C300: Avoid Canon's 0% Interest Monthly Payments Scam

[starcentral]

what's described here is normal with really any financing company. ie. if you have your own insurance you can use it but of course have to prove it, if you don't then you have to pay for their insurance coverage.

Also monthly withdrawal from bank account is probably easiest to avoid processing of cheques. I was setup for monthly withdrawal and once didn't have enough in my account by accident and was charged a big fee for that, but look at it all from their point of view.

Things to check for when getting into financing is the fine print, what's the buy back, what are fees for making late payments, insurance etc.. stick with the rules and really there is no problem.

 

[puredrifting]

Counterpoint: your houses wouldn't have even been built were it not for extended credit. (And if you really avoided using credit entirely, you're going to be paying more for anything that uses your credit history as a factor, which is most mortgages/loans/etc.) Understanding and taking advantage of the credit system is one of the smartest things any small business owner can do.

Personally, I have used credit quite a bit, that's why I think it's evil, the temptation to spend money you don't have is too great for the average person (me). I have been guilty of doing so, repeatedly but now, I pay cash for cars, appliances, cameras, video gear, for this exact reason. If you are disciplined, I mean very disciplined, it can be a good tool to use. But the majority of people, myself included, are not disciplined enough. Wife is paying her CC down and I am working on mine too but I still owe way too much, even though I have not bought anything new on it for quite some time. Union dues are required to be paid on it, all of those yearly charges for website hosting, ISP, stock music libraries, its easy to forget about them, out of sight, out of mind. But from a fiscal POV, extended credit can be a huge waste of money in interest and it's easy to fall down the hole. Especially buying gear.

 

[Run&Gun]

I agree that the system sucks and the way it promotes debt is super backward, but...



If your score drops it has nothing to do with the fact that you paid it off early. Telling someone not to pay off accounts early or their score will drop is potentially harmful advice.

When the score may drop is if you pay off an account, it stops reporting, and you then have what the system deems as "too little" of that type of debt represented. The solution for this, if you REALLY need it (and you don't need any kind of significant debt to have a score over 800 -- we're talking making purchases of a few dollars per month on a credit card or two being entirely sufficient for someone with a clean credit history), is to make sure you replace whatever dropped off with a new debt of the same type. But again this is only necessary if your score is low because of previous issues and/or you need the boost for an upcoming application for a mortgage or something.

And someone who has what the system deems as too much revolving debt / high utility ratios / too many installment loans would probably be better served to pay off early as their score will likely go up after the account reports as paid.

True. I mis-spoke. I said early, because I always pay my loans off early. Even though you would think that that is a bonus, but in our system, no... A few years ago I paid off my truck loan about two years or so early and at the time I was sitting at about 820+(Bills always paid on-time, CC paid off every month, etc.). The following month after the pay-off was reported, I dropped into, I believe, the mid 780's/90's. And a friend of mine that owns a restaurant that I eat at all the time, just experienced the same thing when he paid his vehicle off a few months ago. Common sense would say your score should go UP, but not here in the US... It's a game to keep you constantly using/being in-debt, even if it's just a few dollars on a card or account, you basically have to be using credit 24/7 to have it.

It's kind of like being in school and working hard and getting ahead and finishing your school work early, but then your teacher docks you points, because you don't have anymore work to do.

 

[dcoughla]

Personally, I have used credit quite a bit, that's why I think it's evil, the temptation to spend money you don't have is too great for the average person (me). I have been guilty of doing so, repeatedly but now, I pay cash for cars, appliances, cameras, video gear, for this exact reason. If you are disciplined, I mean very disciplined, it can be a good tool to use.

Good on you for taking steps to address your issues, but I respectfully disagree with the view of credit as "evil". It certainly belongs in the category of "dangerous things that can do serious damage if not properly understood/abused" along with alcohol, gambling, etc., but unlike those things it also provides significant benefits when properly understood and used responsibly, and you have full control over the risk.

The reason I get nervous when I see people universally promoting an "all cash" strategy is because it can quite literally cost someone thousands of dollars in higher interest rates down the line depending on where their score is when they start. (It can also be smart for someone in your case to avoid going further into debt.)

