Beginner Production Sound Kit - Yeas or Nays?

M

Max H.

Member
OK all. Post audio guy here looking to learn the ways of production audio. What follows is my first attempt at putting together a budget sound kit, and I'm looking for any advice regarding pitfalls therein. Now of course I'd love to get loaded up with Zaxcom and Lectrosonics, but that ain't possible.

Many posts have been helpful, but I'm hoping to get specific advice on the following gear combinations:

Package from Trew: http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=671&cat=66&page=1

Package includes NTG-2 and accessories, Senn G3 with Lav, internal K-Tek aluminum boom. I will obviously have to get another G3 wireless kit, and am thinking about getting Tram lavs. I want to upgrade to a 416 shotgun in the future as well.


Mixer: Perhaps a PSC Alphamix or Azden FMX42 (Looking to mix 4 channels down to 2 if needed. 3-channel mixers seem limiting).

Recorder: Zoom H4n (for now).

Bag: Petrol Deca Eargonizer Small.

I'm mainly concerned with the NTG-2/H4n combination, but a mixer in between seems like it will resolve any conflict. Then there is the fact that I have to bypass the H4n's preamps...

Thanks for your time helping this n00b out.
 
The kit from Trew looks like a very nice starting place. You said you want to upgrade in the future to a Sennheiser 416. If you consider an NTG-3 now instead of the NTG-2, you'll have a mic that you can keep and not have to worry about the 416.

As for mixers, the AlphaMix has been discontinued. Don't waste your money on anything with the name "Azden" on it. Just... just don't.

3-channel mixers are only limiting if you are working projects that need more than three channels. The Sound Devices 302 is a great mixer to have. If you need more channels, take a look around for a used 442. There's honestly not much in the Azden's price range that can compare to the 302 or 442. Maybe the PSC DV ProMix. Maybe...

The Zoom H4n is undercutting everything else you're trying to do. It's impossible to completely bypass the Zoom's pre-amps, though you can minimize how much work they do. You might look instead at the Fostex FR2-LE. That plus a 302 would be a very, very nice combination.
 
Not a bad kit, agreed that if you could get the NTG3 it would save the need to upgrade later. Plus, the NTG3 can work both inside and outside. Ideally, you get a interior mic, but NTG3 has been used for interior shots with good effectiveness. You may want to get better wind protection at some point. If you are just starting do you really need a lav? Many people have gotten great audio with a boom only. Not sure if your budget was tight or not. An NTG3 with an SD mixer would be pretty sweet.
 
I would second the recommendation that you skip the NTG-2 and go straight to the NTG-3. You probably would have no reason to upgrade to the 416 later if you do that. I appreciate that it "breaks" the Trew Audio kit if you buy a different shotgun, but you can get the same components separately for no more money if you shop carefully.

Another recorder to consider instead of the H4N would be the Tascam HD-P2. Although a slightly aging design and much larger than the Zoom, it is very well laid out for practical operation in the field and in a bag, and the quality of the preamps is way better.

Another vote against the Azden. It's way below the quality of the other components. I don't have a great recommendation for a modestly priced 4-channel field mixer right now, and I'm in the market for one myself. Even used SD442's are pretty expensive. I've pretty much decided to compromise on a SD302 for the moment, although I share your opinion that three channels are inadequate for my work often enough that it will be an annoyance.

Your kit contains nothing between the directional shotgun and the omni lavs. The Audio-Technica 4053b hypercardioid gets a lot of good reviews here as a fine mic for indoor booming. You might consider adding that to fill in the gap in your microphone coverage. Another addition would be the plug-in transmitter to match the Sennheiser G3 system -- for the mics you're planning on, you'd need the version that can provide phantom power, which is the SKP500.

If you do handheld interviews as well as boom and lavalier work, you could consider a Sennheiser MD46 or Electro-Voice RE50 (I strongly prefer the cardioid MD46 myself, and it also makes a good self-defense weapon if you get in a tough spot out in the field. :-)

- Greg
 
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Another post guy here. I do a bit of production work and the question you need to answer is what kind of projects are you going to be working on?
I do only small docs and low budget narrative films and big multitrack recording usually getting a bunch of board feeds - think conferences with multi translators.
I don't own a wireless, and I almost never use a shotgun. If I were out side more I would be using the shotgun a lot more.

