AVC Ultra?

that is fun isn't it. He stating the following in the presentation.

-'to keep developping to keep you're investment safe'-
-'we need you to feel safe'-

my investment doesn't look very safe if every next month something better and more interesting is coming out.

don't get me wrong ofcourse, I'm very happy with all the new development but I don't feel very safe. Every time I want to buy something new, I think that within a year what I use is oldfashioned.

the investment I did in P2 cards, unbelievable 2-years ago, now I can't earn them back anymore with these low costs up coming cards. Thats not really a 'safe' feeling.
 
dolph2000 said:
my investment doesn't look very safe if every next month something better and more interesting is coming out.
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Too true.

Feeling safe is knowing that Panasonic will have an upgrade I can install in my HPX500 that will allow it to do AVCi, etc. The only one feeling safe right now is Panasonic. They assume we chumps will buy whole new cameras every time Panasonic coughs up with a new codec or the like.

Well, that's not going to happen. At least not from me. My HPX500 is my last Panasonic purchase. The next camera on my list is a Red.

There I will BE SAFE because should any component of the camera be made obsolete, I'll have the option to buy a new component. Not so with Panasonic.

Undoubtedly, Panasonic feels they have enough market share to ignore Red and people like myself. That attitude worked wonders for market behemoths like Detroit and Avid, didn't it.
 
Seriously guys, are you not making money with the gear you bought? A 4gb P2 card still works, so do the 8gb cards we have. And if I need any more in future, they'll be half the price. Isn't that a good thing?

Your HPX500 doesn't have a time limit on it, its still shooting good quality DVCPROHD and there hasn't been a replacement camera brought out yet. At the price point I paid for the HPX500 body, it was paid off quickly and the lenses will go to the next camera I buy. The glass can be half full.

Martin is making a lot of assumptions about Red. I know Red One owners who don't feel particularly SAFE. I know a lot of Red One owners who feel like they've been used as a big ugly testing ground. And yet you would still praise the company for something which they have not yet been able to do and commit to buying products which don't even exist? Brave man.

I think their camera is great but I think the way they have done business up till now doesn't hold up to the standards expected of Sony and Panasonic etc.
 
I agree, I love the HPX500 even the the 300 doesn't sway me, I've got bigger chips and a global CCD, I've got a 1 Second boot time and a machine I can predict the behaviour of, Anyone noice that the red is still in Beta, because there are plenty of Issues
 
The same P2 card that records DVCPro/DVCproHD now records AVC100 Intra and will probably record AVC Ultra.

You can use the same card in a $5000 HVX-200 and pop it into a $50K HPX-3700.

How is that NOT protecting your investment.

I swear some of these arguments make no sense.
 
mcgeedigital said:
The same P2 card that records DVCPro/DVCproHD now records AVC100 Intra and will probably record AVC Ultra.

You can use the same card in a $5000 HVX-200 and pop it into a $50K HPX-3700.

How is that NOT protecting your investment.

I swear some of these arguments make no sense.
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I'll second that, Matt! That truly is the beauty of P2! There are lots of choices out there, and to say you don't feel safe with P2 is truly quite ignorant. You've got a recording medium that is cross-camera capable, will take multiple formats and you don't need an expensive proprietary deck to record to/from.

Unreal.
 
Richard Sutcliffe said:
Martin is making a lot of assumptions about Red. I know Red One owners who don't feel particularly SAFE. I know a lot of Red One owners who feel like they've been used as a big ugly testing ground. And yet you would still praise the company for something which they have not yet been able to do and commit to buying products which don't even exist? Brave man.
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Richard, Red's business model is not an assumption, it's a fact. They're planing the next generation of cameras to be modular. Do you disagree?

Also, my post was about the future, not about Red One nor that its early adopters suffered teething pains. Is a Red One perfect? Far from it. Are their limitations one must work around - sure, but than all technology does. But think of it this way, Richard, its only been around.... one year. In that year, Red has shifted the paradigm of what cameras can do at what price. People from the commercial world tell me that DP's are now expected to show up with their own Reds. Red has unnerved Panavision and Arriflex reps I've talked to. (they couldn't say "skewing" fast enough) Based on one year, Red's trajectory into the future is mind boggling.