Bottom line is you definitely have to read all the paperwork, cross the Ts, dot the Is, and understand the entire industry is basically waiting/hoping you f*ck up.

But if you understand and take steps to prevent that (and the easiest way to do this is to treat credit as cash and never pay for anything you don't currently have cash on hand for), then having a high credit score will save you money on necessary loans, qualify you for business credit cards with great services/perks like cash back, miles/hotel points, and extended warranties that can be better/smoother than the manufacturers' own service. And they make accounting way easier.

I agree there definitely needs to be more warning **USE AT YOUR OWN RISK** type messaging, though. Very easy to get into trouble with this stuff. But with the right approach, can be very beneficial.

 

[dcoughla]

It's kind of like being in school and working hard and getting ahead and finishing your school work early, but then your teacher docks you points, because you don't have anymore work to do.

Excellent analogy. It is a completely dumb system. My hope is now that the technological side of reporting capability is more developed that scores will become a little more nuanced and begin to reflect details like this to the consumers' benefit. But the hacking scandal showed the credit reporting agencies are a bunch of dinosaurs so that could be a while..

 

[alaskacameradude]

Great discussion everybody - we all need to be weary of financial services and loans that seem to be too good to be true. But there are definitely ways to use credit for good, if you're smart.

I forgot to mention, when I took out my most recent CFS lease, for a C300mkII, I was in the process of buying a house. A couple days later I got a call from our mortgage broker and they were in quite a tizzy because the CFS lease took a major hit on my credit score. Just another thing to think about when taking on one of these leases.



Gabe, I lived in Anchorage for about 10 years and that's when I had my first CFS lease, for a C100, and they charged me for borough property tax.

The reason to be wary of this is because most property taxes for businesses have a ceiling, where if you own less than a certain amount of assets, you don't owe any property taxes. Anchorage was $20k I think. So if you fit that criteria, and Canon has charged you automatically with their lease, you're in for quite a workload putting together documents to send to both your tax office as well as Canon if you want that money back.

Thanks for the extra info. Yes, here in Juneau, our business property tax 'ceiling' is much
higher than $20k. I've never really even been close to 'the ceiling.' It sounds like you are
saying Canon 'assumes' you are over the ceiling and bills you accordingly?

I'm with a previous poster. I have never taken out a loan or 'financed' anything
in my video business. Cash up front or my business can't really afford to buy it.
Seems to help me a little with the GAS that I tend to have.  My parents literally
never used credit in their lives. Drove an old beater until they could save
enough to buy something nicer. Saved for 15 years until they could afford
a house. This notion that 'if you only use cash, it will cost you in the future'
is not necessarily true.....its just that in this day and age few people have
the financial discipline and/or the willingness to delay gratification long
enough and so most will feel they 'need' credit sooner or later. Once this
happens, a lack of credit history IS seen as a big negative.

 

[dcoughla]

This notion that 'if you only use cash, it will cost you in the future'
is not necessarily true.....

It's true in 99.9999% of cases.

First, you're assuming someone will never require any kind of credit based loan of any type at any point in the future. For reference, Google tells me the median home price in Alaska is 275k. Here in Los Angeles it's 575k. That's a lot more than 15 years of saving to buy a home in cash. If you do require that loan, and you have no history, guess what -- you're taking a huuuuge hit on that rate.

Second, when your credit score is high, it often makes sense to finance things (even with the cash on hand), because the rates are lower than inflation/alternate investment opportunities. Plenty of the wealthiest people in the world have mortgages and lease cars for this exact reason. It's not about instant gratification, it's about managing money.

If you want to go all cash to save you from yourself/avoid learning how to beat the system, that's entirely fine, but it is costing you. And when you start talking about homes and factor in things like investing for retirement, it's a huge cost.

Absolute best thing to do is learn the credit system at 18 years old and start building your credit. (Again, spending $5 a year on a credit card can get the ball rolling as it will start building your average age of accounts.)