So will you have a boom man? Are you going to need a bunch of wireless? If your live mixing then you can't be booming.

I would upgrade the recorder before getting another wireless. Something you can sling over the shoulder and has big buttons and a clear display. I would also stick a hyper in there before another wireless and depending maybe before the first wireless.

My main ENG type rig is a hyper in a zep on a pole going to a MixPre feeding a Marantz PMD671. I would probably go with the Tascam today.

For FX it's the same rig but I'm usually using a cardioid pair. I'll also haul along the hyper and a contact mic plus whatever else seems right for the job.

For the big feeds I'm using BoomRecorder on a Mac Book Pro being fed with an Alesis mixer with a firewire out.

I would also say that in this day and age if your going with more than two inputs you should be recording more than two tracks. If for no other reason than to CYA. You can pick up a recorder from Tascam that can record eight tracks for not a lot (relatively speaking).

Think of it this way. When you get a two track recording that is premixed and there is a problem, say one wireless is getting hit, and you can't fix it because it's premixed what do you tell the director? Something like "I sure wished they had recorded discrete". Now what do you think the director is going to say about you when the next director asks? Nice guy but he kind of messed up my tracks.

traditionally it was all mixed down to mono but those were different times and there really isn't a good reason, that I can think of anyway, not to have discrete tracks for each feed. I mean $$$ would be a reason but your buying extra wireless so that kind of goes out the window.
 
OK Azden is out, and NTG-3 is probably in. Maybe I can call and substitute it in the kit.

I'm really hoping to work with the H4n, as I already own it. What's the advantage to the Fostex recorder? Better preamps? It's still only a 2-channel recorder.

I think I'm confused about how pros handle channels in their recorders/mixers. Seems like ideally you'd want at least 4 separate channels in each. For now perhaps I will have to stick to a 2 channel recorder and a 3 channel mixer and do boom on the left and lavs on the right...

PSC Promix 3 mixer perhaps?

I'd like to iron out a decent kit for $3000 if possible.
 
The FP33 is a decent mixer and has been the mainstay of ENG crews for many years. On paper, its features, specifications and price are all very similar to the Sound Devices 302. But the SD is a much slicker package to my fingers, eyes and ears. It is only about half the weight of the Shure but is built more substantially. The controls feel better to the touch and it gives off a vibe of being much more durable. There is a harshness to the FP33s preamps that I just don't hear in the SD302, although the noise, frequency response and distortion specs are supposed to be darned near the same. The mechanical meters on the Shure feel like a throwback to an earlier era compared to the SD302's versatile LED metering.

I've been a huge Shure fanboy over the years (and being good friends with the company president's daughter for a while probably had something to do with that), but their electronics line has never been quite as strong as their transducer products (microphones and phono cartridges). Since there's no meaningful difference in the price, I don't see any reason not to choose the SD if you're looking for a good three-channel mixer.

- Greg
 
Max H. said:
I'm really hoping to work with the H4n, as I already own it. What's the advantage to the Fostex recorder? Better preamps? It's still only a 2-channel recorder.
Click to expand...

I'm glad I returned my H4n last year after having it for a couple of days... Its feature set is extremely attractive to anyone who wants a pocket recorder, and it looks sexy too. But I think H4n is best suited for impromptu/informal recordings, such as for journalists to record memos and for musicians to record rehearsals. When pristine audio recording is desirable or required, certain recorders at this price range like Sony M10 (cheaper) are noticeably much better. Fostex FR-2LE's overall feature set is probably not that sexy, but it is a very quiet recorder:

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html

A solid mixer/preamp + a low-noise recorder will allow you to take full advantage of a higher-end field microphone. Otherwise you might just want to go with a cheap mic and cut down your overall expenses, as higher-noise-floor recordings are more likely to offset many benefits paid for more expensive mics. IMHO, at the time, MixPre-D + M10 beats just about every standalone audio recorder under $1000 (including my DR-680 when used without a separate preamp or mixer) for portability and audio quality. Unless in a studio environment, I don' think the difference in noise level between M10 and other inexpensive but better recorders (FR-2LE, DR-680, Sony D50, etc) can make a noticeable difference in recorded audio.

