you're doing a lot of post game for NFL and NBA, I would forget the Fs5 and go back to a 2/3" ENG camera for that. JP and I had a little discussion about that earlier this year(s35 vs. 2/3" for ENG). We kind of live in the same world, just different markets.

I own a Canon 17-120 and use it on my F55 and C300 and while it is a great lens and I would hate to not have it, it is still NOT that lens.

The HA13x4.5 is magic. Just about every ENG shooter I know has or has had a love affair with that lens. For years it was the lens for jib-work and steadi-cam work on video. It still is to a large extent. It is the holy-grail of 2/3" ENG. And yes, a lens like that is needed for s35mm but the physics make it difficult to produce or else someone would have done it by now.


Here she is adapted for use on an Fs7:

 

[Newsguy]

I have access to that same Fuji. Maybe using the MTF adapter would be a good option. I’ve seen a pair of YouTube videos using it on an FS7 and on a steadicam. You definitely lose the shalllow dof, but I guess it’s as simple as swapping to another lens for sit downs or controlled shoots.

 

[cyvideo]

A+1 Run&gun
Agreed. I have the 13 an 18 and 22 x and I find for many jobs an XDCam disc camera is still hard to beat, especially for TV work as down here it is almost the de-facto must have kit. Producer gives you disc and you just hand them back at the end of the shoot. As you say for shooting sport, entertainment, general news pressers, red carpets etc they are almost unbeatable. Imagine having an 11-143mm fast parfocal on your S35 sensor. It would weigh a ton and cost a mint. I get more bookings for this type of camera than anything else I use. The modern 2/3" cam has evolved by necessity to become a very versatile tool that can cover a wide range of shootings conditions. In many of those conditions it is almost impossible to beat for sheer speed of framing, focusing, exposing and re-framing on the fly. As regards the servos I know of nothing for one man shooting that comes close to these highly evolved lenses. Fast aperture, parfocal, constant aperture (most of the way) and massive zoom range with variable servo control. What's not to like about them. That's why I decided to get the MTF S16 B4 and PL adapters for the FS7. Just makes the FS7 just that bit more flexible. There is no doubt that being able to shoot LOG with long ENG lenses for certain jobs gives the camera just that little bit more capability. I still own and use an EX3 with an ACM21 2/3" lens adapter for certain jobs like conferences where I need he reach and where two large capacity cards can cover hours of uninterrupted shooting, as boring as it may be.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

 

[cyvideo]

I have access to that same Fuji. Maybe using the MTF adapter would be a good option. t I guess it’s as simple as swapping to another lens for sit downs or controlled shoots.

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. I just leave the MTF S16 on the B4 lens and just switch to a prime or short zoom for controlled shoots and interviews if a shallower DOF look is required. The other good thing about the MTF S16 is that you only lose .7 of a stop which is no bigge on the Sony S35 sensors.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

 

[Run&Gun]

I have access to that same Fuji. Maybe using the MTF adapter would be a good option. I’ve seen a pair of YouTube videos using it on an FS7 and on a steadicam. You definitely lose the shalllow dof, but I guess it’s as simple as swapping to another lens for sit downs or controlled shoots.

Yep. That is definetly a good way to go. I have the IBE HDx35 adapter for my F55 and C300. It paid for itself last year. I was able to use my 13x4.5 on my C300 for some Para Olympic cycling pieces for NBC right after I got it. It was mostly vehicle-to-vehicle(bicycle) shooting. I would have never been able to shoot as quickly and efficiently as I did with still or conventional cine lenses, because I would have never had the zoom range in one lens where I could be super wide hanging the camera literally inches above the road and then seconds later shooting tight detail shots.

I've also used my 22x for football stories and racing. It's great having the flexibility of a long zoom range ENG lens for action and fast primes for interviews.

Yes, there are sacrifices using 2/3" lenses on s35 sensors, but sometimes it's the best way to get the shots you need. And not everything needs to be shot with the super shallow DoF look, anyway... ; )

 

[LennyLevy]

Do you lose resolution just by going to center scan?
Also do you guys have other less expensive lenses to recommend for the purpose. That is still a very expensive lens. When I've used it on B4 cameras BTW I found the wide end to be cool but dangerously wide for ordinary use an I would have to constantly remind myself not to shoot that wide. 6 to 8mm was more comfortable.