So I'm not being brave. Just observant.

btw, did you know this month's cover of Details magazine was shoot on a Red One?
 
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martin kunert said:
Richard, Red's business model is not an assumption, it's a fact. They're planing the next generation of cameras to be modular. Do you disagree?

Also, my post was about the future, not about Red One nor that its early adopters suffered teething pains. Is a Red One perfect? Far from it. Are their limitations one must work around - sure, but than all technology does. But think of it this way, Richard, its only been around.... one year. In that year, Red has shifted the paradigm of what cameras can do at what price. People from the commercial world tell me that DP's are now expected to show up with their own Reds. Red has unnerved Panavision and Arriflex reps I've talked to. (they couldn't say "skewing" fast enough) Based on one year, Red's trajectory into the future is mind boggling.

So I'm not being brave. Just observant.

btw, did you know this month's cover of Details magazine was shoot on a Red One?
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The problem is, this is not apples to apples... RED is a completely different target audience than Panasonic... Red is strictly for "film use"... not ENG or reality shooting, event shooting, weddings, or any of the other MANY different scenarios you can shoot with Panasonic gear. they are both tools, but VERY different ball game for both. Red has the cards on there side when it comes to pleasing their crowd, because their customers are all in it for roughly the same thing. Panasonic has to please EVERYONE, from event shooters, to film makers, to corporate work, to tv... I am not saying Panasonic is great, I am simply stating that the argument isnt really fair at all.

Red can shift gears much faster than a company who has their hands in so many different places... They are not a "Film Camera Company" like RED is, they deal with everything, thus making it much harder to do the things RED can do in one category. Overall I think that if RED had to please the masses like Panasonic, they couldn't. They couldn't even make a dent in the Photography arena like they said they were going to... that failed before it even left the ground. I am a Professional Photographer, I still do big photography gigs... there is NO way you will get any photographer to leave their love of either Nikon or Canon body's for a Red... its just not going to happen. Nikon and Canon will NEVER be beat in the eyes of the pros... Thats just a loss right there. They have decades of expertise in photography, RED 0... point made.
 
Giuseppe Pugliese said:
The problem is, this is not apples to apples... RED is a completely different target audience than Panasonic... Red is strictly for "film use"... not ENG or reality shooting, event shooting, weddings, or any of the other MANY different scenarios you can shoot with Panasonic gear. they are both tools, but VERY different ball game for both. Red has the cards on there side when it comes to pleasing their crowd, because their customers are all in it for roughly the same thing. Panasonic has to please EVERYONE, from event shooters, to film makers, to corporate work, to tv... I am not saying Panasonic is great, I am simply stating that the argument isnt really fair at all.

Red can shift gears much faster than a company who has their hands in so many different places... They are not a "Film Camera Company" like RED is, they deal with everything, thus making it much harder to do the things RED can do in one category. Overall I think that if RED had to please the masses like Panasonic, they couldn't. They couldn't even make a dent in the Photography arena like they said they were going to... that failed before it even left the ground. I am a Professional Photographer, I still do big photography gigs... there is NO way you will get any photographer to leave their love of either Nikon or Canon body's for a Red... its just not going to happen. Nikon and Canon will NEVER be beat in the eyes of the pros... Thats just a loss right there. They have decades of expertise in photography, RED 0... point made.
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Giuseppe, Red One is for film use. The next generation of equipment they're planning will blur the distinction. Canon and Nikon are already dipping their feet into having still cameras capture HD, its not surprising that Red is heading the other way. That titan corporations like Panasonic have trouble turning on a dime to take advantage of revolutionary change - you're dead on right. That is exactly Panasonic's problem here. Red wasn't heading down the modular route at first either. They proposed two cameras - Epic and Scarlet. And then word came out of Canon and Nikon messing around with HD on their still cameras. Red saw the future, canceled their inital 2nd generation camera plans, turned on a dime, and came back with the modular approach.


"Jack of all trades" is as you indicate Panasonic's strategy. I propose that strategy is flawed. Jack of Trades means Master of None. Manufactures like Red will allow - the wedding videographer - feature film maker - the news cameraman - to customize their camera to be the master of their realm. A more cost effective machine may be bought as we won't pay for capabilities we don't use. I agree that Red would fail it they tried to please the masses like Panasonic does; that's why I think Red's strategy is better. Red One, as being a camera for the masses, is a dismal failure with too many glitches and difficult workflow.

