BBC: "Will 8K be the ultimate TV screen?"
- Thread starter Steve Castle
- Start date
KINOKS
Well-known member
I wouldn't mind a better pair of eyes. Ones that don't need glasess and that have a decent zoom range would be just fine. Isn't nobody annoyed that their eyes are stuck at 50mm?
Egg Born Son
Veteran
Zoom eyes would be great. You could do the cartoon eye thing when you see a pretty girl walk by. With 22.2 speakers you could have the accompanying sound effects ready too.
They did an experiment with rats. Two buttons - one button activated food, the other activated an electrode in the brain that stimulated an orgasm. They starved to death. (I read this somewhere in print, ergo I reserve the right to choose to believe it)
They did an experiment with rats. Two buttons - one button activated food, the other activated an electrode in the brain that stimulated an orgasm. They starved to death. (I read this somewhere in print, ergo I reserve the right to choose to believe it)
KINOKS
Well-known member
They did an experiment with rats. Two buttons - one button activated food, the other activated an electrode in the brain that stimulated an orgasm. They starved to death. (I read this somewhere in print, ergo I reserve the right to choose to believe it)
Jaak Panksepp did lot's of experiments on this topic. There was an article about him in Discover magazine a while ago...
Egg Born Son
Veteran
While it might be said such research has no point, if people remember the experiment and the results (ratings for science) can it truly be a waste of time? Some swedes did an experiment with eye tracking glasses to prove women spend more time looking at genitals than men. Nerds. Proves nothing, we may look half as long but that's because we're more efficient.
Hidef1080
Well-known member
They did an experiment with rats. Two buttons - one button activated food, the other activated an electrode in the brain that stimulated an orgasm....
Where is this "button" you speak of?
Not for me but a friend of mine wants to know...
Nektonic
Veteran
I think Battlestar Galactica already covered this.
Brother Cavil: In all your travels, have you ever seen a star go supernova?
Ellen Tigh: No.
Brother Cavil: No? Well, I have. I saw a star explode and send out the building blocks of the Universe. Other stars, other planets and eventually other life. A supernova! Creation itself! I was there. I wanted to see it and be part of the moment. And you know how I perceived one of the most glorious events in the universe? With these ridiculous gelatinous orbs in my skull! With eyes designed to perceive only a tiny fraction of the EM spectrum. With ears designed only to hear vibrations in the air.
Ellen Tigh: The five of us designed you to be as human as possible.
Brother Cavil: I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! And I want to - I want to smell dark matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to - I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid limiting spoken language! But I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws! And feel the wind of a supernova flowing over me! I'm a machine! And I can know much more! I can experience so much more. But I'm trapped in this absurd body! And why? Because my five creators thought that God wanted it that way!
Brother Cavil: In all your travels, have you ever seen a star go supernova?
Ellen Tigh: No.
Brother Cavil: No? Well, I have. I saw a star explode and send out the building blocks of the Universe. Other stars, other planets and eventually other life. A supernova! Creation itself! I was there. I wanted to see it and be part of the moment. And you know how I perceived one of the most glorious events in the universe? With these ridiculous gelatinous orbs in my skull! With eyes designed to perceive only a tiny fraction of the EM spectrum. With ears designed only to hear vibrations in the air.
Ellen Tigh: The five of us designed you to be as human as possible.
Brother Cavil: I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! And I want to - I want to smell dark matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to - I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid limiting spoken language! But I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws! And feel the wind of a supernova flowing over me! I'm a machine! And I can know much more! I can experience so much more. But I'm trapped in this absurd body! And why? Because my five creators thought that God wanted it that way!
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Forget 8K 200 inch TVs....I want the flying cars they promised us!!
No, you don't. People have enough trouble navigating roads.