To me, having a solid preamp/mixer is much more important than having a best possible recorder, as a good preamp/mixer will make just about any recorder sound better (to a certain extent). Although you probably can't return your H4n for a full refund now, no reason to worry about it until after you have got a decent preamp/mixer.
 
Here's the rig I currently carry:

PSC Alphamix running channel outputs into Tascam DR-680 using the power distro of my Alphamix to provide external power to the Tascam.

Sennheiser ME-80/K3 in a Rycote Wind Protection System with lyre suspension.

A pair of Avantone CK-1s with hyper, cardioid, and omni caps and Rycote Softie.

Gitzo Boom pole

3 channels of Sennheiser G3 with Tram TR-50 and OST 801 lavs.

M-Audio IE-30 in-ear monitors

Beta Cable with Breakaway.

When I'm sending to camera I send boom to the left, lavs to the right.

By the way, my Alphamix was built in 2003 and still going strong. It has been to PSC once for cleaning and servicing. It really is a very good mixer. I'm looking to sell it soon for a used SD 442 only becuase I'd like to have the SD channel limiters in line with the ISO outs feeding the DR-680.

As long as you put a mixer in front of your H4n, you'll get acceptable audio. Alone, the H4n simply does not have enough clean gain for some of the lower output microphones.

Max H. said:
OK Azden is out, and NTG-3 is probably in. Maybe I can call and substitute it in the kit.

I'm really hoping to work with the H4n, as I already own it. What's the advantage to the Fostex recorder? Better preamps? It's still only a 2-channel recorder.

I think I'm confused about how pros handle channels in their recorders/mixers. Seems like ideally you'd want at least 4 separate channels in each. For now perhaps I will have to stick to a 2 channel recorder and a 3 channel mixer and do boom on the left and lavs on the right...

PSC Promix 3 mixer perhaps?

I'd like to iron out a decent kit for $3000 if possible.
Click to expand...
 
I'm curious about the Avantone CK-1s. I haven't heard it myself and its hard to find reviews. Are you using it much for dialogue?
 
Yeah I used a rented Alphamix on a shoot once and thought it worked well. I might be interested if you're selling.

Would pairing an SD302 with an H4n be ridiculous? It is a pretty attractive mixer. Maybe I can live with 3 channels since I'm only recording to a 2-track...
 
Max H. said:
Would pairing an SD302 with an H4n be ridiculous? It is a pretty attractive mixer. Maybe I can live with 3 channels since I'm only recording to a 2-track...
Click to expand...

Not ridiculous. That will certainly get you better results out of the H4n, but one reason you'll hear about the FR2-LE, HD-P2, and DR-680 over something like the H4n is because the form factor for handheld recorders is simply not bag-friendly. Once you add a good mixer and an audio bag, the recorder becomes really clumsy. There's no good place to put it where you have view of the display screen and access to the controls. The bag-friendly recorders have better tactile control, and can easily sit in a big next to a mixer and be visible and accessible.

A three-channel mixer and two-track recorder combo is pretty versatile. It really depends on how many mics you think you'll need for your kind of work. When you get into four or more channels, it's better to have a mixer with direct outs along with a multi-track recorder.

Max H. said:
Another thought- are there many "one man bands" out there, i.e. boom op and mixer all in one?
Click to expand...

Plenty. This is pretty much standard for news-magazine/lifestyle programming, reality TV, and ENG, and is very common on smaller indie productions.
 
I use the CK-1 for indoor dialog and recording ambience and sound fx. It doesn't have a high output and think it would be weak if used directly with an H4n or DR-100 but with a mixer it works fine. I ended up buying a second one for X-Y recordings. I find the high frequencies more pleasant than some of the other chinese capsules (specifically, Rode). Maybe it's my ears, but I find most chinese mics to have a shrillness around 2-4 khz, and for whatever reason, this mic is very smooth in that range. And considering I bought my second one six months after the first, and they both exhibit this type of sound, I'd say it's a characteristic of the mic. But again, it needs a mixer to get levels appropriate for dialog.