 

[Jim Martin]

Hey guys-
As a dealer, I've probably done 200+ leases with CFS.......I always explain the details with clients.....any up front moneys, insurance requirements, special tax issues, a doc fee, early buyouts, $1 dollar buyout at the end of the lease, etc. Any issues the client has had, CFS people have always gone the extra mile to explain/help/facilitate the client's needs. The main thing is if you have a problem, call them...they will do their best to make it work for you.......

Jim Martin
CinemaWorks

 

[alaskacameradude]

It's true in 99.9999% of cases.

First, you're assuming someone will never require any kind of credit based loan of any type at any point in the future. For reference, Google tells me the median home price in Alaska is 275k. Here in Los Angeles it's 575k. That's a lot more than 15 years of saving to buy a home in cash. If you do require that loan, and you have no history, guess what -- you're taking a huuuuge hit on that rate.

Second, when your credit score is high, it often makes sense to finance things (even with the cash on hand), because the rates are lower than inflation/alternate investment opportunities. Plenty of the wealthiest people in the world have mortgages and lease cars for this exact reason. It's not about instant gratification, it's about managing money.

If you want to go all cash to save you from yourself/avoid learning how to beat the system, that's entirely fine, but it is costing you. And when you start talking about homes and factor in things like investing for retirement, it's a huge cost.

Absolute best thing to do is learn the credit system at 18 years old and start building your credit. (Again, spending $5 a year on a credit card can get the ball rolling as it will start building your average age of accounts.)

Home values in Alaska vary widely based on location. Which makes sense as they do
the same everywhere but here it's a bit different. Have a house in one of the handful
of actual towns in Alaska? Home values are more like $400,000 (or a bit more if you
want something that isn't attached to a neighbors house.) Live in one of the villages
in the 'bush'? Yeah,now your home is really cheap. Because it doesn't come with things
like say running water or electricity. All I'm really saying is that when you compare like
to like our homes here are a little closer to LA prices than you might imagine. I'm gonna
guess that LA ranks up pretty high on the list of 'places where it is expensive to buy a
house' though.

I get your point about how your high credit score may make it smart to
finance if inflation is higher than interest rates. Thats something that makes
a lot of sense with today's low interest rates. Credit CAN be used for good.
That's just the exception instead of the rule for most people in our country
though. I'm still not sure that my approach has 'cost me'
when I look at college classmates of mine still paying off student loans
from 15 years ago, instead of paying for school as I did.

A quick Google search will also give you figures for how much
credit card debt the average American has. Another will give
you the average student loan debt. I'm not sure that your
'99.99999% of the time it's costing you to use cash instead
of credit' statistic bears up under the statistics I am seeing there.

 

[Bubble]

if you're looking to the 24 months no interested, Get it from ebay authorize vendor and use your pp credit line. They have 0% no interested ALL THE TIME. No tax, no insurance required. And you can pay off at anytime you want.

 

[dcoughla]

All I'm really saying is that when you compare like
to like our homes here are a little closer to LA prices than you might imagine.

On Zillow the most expensive area in Alaska is Juneau @ 350k. LA County generally is $605k, and somewhere like Burbank, where a lot of film folks live because it's one of the only remaining affordable areas, is 705k. So even cutting as close to "like for like" as possible I think you're looking at a 2x multiplier which sounds about right to me. LA is pretty expensive, but still the cheapest of the major cities in CA. San Diego and the Bay Area are worse. New York is up there, too. Point being, if you want to own a home in a major city, it's really difficult to avoid requiring credit at some point

Credit CAN be used for good.
That's just the exception instead of the rule for most people in our country
though. Average American has how much debt and is paying how much in
interest? Have a guess? I'm still not sure that my approach has 'cost me'
when I look at college classmates of mine still paying off student loans
from 15 years ago, instead of paying for school as I did.

Just because most people screw this stuff up doesn't mean it isn't still a good idea for someone who is smart enough to learn how to not screw it up. And it really can have a huge impact. Take the case of your parents -- they could have moved in to the same home after ~5 years of saving a downpayment instead of 15 for the whole thing. And once you factor in equity/rental savings/home ownership tax breaks/compounding interest, there's a really good chance they would have more money after that 15 years, too. All for the price of a couple hours of research and a few hours of maintenance per year. In fact I'd go so far as to say responsible, disciplined folks like your parents are actually perfect candidates for reaping the benefits of the credit system!