 

[cyvideo]

You lose resolution in as much that the center crop function is exactly that a 'crop' as opposed to a down sampled image from the full S35 sensor. The loss is absolutely minimal and I wondered why.

After using MTF’s B4 to Super 16 adapter on a Sony FS7 a couple of us were quite surprised at the quality and resolution of the 1920 HD image. We expected less. Why did it look better than we expected? Generally speaking a 1920 HD image after being demosaiced (Debayered) is considered to have a resolution of about 1.5K. The image we were getting looked to be a very decent full HD image. This prompted me to do a bit of investigation as to what we were actually looking at. Roughly this is what I discovered.

Sony’s Super 16 crop sensor dimensions are 12.7mm x 6.75mm for 2178 x 1148 which results in a diagonal of 14.5mm, a fair bit larger, 32% larger than the 11mm diagonal of a 1920 HD sensor. 2178 x 1148 gives us total of 2,500,344, a resolution of approximately 2.5K.

The generally accepted figure is a Bayer sensor loses about 20% of its resolution after demosaicing. For example a 4K sensor has a resolution of 3.2 K a 2K sensor has a resolution of 1.6K and a 1920 sensor has a resolution of 1.5K.

Based on Sony’s Super 16 figures of 2178 x 1148 the centre crop function results in a 2.5K crop. One could then argue the following. After applying a 20% loss in resolution after demosaicing the image produced is in the order of 2,000,275. Very close to 2K in other words.

Following these deductions leads me to the conclusion that the Super 16 Centre Crop function in the Sony FS7 / F5 / F55 after demosaicing can and does actually actually deliver a TRUE full resolution 1920 x 1080 HD image.

Is this correct? Can anyone point out any major flaw in my calculations here? Happily stand corrected if I’m off the mark.

I may be totally wrong but I don’t think so. Anyway always curious as to the why.

Incidentally Doug Jensen did a very good piece on the center crop mode using prime lenses. Worth a look:

https://vimeo.com/82808203

Sony’s Super 16 sensor crop dimensions were obtained here:



http://blog.abelcine.com/2014/02/13/using-super16-lenses-on-the-sony-f55-in-2k-center-scan-mode/

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

 

[Run&Gun]

Do you lose resolution just by going to center scan?
Also do you guys have other less expensive lenses to recommend for the purpose. That is still a very expensive lens. When I've used it on B4 cameras BTW I found the wide end to be cool but dangerously wide for ordinary use an I would have to constantly remind myself not to shoot that wide. 6 to 8mm was more comfortable.

New, yes, they are still very expensive lenses($30k+), but you can find them on eBay for insanely low prices. There are several on there right now for ~$4500. Hell, I bought my second one from a seller I know on eBay about four years ago for around $14K and I was ecstatic that I got it for that.

You can also easily set electronic stops/limits on the front and back-end to limit your zoom range. This only applies to zooming with the servo, though.

 

[Donny 123]

New, yes, they are still very expensive lenses($30k+), but you can find them on eBay for insanely low prices. There are several on there right now for ~$4500. Hell, I bought my second one from a seller I know on eBay about four years ago for around $14K and I was ecstatic that I got it for that.

You can also easily set electronic stops/limits on the front and back-end to limit your zoom range. This only applies to zooming with the servo, though.

Yes you can get them very cheap.. I had that lens and could hardly give it away... waited a long time for a buyer.. I still have the abacus B4 /PL adaptor ..just in case I need it..

 

[Run&Gun]

Yes you can get them very cheap.. I had that lens and could hardly give it away... waited a long time for a buyer.. I still have the abacus B4 /PL adaptor ..just in case I need it..

Crazy, isn't it? New, a super wide or long(22x+) 2/3" HD ENG lens is well over $30K, but essentially worthless on the used market. I've almost pulled the trigger TWICE on a second long lens, the HA23x7.6 on eBay. Saw one, a year or so ago for WELL under $20K and then again a few months ago(two of them, but all three from the same seller I know) for something in the $10k range. And even crazier when you look at what were expensive and very nice SD ENG lenses in the $20K+ arena that are selling for a few hundred dollars.

Earlier this year, I saw a very low hour, IMMACULATE, looked like it had barely been out-of the-box D600 for a few hundred dollars on eBay. I almost bought it just to put on the shelf in the office.