Steve Castle
Well-known member
Updated OP a little bit of research I did on this subject:
Looking into this a bit more. There are several long-term trends that NHK seems to be predicting:
TV screen sizes will become much larger: This is natural. When TV screens were first released they were merely 10" large in the 1930s, grew to 14" during the 1950s, then gradually 17, 19, 21" during the 1970s. By the 1990s, screen sizes grew to an average of 17" and then above 30" as the CRT approached its maximum size [Source, DOC file]. Today the average screen size topping 4-", and 60" screens are becoming dirt cheap (a few weeks ago they were in the $600 range [source]. Larger screens are becoming cheaper. 4K TV sets are coming out on 84", but eventually we should expect 100"+ screens to become approachable financially over the next couple decades. As presumably, they want 8K to be a broadcast standard to last decades, they clearly want to make a standard that can accommodate massive screen sizes (the 8K demos have been shown on a 145" screen).
Flexible displays will facilitate cheaper and larger displays: NHK seems to think that flexible displays will be the next great display technology. Instead of having massive screens made of glass, a roll-able screens, more like a retractable projection screen can be installed in the house. The benefits being a larger screen can fit in your living room, it can be hidden away when not used, and more importantly they will be cheaper to make, stock, and transport. Flexible displays mean that heavy & expensive glass substrates can be replaced by economical polymer-based substrates. Cheaper plastic screens, not flexibility, is why Samsung plans to release one within the next year. Then there are logistics, right now, large screens that can weigh dozens of pounds are shipped from Asia, stocked in a warehouse and shipped to a retail location like Best Buy, Costco, Walmart, etc and then have to be transported to your home. A significant undertaking as size and weight increases, however, having a large screen rolled up like a projection screen means the display can be affordably shipped and stocked.
NHK wants 8K TVs to have 100° horizontal viewing angles: Currently, 1080p HDTV is around 30° viewing angle, and 4K will be 55° viewing angle . The prediction is as the access to larger screens increase, audiences viewing distance will remain the same as the dimensions of your home isn't as easily changed as a TV. Meaning that audiences will be better positioned to tell resolution differences. 8K by default is designed with cinema-style viewing angles in mind.
NHK believes that 8K/super-high resolution gives a 3-dimensional quality to an image: In many respects, its a large-screen version of Apple's Retina Display. Already, we have 5" screens with 1080p hitting the market (431 PPI). The same company has made an extreme version of this to test if you you can notice the difference of even finer resolution (651 PPI). NHK's logic is that super-high resolution imparts a 3D quality to an image, when mated with a 100° viewing angle will be more immersive than 3D, which is why they aren't working on a 3D broadcasting standard. AVSforum has a non-scientific simulation of 2K vs 4K vs 8K, it might be worth a look.
10/12-bit 8K@120fps is now a ITU standard: [Source]Several weeks ago, ITU made 8K a standard, rec.2020. MPEGLA will also make their next codec, H.265 HEVC codec, supports 8K resolutions and should be finalized in the next couple months. This new codec should also fit larger amounts of data in a smaller file size. NHK predicts this will mean 8K can be delivered in around 100 Mbps to the consumer. The current wired/wireless goal is 1Gbps for most homes by 2020. LTE Advanced has the goal-post of 1Gpbs as well (LTE means long-term evolution). Meaning, 8K video should be realistically deliverable in the next decade.
2020 and Beyond: NHK wants 8K to be the be-all end-all of standards. They want it to be a standard that can last not years, but DECADES. They don't want to be upgrading all the fundamental equipment some point in the future. Technology will get better, and they wan the standard to not be outgrown by the technology itself. Which is why we have some pretty crazy specs, like 22.2 surround sound. They want these pie-in-the-sky standards to be the end-point, a goal post, for consumer TV technology.
They want it so that every generation of displays, of cameras, of sound systems still can't catch the quality of 8K. By making the bar high, this actually helps device makers as each new device should have a noticeable leap in quality as the video itself should surpass the ability of new devices for a long time to come. It gives a very clear upgrade path which they hope will spur consumer spending on new devices.