Yes, it screws a lot of people over, but there are plenty of people who learn enough to take care of their finances and I think that's the bar we should all be shooting for!

 

[NorBro]

Not sure if anyone here has mentioned PayPal Credit, but I have been using it for 10 years (used to be called Bill-Me-Later).

Drop $4-$5-$10K (it depends on your credit line) and don't pay a penny until 5 months and 29-30 days (have to pay off your purchase by 6 months), which I then pay in full.

I have half a year to do whatever with the items and have been doing this forever while owning/renting/selling. But you have to pay off your purchases by 6 months though because if you forget, the interest is on the original amount (not what's left on your balance) and that can hurt you if you're not careful and/or good with managing your finances.

 

[alaskacameradude]

On Zillow the most expensive area in Alaska is Juneau @ 350k. LA County generally is $605k, and somewhere like Burbank, where a lot of film folks live because it's one of the only remaining affordable areas, is 705k. So even cutting as close to "like for like" as possible I think you're looking at a 2x multiplier which sounds about right to me. LA is pretty expensive, but still the cheapest of the major cities in CA. San Diego and the Bay Area are worse. New York is up there, too. Point being, if you want to own a home in a major city, it's really difficult to avoid requiring credit at some point



Just because most people screw this stuff up doesn't mean it isn't still a good idea for someone who is smart enough to learn how to not screw it up. And it really can have a huge impact. Take the case of your parents -- they could have moved in to the same home after ~5 years of saving a downpayment instead of 15 for the whole thing. And once you factor in equity/rental savings/home ownership tax breaks/compounding interest, there's a really good chance they would have more money after that 15 years, too. All for the price of a couple hours of research and a few hours of maintenance per year. In fact I'd go so far as to say responsible, disciplined folks like your parents are actually perfect candidates for reaping the benefits of the credit system!

Yes, it screws a lot of people over, but there are plenty of people who learn enough to take care of their finances and I think that's the bar we should all be shooting for!

I do live in Juneau, and if you are seeing $350,000 for
a home here, it’s an ‘attached’/zero lot home. That’s
what they are called here anyways. Other places call
them ‘duplexes’. If you want a home not actually
attached by a wall to a neighbor’s home it’s going to
be $500,000 usually. Which granted is not $600 or
700 thousand like you are talking. Guess
you have to pay to live in eternal sunshine. Not
nearly as many people want to live in eternal rain in
Alaska....lol. Although we have several people who live
here and work in LA as screenwriters or
similar so I guess some people are ok with it....maybe
escaping horrible commute times?

And I wasn’t saying people shouldn’t learn how the credit
system works. I was saying that your characterization
of ‘cash only’ as something that ‘costs 99.999%’ of
the population money’ might not be exactly correct.
If anything, after looking at American debt statistics,
‘cash only’ might be something prudent for many to
adopt. I am reminded of Vegas in this discussion.
Why you ask? Everyone I talk to tells me how,
when they go to Vegas they come out ahead.
Now I’m not certain, but I don’t think all those
casinos would exist if they were losing money to
everyone who comes to Vegas. It will ‘cost’
99.9999% of the population more to use cash only
instead of using credit? I’m sure the countless credit
card companies who keep sending me offers in the
mail would agree. Save money and get a credit card!
Now again, you are correct that credit CAN be valuable
and if used correctly CAN help in a lot of ways including
actually saving you money (as you said, when interest
rates on your loan are lower than inflation.) So yes
points to you on this. Credit correctly used can be a
great thing and you have done a great job explaining
several ways how.

But I’m not so sure about this claim that in 99.999%
of the time going ‘cash only’ will cost you money. Judging
by the debt statistics, I’d say it’s closer to being totally
reversed. Maybe because 90% of our population doesn’t
have your fiscal restraint.

 

[dcoughla]

But I’m not so sure about this claim that in 99.999%
of the time going ‘cash only’ will cost you money. Judging
by the debt statistics, I’d say it’s closer to being totally
reversed. Maybe because 90% of our population doesn’t
have your fiscal restraint.