Mitch.Kear said:
I'm curious about the Avantone CK-1s. I haven't heard it myself and its hard to find reviews. Are you using it much for dialogue?
Click to expand...
 
This is typically how I work, but love it when I can get a boom op who's interested and will PAY ATTENTION during a take. IF you're going to go at it alone, a harness is a necessity. Having a heavy bag with mixer, recorder, and wireless hanging around the neck kills the back after 3 or days.

Max H. said:
Another thought- are there many "one man bands" out there, i.e. boom op and mixer all in one?
Click to expand...
 
You could do a lot with a SD302 mixer and use it in a pinch in all types of fields. Look for a used one, new would be $1300.
Tascam DR680 for it's price and versatility factor, at most $800

MKH416, but a NTG3 is a lot cheaper. Buy used or new for $1000. Add a hyper when you get a chance later.

Rycote S300/S330 for wind protection $280.

Boom $200. Cable, headphones you already have or make yourself? Forget the wireless.

It's around the ballpark, but would certainly help you in a lot of situations. If interested, ring me for this Saturday, not my gig but I'm helping a good friend out. as 1st boom.
 
Thanks for your replies, especially Alan and Alex. Now I'm aiming for the following:
Trew audio package with NTG-3 instead.
Used SD302 to mix to my H4n.
Petrol bag and harness.

I'm curious why some of you are recommending to skip the wireless? Too far out of my price range?
Also, how often do you need an 8-track recorder? Seems like you would need an 8-track mixer as well to make that functional...
 
Max H. said:
I'm curious why some of you are recommending to skip the wireless? Too far out of my price range?
Click to expand...

Wireless is all well and good, but it's not a "use-it-every-time" piece of gear... unless you're running ENG, in which case it can be a daily tool. If you can run a boom, run a boom. You'll get much better results. A wireless transmission can fail in ways that a hard-wired mic cannot.

The G3 is a great system, and kills anything else in the sub-$1000/channel range. It's still a system with more limitations than the $1000+/channel wireless systems. But this is less about price range and more about what you really need to get started. The money you're looking at investing in wireless could be put into better start-up gear.

Plus, if you get to a project where you really need wireless, rent. You can rent some pretty high-end wireless systems for very little money per day. If you eventually see such a need that you feel like purchasing is more logical, at least you've bought yourself some time and had enough paying gigs to offset the purchase.

Max H. said:
Also, how often do you need an 8-track recorder? Seems like you would need an 8-track mixer as well to make that functional...
Click to expand...

If you're running 6 mics, 6 tracks is a great idea: keep control over the mix in post. The DR680, by the way, can only record 6 iso tracks*. Tracks 7 and 8 are actually a stereo mix of the others, so you get your reference mix and still have the iso channels if you need them later. (*Of note: you can record 8 individual tracks, but 7 and 8 come from the S/PDIF digital inputs... meaning you have to have external hardware to pre-amp and convert the two additional mics.)

As for the need for a mixer, there are high-end mixers such as the Sound Devices 442 and 552 that offer direct outputs from each input, allowing you to feed a multi-track recorder. Many recorders, however, come with their own pre-amps built in and often have mixer functions included. The DR680 has 6 mic pre-amps: 4 via XLR input, and two via 1/4" TRS input. The SD 788t has 8 XLR ins with pre-amps.

Mixing on the DR680 is a pain, as there's only one rotary control that must be assigned to any given input to make changes. It's fine as a multi-track recorder, but lousy for mixing. Higher-end recorders like the 788t come with 8 rotary pots for individual control of each input.
 
I think I may split the difference and get the wireless in the kit, and hold off on another until I really need it.

You'd still need a mixer even for the 788t though right? What I like about the 302 is that it has trim and volume for each channel. I've seen some mixers with only volume faders, but it seems like in some cases you would only be making a clipped signal quieter. Please correct if I'm wrong on that signal flow.
 
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