Looking into this a bit more. There are several long-term trends that NHK seems to be predicting:
TV screen sizes will become much larger: This is natural. When TV screens were first released they were merely 10" large in the 1930s, grew to 14" during the 1950s, then gradually 17, 19, 21" during the 1970s. By the 1990s, screen sizes grew to an average of 17" and then above 30" as the CRT approached its maximum size [Source, DOC file]. Today the average screen size topping 4-", and 60" screens are becoming dirt cheap (a few weeks ago they were in the $600 range [source]. Larger screens are becoming cheaper. 4K TV sets are coming out on 84", but eventually we should expect 100"+ screens to become approachable financially over the next couple decades. As presumably, they want 8K to be a broadcast standard to last decades, they clearly want to make a standard that can accommodate massive screen sizes (the 8K demos have been shown on a 145" screen).
Flexible displays will facilitate cheaper and larger displays: NHK seems to think that flexible displays will be the next great display technology. Instead of having massive screens made of glass, a roll-able screens, more like a retractable projection screen can be installed in the house. The benefits being a larger screen can fit in your living room, it can be hidden away when not used, and more importantly they will be cheaper to make, stock, and transport. Flexible displays mean that heavy & expensive glass substrates can be replaced by economical polymer-based substrates. Cheaper plastic screens, not flexibility, is why Samsung plans to release one within the next year. Then there are logistics, right now, large screens that can weigh dozens of pounds are shipped from Asia, stocked in a warehouse and shipped to a retail location like Best Buy, Costco, Walmart, etc and then have to be transported to your home. A significant undertaking as size and weight increases, however, having a large screen rolled up like a projection screen means the display can be affordably shipped and stocked.
NHK wants 8K TVs to have 100° horizontal viewing angles: Currently, 1080p HDTV is around 30° viewing angle, and 4K will be 55° viewing angle . The prediction is as the access to larger screens increase, audiences viewing distance will remain the same as the dimensions of your home isn't as easily changed as a TV. Meaning that audiences will be better positioned to tell resolution differences. 8K by default is designed with cinema-style viewing angles in mind.
NHK believes that 8K/super-high resolution gives a 3-dimensional quality to an image: In many respects, its a large-screen version of Apple's Retina Display. Already, we have 5" screens with 1080p hitting the market (431 PPI). The same company has made an extreme version of this to test if you you can notice the difference of even finer resolution (651 PPI). NHK's logic is that super-high resolution imparts a 3D quality to an image, when mated with a 100° viewing angle will be more immersive than 3D, which is why they aren't working on a 3D broadcasting standard. AVSforum has a non-scientific simulation of 2K vs 4K vs 8K, it might be worth a look.
10/12-bit 8K@120fps is now a ITU standard: [Source]Several weeks ago, ITU made 8K a standard, rec.2020. MPEGLA will also make their next codec, H.265 HEVC codec, supports 8K resolutions and should be finalized in the next couple months. This new codec should also fit larger amounts of data in a smaller file size. NHK predicts this will mean 8K can be delivered in around 100 Mbps to the consumer. The current wired/wireless goal is 1Gbps for most homes by 2020. LTE Advanced has the goal-post of 1Gpbs as well (LTE means long-term evolution). Meaning, 8K video should be realistically deliverable in the next decade.
2020 and Beyond: NHK wants 8K to be the be-all end-all of standards. They want it to be a standard that can last not years, but DECADES. They don't want to be upgrading all the fundamental equipment some point in the future. Technology will get better, and they wan the standard to not be outgrown by the technology itself. Which is why we have some pretty crazy specs, like 22.2 surround sound. They want these pie-in-the-sky standards to be the end-point, a goal post, for consumer TV technology.
They want it so that every generation of displays, of cameras, of sound systems still can't catch the quality of 8K. By making the bar high, this actually helps device makers as each new device should have a noticeable leap in quality as the video itself should surpass the ability of new devices for a long time to come. It gives a very clear upgrade path which they hope will spur consumer spending on new devices.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Yeah, don't text and FLY!! YIKES!!!
Nektonic
Veteran
Call me crazy, but I'd love to have one of those Esper Image Analysis monitors that Deckard had in Blade Runner.