Median home value is the best metric you're going to get to compare as it factors in the whole spectrum. I promise you, it's going to be about 2x "like for like" anywhere desirable in CA. Compare https://www.zillow.com/homes/Juneau-AK_rb/ with https://www.zillow.com/homes/Burbank-CA_rb/ -- on this note, I'm now considering moving to Alaska!

As for the 99.99%, what I mean is this: If you need a loan and have no credit, it will cost you more than if you had an established history. So refusing to use any kind of credit is highly likely to result in an increased cost if you ever need something credit based, which most people do.

Now, maybe you're trying to say that the average increased cost of the loan will ultimately be less than the average cost of the various penalty fees people will pay vs. if they had never had a credit card in the first place, and therefore people will be net better off if they paid cash? I don't know how the numbers shake out on this (would be verrry hard to calculate), but even if that is "true", suggesting a universal principle based on majority behavior is dangerous because it fails to account for what is in this case a successful minority.

I certainly won't disagree with the fact that people who are 100% certain that they cannot manage credit should not apply for it, but I'd hate to discourage everyone from doing something just because most people screw it up. By that logic most people should be dissuaded from doing most things that are truly worthwhile in this world!

 

[BrandonT]

if you're looking to the 24 months no interested, Get it from ebay authorize vendor and use your pp credit line. They have 0% no interested ALL THE TIME. No tax, no insurance required. And you can pay off at anytime you want.

I've used the 6 month version of this many times. Are you saying there's a 24 month?

 

[alaskacameradude]

Median home value is the best metric you're going to get to compare as it factors in the whole spectrum. I promise you, it's going to be about 2x "like for like" anywhere desirable in CA. Compare https://www.zillow.com/homes/Juneau-AK_rb/ with https://www.zillow.com/homes/Burbank-CA_rb/ -- on this note, I'm now considering moving to Alaska!

As for the 99.99%, what I mean is this: If you need a loan and have no credit, it will cost you more than if you had an established history. So refusing to use any kind of credit is highly likely to result in an increased cost if you ever need something credit based, which most people do.

Now, maybe you're trying to say that the average increased cost of the loan will ultimately be less than the average cost of the various penalty fees people will pay vs. if they had never had a credit card in the first place, and therefore people will be net better off if they paid cash? I don't know how the numbers shake out on this (would be verrry hard to calculate), but even if that is "true", suggesting a universal principle based on majority behavior is dangerous because it fails to account for what is in this case a successful minority.

I certainly won't disagree with the fact that people who are 100% certain that they cannot manage credit should not apply for it, but I'd hate to discourage everyone from doing something just because most people screw it up. By that logic most people should be dissuaded from doing most things that are truly worthwhile in this world!

Not to get into too much of a back and forth on this, but did you read through
your Juneau Zillow listings? See, you must be VERY careful when you use Zillow
to try and compare a city (which is where Zillow works well) to an area like Juneau...
where Zillow is.......a bit interesting. Let me give you one quick example.
Here is one of the homes on your Zillow link for Juneau
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Totem-Trl-14-15-Juneau-AK-99801/2090339217_zpid/

Funny thing about Alaska. A property like this will be listed often with Juneau properties
because it's 'easily accessible from Juneau boat launches.' This is remote property
on Colt Island and is not located in Juneau. But hey, jump into a boat in Juneau and its
only a 30-45 minute ride away, depending on how rough the weather is.
Go on, read about it on the link. My favorite line is 'teach the kids to chop firewood or
just get away from the TV and video games.' It's not road accessible and things like.....
running water and electricity are your job to provide and maintain.
Your Juneau link also include 3 'lots for sale' (which means you still have to build the house
after you have cleared the land) and 2 trailers for sale which means that you don't own ANY
land and end up having a $800 /month 'lot rent' fee after you buy the trailer. Those all are
hugely distorting the average values on Zillow. Zillow will also often include 'houseboats'
in Juneau, which many people have taken to living on because of the overinflated housing prices.