 

[LennyLevy]

Interesting but still I guess the problem with going this route is investing in a lens that limits you to HD. I guess it depends your clients. Wouldn't work for me.

 

[Donny 123]

There are optical adaptors that will "blow up" the image to fit a s35m sensor .. but they are expensive..heavy and eat light.. so you end up with a DoF about the same 2/3 anyway.. but they have the range.. or do you mean image quality wise in 4K..?. an all in one ENG style zoom for the fs7/f5/55 still pretty much remains the CN7.. 17-120.. 17-240 in HD.. personally I dont find 20mm wide enough on the other cheaper fujinon 20-120.. even 17 is pushing it but do able.. its the wide end thats the problem with all these zooms, and minimum focus..for doc work anyway..IMHO

 

[Newsguy]

I just wanted to update you all since you’ve been very helpful with your suggestions. I was able to find an open box version of the 18-110 for a good price through an amazon seller. There is a catch though, when I saw their nearly flawless reviews I called them to make sure the lens wasn’t gray market. After placing the order, I was still curious so I looked the company up through some third party business review sites. UH OH. The reviews were almost unanimously negative for the company, the complaints range from lenses coming without end caps, to claiming that a product was US and arriving gray market.

The name of the company is 6th ave electronics. I found it odd that their amazon rating was stellar, but on the ratings sites they’re universally recognized as a fraudulent company doing shady things. Here’s hoping the lens works out, but I’m bracing for the worse.

 

[Run&Gun]

There are optical adaptors that will "blow up" the image to fit a s35m sensor .. but they are expensive..heavy and eat light.. so you end up with a DoF about the same 2/3 anyway.. but they have the range.. or do you mean image quality wise in 4K..?. an all in one ENG style zoom for the fs7/f5/55 still pretty much remains the CN7.. 17-120.. 17-240 in HD.. personally I dont find 20mm wide enough on the other cheaper fujinon 20-120.. even 17 is pushing it but do able.. its the wide end thats the problem with all these zooms, and minimum focus..for doc work anyway..IMHO

I have the IBE HDx35 adapter sold by Abel Cine. It blows the image up to cover the full s35 image sensor. They are not cheap(~$5k) and they'll cost you ~2.5 stops of light. I have never used it recording 4K, only HD, so I can't say how much of a difference(if any) there is. Yes, there is a difference between HD ENG lenses and native lenses, but the image is still good, especially when you weigh it against the range and convenience you get.

I've used the 20-120 a few times on a client's Amira for production shooting and it's a nice lens(liked it more than I thought I would), but 20 isn't wide enough for ENG or doc. 17 just barely... I'd love to have 15 or 12(or 11.5), but...

Newsguy, hopefully with it being through Amazon, you will be protected if there is something funny with the deal and you won't get hosed.

 

[Donny 123]

I have the IBE HDx35 adapter sold by Abel Cine. It blows the image up to cover the full s35 image sensor. They are not cheap(~$5k) and they'll cost you ~2.5 stops of light. I have never used it recording 4K, only HD, so I can't say how much of a difference(if any) there is. Yes, there is a difference between HD ENG lenses and native lenses, but the image is still good, especially when you weigh it against the range and convenience you get.

I've used the 20-120 a few times on a client's Amira for production shooting and it's a nice lens(liked it more than I thought I would), but 20 isn't wide enough for ENG or doc. 17 just barely... I'd love to have 15 or 12(or 11.5), but...

Newsguy, hopefully with it being through Amazon, you will be protected if there is something funny with the deal and you won't get hosed.

agreed .. I often wish the Cn7 was actually 15-110.. wouldn't make alot of difference on the long end but be very help full on the wide..

 

[Afterglow]

So the MTF B4 adapter is worth the money? I've been so close to getting this a few times by way of turning my F3 into a more ENG camera.

I've been using nikons and nikon-mount lenses and was looking at the Sigma 24-105 Art lens as a way of extending the reach of my standard 28-70 Tokina ATX. Quite apart from the f4, it also focuses the opposite way to Nikon.

So, I started considering the Nikon 24-120 ED f4 (not the previous versions which are garbage) which aren't that expensive and are said to be sharp. Anyone know or use this?