Yes I know one can do this type of thing in Photoshop, but PS doesn't make such cool analogish noises.
I would also love it if I could afford to hire someone to shine and pan light through my windows from outside.
Yes I know one can do this type of thing in Photoshop, but PS doesn't make such cool analogish noises.
I would also love it if I could afford to hire someone to shine and pan light through my windows from outside.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
Nice little drawing. Why does everybody do the screen distance calculations using picture height lately? It makes no sense, it's picture width that matters for most content.
Anyway... so they say 30º viewing angle for 1080p, 55º for 4K, 100º for 8K. If I got my calculations right, it means you're supposed to sit at around 2 screen widths for 1080p, 1 screen width for 4K, 0.4 screen widths for 8K. In my living room (viewing distance: 130 inches), that means an 80" screen for 1080p, a 155" screen for 4K, and a 355" screen for 8K. The wall is barely big enough for that 4K screen, nevermind the 8K one. I think I'm going to bookmark this thread, for the next time the resolution debate comes around.
Nektonic
Veteran
Great, now we are gonna have to upgrade our living rooms and edit suits to allow for these big 8K screens.
What happens if they decide to go to 16K? We'll all need castles for that.
Steve Castle
Well-known member
As you sit almost 11 feet from your TV so you need a fairly large screen to cover those viewing angles. For me, as I sit around 7 feet from my TV, so around 50 inches seems to be recommended for HDTV.
But 30º is what SMPTE recommends, manufacturers seem to have their own recommended viewing distances. 40º for 1080p is also thrown around a lot, but I think the ulterior motive is that TV makers want you to buy ever larger screens. For NHK, as they are targeting Japanese viewers, I would assume that viewing distances would tend to be much much smaller given the size of an average Japanese home.
As for 8K, viewing angles & resolution-wise, are very similar to what IMAX originally had in mind. 8K is roughly equivalent in resolution to 70mm negative film, viewing angles over 100º and 44 speakers in a theatre setting.
NHK has been demoing 8K in a theatre settings (on 600 inch screens). They've also shown it on a 145" Panasonic 8K Plasma:
Right now, 60" TV sets have finally started to become cheap. It'll really be at least a decade until 80" or even 100" TV sets are close in price to what consumers can realistically afford. Hopefully by then flexible/roll-able screens would make 100"+ screens logistically feasible for most homes.
Fortunately, 2020 is far away. Any real adoption would be many years after that.
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groveChuck
U-matic Member
I want my holograms... :happy:
Nektonic
Veteran
Watching this produced two possibly profound, or possibly silly thoughts:
1) For actual film/digital cinema production, rear screen projection could possibly make a comeback. Throw your actors in front of these giant 8K Ultra HD screens instead of using green screen. Also, real world sets and location shooting could make a comeback. With the insane amount of detail that 8K could bring, seeing movies and shows shot on location or with really great sets might end up being more spectacular than shiny digital backdrops and effects. Special effects, could possibly be more like what they were intended to be, devices to help tell the story and not for creating all the freaking backdrops and settings that films take place in. Perhaps a cinema of the real will make a comeback after another decade of glossy digital effects spectacles?
2) I think I might just skip the 4K camera and 4K TV set cycle. If anything, I'll grab a Black Magic Cinema Camera and if need be, up-rez the 2.5K footage to 4K. Maybe 4K is gonna be to 8K what 720p is to 1080p, a sort of in between stage when going from SD to HD, but now an intermediate resolution going from HD to Ultra HD. Less people will probably jump on the 4K bandwagon vs. the 8K bandwagon in relation to current 1080p HD. 1080p to 4K is less of a jump than 1080p to 8K. Also, look how long it has taken for 1080p HD to become standard (although most HD broadcast is still sent out in 720p or 1080i). So let's say the near future is 4K for broadcast while 8K is for cinema, ultra blu-ray, and possibly video games.
androbot2084
Carbonite Member
Didn't you complain about the strobing. Wouldn't 6K at 12o frames per second be sharper?