I get it, LA is very expensive. When I was living in LA, I literally rented out someone's
unused garage and converted it to an apartment. I've lived in both LA and Juneau.
(I worked on a little show called 'California's Gold' when I was there.)
LA has higher housing prices, I agree. One thing about LA, is that you can find
cheaper rent in certain 'less desirable' places. But then you have to live there....
and there are usually good reasons they are cheaper. Juneau's prices are still
pretty freaking high, way above the national average, and then there is the
higher price of everything else. Let's just say that before you make a move to
Alaska, you might want to take a look at the cost of things like gas, food and other
essentials. ��

But back to my main point. I'm going to say something here that I hope isn't taken
the wrong way. 'Everyone' is a good driver. Other people on the road are 'idiots'
(if they are driving slower than you) or 'maniacs' (if they are driving faster than you.)
'Everyone' 'wins' in Vegas.
In other words, I'm not trying to express a 'universal principle based on majority behavior.'
I'm instead trying to say that 'getting sucked into too much debt because of easily
accessible credit' IS a majority behavior. Instead of assuming that YOU will be in the
'successful minority' a person would do well to consider WHY they would do better than
most others? Do you usually have money left at the end of the month that you put
into savings? Is what you are purchasing via credit something you need or a 'nice to have'?
Could you put aside the monthly loan payments from your paycheck each month and still pay
your other bills and live just fine? OK, then maybe do just that for a few months. If
everything is fine, now you have a nice little downpayment! The problem is, 'everyone'
assumes they will be part of the successful minority......without considering the fact that
it IS a minority for a reason! Consider this very thread is about the problems someone
had with a 0% interest loan! Most people would think '0% interest...great!'
I'm thinking 'How does anyone make money off of loaning me money at 0%?'
I see things like 0% interest loans as a huge caution sign. I'd be approaching slowly,
carefully, and asking a ton of questions and doing investigative work. And maybe after
investigation your answer would be 'they make money off of late fees that most
people pay because they miss the loan payment date. So I'll be certain to send
my loan payment 5 days early to make sure that never happens to me.'
But you really need to know what you are getting into. Because no one is in
business to give you money. They want to MAKE money. And trust me, credit
companies are making money. So you better understand every little thing
when/if you enter a relationship with one of them. A large majority of
people don't. Hence, it ends up costing them $$$ through interest, late fees
or other fees (some loans have prepayment penalties to make sure you can't
get out of paying all the interest they'd like you to pay!)

 

[dcoughla]

Not to get into too much of a back and forth on this

I appreciate that you took the time to type all that out but to be honest I'm no longer interested in any back and forth. Cherry picking data, relying on anecdotal evidence and attacking sources without providing alternatives is where I bow out.

As far as the debt thing goes, literally all you have to do is get a credit card at age 18, make a small purchase on it 1x a year and pay it off, and you're on your way to an excellent credit score. Most people don't know that. That makes the people who do know and implement that strategy the minority. If you want to advocate against that, be my guest.

 

[brettsherman]

I also bought my cameras through Texas Media Systems which has a full sales tax exemption for most Film & TV equipment (not totally sure how that works since I'm out of state, but I don't think I had to pay it).

They don't really have an exemption, they just don't have to withhold it because they don't have a business presence in your state. Technically, you are generally supposed to pay your own state's sales tax, but nobody does that. This is why South Dakota just passed a controversial law to collect taxes from online sales.

 

[nutmegger]

They don't really have an exemption, they just don't have to withhold it because they don't have a business presence in your state. Technically, you are generally supposed to pay your own state's sales tax, but nobody does that. This is why South Dakota just passed a controversial law to collect taxes from online sales.

The Supreme Court will be hearing the South Dakota sales tax case tomorrow.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/su...upreme-court-takes-internet-sales-tax-n864001

We will see how this plays out.

Enjoy.

 

[LucasTanakaFilm]

Adding to the positive experience group.

I had a c100 that I paid off a few months early, and now I'm almost done with a 2 year C300Mkii lease.

I've always paid on my credit card, auto-pay, and have never had any issues. The only downside I see is I would have been open to buying a used package for less with more accessories.

I've never paid any additional fees besides insurance, which I meant to have my own, but I just used theirs.

It's been almost 4 years since my first lease and I would happily do it again after the C300mkii if I needed to.