Imho, you writing "never" when it comes to technology is dicy at best. You claim Red will never replace Nikon and Canon in the eyes of pros. Wasn't it once said that pros would never choose Japanese cameras over German and Swedish ones, that German glass is better, that 35mm would never replace medium formant, and that pros would never choose digital over film? I think your point is far from made. Also, check out Chase Jarvis - a pro photographer who happened to win the Hasselblad masters - for another perspective.

It will be interesting to watch how camera technology evolves. Either way, manufacturers beat the hell out of each other... and we benefit.
 
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Hey Guys,
You both have somewhat valid arguments, good points made on both sides. However, to me, Panasonic does make a modular system. The only thing I need to change on my next upgrade is the camera body. Red is doing it in somewhat of a reverse fashion, but at least I don't have to buy another lens, cards, batteries and all of the accessories that go with it. I think that Red could do some great things, and for what they are doing is fine. They both serve a purpose, have their "market share". Sony is in the same boat. And to me, by the time I need to update all of my stuff in 5 years when the next revolutionary thing comes out, my gear will probably paid for itself dozens of times over. Buy gear for what you need it for today and tomorrow, maybe the next couple of years, but it doesn't matter what it is, technology is going to change and get better with time. And when that time comes, upgrade then. Someone will always be looking to use yesterday's gear.

Just to give an example, the DVX-100 Came out how long ago? And people are still buying them? Even the HVX-200 has been around for a few years now and is still going strong. If you worry too much about what's to come in the future, you're going to miss out on today and that's what counts.
 
martin kunert said:
Manufactures like Red will allow - the wedding videographer - feature film maker - the news cameraman - to customize their camera to be the master of their realm. A more cost effective machine may be bought as we won't pay for capabilities we don't use. I agree that Red would fail it they tried to please the masses like Panasonic does; that's why I think Red's strategy is better. Red One, as being a camera for the masses, is a dismal failure with too many glitches and difficult workflow.
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This has been discussed numerous times before, with Panasonic, Sony, Grass Valley and Ikegami you buy a finished product that's been tested for it's use. They fit into established workflows which RED don't, at least at the moment. With both the larger broadcasters here in Norway working on Quantel for news and outside sports productions RED will be a no-go, they don't even accept HD...which also rules out Sony EX1/3 and Pdw700.
Or as a friend in the business stated, with RED you are a betatester....with Sony/Pana you buy a finished product that WILL deliver and work...if not it's replaced within days. RED lacks the entire support chain to be of any use for event and news people, the news and events don't wait for support from the US. And how on earth won't say a hpx2700 be cost effective? It can do news, sports, events, docu and drama, or at least the old varicam was used for all that...hows that not cost effective?

As as of today there are RED one that's available, not scarlet. RED did announce it's cameras almost a year in advance, way before they even get beyond beta stage.

I'm not negative to RED or it's innovations, and have seen some stunning work done with it. What I a more critical to are the logics of it taking over the entire market as they don't have even small percentages of the production facilities or support network that both the "old" players has. If Canon decide to they do have the support network and manufacturing capabilities to put RED out of business, or at least outside the US...
martin kunert said:
Imho, you writing "never" when it comes to technology is dicy at best. You claim Red will never replace Nikon and Canon in the eyes of pros. Wasn't it once said that pros would never choose Japanese cameras over German and Swedish ones, that German glass is better, that 35mm would never replace medium formant, and that pros would never choose digital over film? I think your point is far from made. Also, check out Chase Jarvis - a pro photographer who happened to win the Hasselblad masters - for another perspective.

It will be interesting to watch how camera technology evolves. Either way, manufacturers beat the hell out of each other... and we benefit.
Click to expand...
The realy high end users still work with Hasselblad, Phase One and "even" film, not Nikon og Canon as it won't cut it. I can't really se RED making any impact to this market in a short timespan, etablished photographers tend to stick with their make for a long time.....still kind of a "war" between Nikon and Canon users:beer:
 
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