Avatar - James Cameron Returns! (Spoilers in thread, obviously!)

Batutta said:
So which sets were yours, Max?
Click to expand...

Dragon flight deck, mess hall, Valkyrie flight deck, Valkyrie cargo hold, miscellaneous corridor details etc. Lots of technical stuff.

*edit* and the bar which originally served as the setting of the opening scenes of the film, which was filmed but dropped from the final cut, somewhere along the way...
 
Last edited:
Sad Max said:
In truth if one hasn't seen a given work it's really quite unfair to publicly critique it.
Click to expand...
Absolutely agreed. Same thing drove me around the twist when people who hadn't seen it, were lambasting a new training DVD coming out, based on the table of contents(!)

The public seems to have spoken. As of right now, over 6,600 people have voted Avatar an 8.7 on IMDB, which puts it on the Top 250 list at #168. Which means that people are filling the theaters (my 3:25 showing was packed, I had the worst seats I've had in years because there weren't any others available), and they're commenting. I can't remember the last time a film had nigh unto 7,000 votes on opening day, and on the west coast the 7:00 screenings haven't even let out yet.
 
Sad Max said:
I have to admit, Barry, that table of contents fills me with a sense of foreboding.
Click to expand...
It's designed to terrify. He did a great job with the TOC.

To put the 7,000 votes on opening day in perspective, "Invictus" has been out a solid week, and it's got less than 2,000 votes. Tops at the box office last week, "Princess & The Frog", has less than 3,000 votes. The Blind Side was #2 at the box office, has been out for a solid month, and it's still only got 6463 votes. Avatar hasn't even been out for 24 hours yet and nearly 7,000 people felt like logging in and voting on it.
 
havent read any of this thread, but i loved the movie. some things jumped out at me with some of the dialogue (exposition) and i could predict what was basically going to happen but i was too emerged in the characters and visuals to actually care. saw it in an imax 3d theater. packed house, everybody clapped when it was over. it did its job IMO. 5 out of 5 stars.
 
Sad Max said:
In truth if one hasn't seen a given work it's really quite unfair to publicly critique it.
Click to expand...

I think it's okay to critique a trailer (which I've seen about a million times over the last week).

I haven't commented on the storyline or the 3D because I haven't experienced them yet.

My position has more to do with my aversion to the marketing campaign and my aversion to Celebrity hype than it has to do with this movie.

I feel like people are suddenly accepting photo realistic CGI animation simply because James Cameron has put his hand in it.

I feel like all the critics are hero worshipping more than they're critiquing.

There's this pulse the marketing of Avatar (which the critics have exacerbated) has created, a feeling of wrong-doing if someone decides not to see this movie.

Can you imagine if Final Fantasy would have done that? The CGI of Final Fantasy was dissected and panned by critics for it appearing too realistic, but when this dude comes along and does it marginally better now we should be painting our goats blue and sacrificing them in the street to the almighty J.C.?

Maybe I just don't agree on spending 500 million on a movie. Any movie.

I have so many problems with this movie because of the way the marketing and the critics and the "fans" have handled it. The movie cam out, like, TODAY and they're already heralding it as the next Star Wars?

WTF?

I mean, honestly, are people really considering that this movie is better than The Matrix?

Myself and others that I've talked with just feel plain...icky about the whole thing.

So maybe I do have an axe to grind, but I don't think I'm the only one. I'm sure the movie is visually stunning and that it's story will be at least as good as The Lion King. But no one told me that I should feel like an a$$hole if I didn't go and see The Lion King, see? There's like this mob mentality that the marketing has created, this kind of brainwashing that occurs from constant, constant impressions, trying to get fans rabid and almost angry at people who might even consider rejecting the movie.

I don't blame Cameron for the marketing or what's been happening the past few weeks leading up to Avatar's release, but the desperation of constant (and I mean CONSTANT) ads made me finally just not want to see the movie. I want to pay them back for trying to brainwash me and my friends, and I think that's fair.
 
This movie was its own experience to me. Just saw it in IMAX 3D. It was just one that felt like its own experience and I don't feel a need to nitpick it.

Such a great world that was created, and yes... in this case, the whole IMAX 3D route is a part of the experience. Crowded as hell and bought my ticket yesterday for the first showing not sold out (the 10:15pm the following night)... Got there 45 minutes early and the long ass line of 80% of the audience was there.

Is this an Avatar thing, or just that particular theater that I was at, or IMAX 3D or what? I haven't been to the movies much in several years... but anyways, there was absolutely zero pre-movie stuff on the screen. The lights went down and it started.

Anyways, without going into a lot of detail, I was just able to sit back and enjoy the world and watch it. The story was clean. They got straight to the point and there really wasn't much fluff at all. It felt like a pretty trim 2:45.

Such a big, grand, epic spectacle, that was tight all the way around.

All the CG this and that. I'm usually pretty discerning of CG and such, and really enjoy watching pixar films and all that. For this, there were some moments here and there, but for the most part... I was perfectly content just "looking into" the world presented to me, and could accept it as that. That's where the whole, see it on a 5 story tall, 7 story wide (so they said) screen in 3D really seemed like a necessary part of the experience in this case. Maybe not a "necessary" part, but it certainly seems like seeing it in 2D will be a different experience of its own. I'm actually kinda wanting to see it that way as well.

Anyways. I enjoyed it. And, if I wanted to touch on my thoughts on the whole execution of cgi, I'd probably have to say for every 1 time that I thought about it being CG there were 2 or 3 that I was just like "man, that shot is hyper-real". One place I personally thought they really excelled was in the motion.. the dynamics of the movement. They were very rich, and that may be the one thing that really helped me to be able to just "look into the world" and accept it for what it was. I've not been a huge fan of the whole motion capture brand of CGI in the past. In this case, the opposite is true for me.

An immensely deep world, that shows you enough to make you want to know and see more (and don't get me wrong. it shows you a ton. no copouts in that regard) of the world when it's over. And, a story that is clean, and to the point. A very clean, polished, yet epic round of storytelling. My opinion anyways.

Glad I was able to see it the way I did. particularly since the two times I've been to the cinema in the last week are 2 of the 3 times that I've been to the cinema in several years.

later,
jason
 
Barry, I understand your point in regards to the votes on IMDB, but I wouldn't really compare them to other movies at all in regards to BO results/time out already. Avatar is at the top for marketing money and exposure which explains the number of votes just fine. I don't hold the IMDB votes with too much weight either because it seems like most folks give something 10/10 without even really thinking about it, lol. I hate it when I see Christian movies for instance (I'm a Christian by the way) that other Christians rate 10/10 just based on it's message...no thought put in whatsoever to what should constitute a good score.

Oddly enough, the showings where I live weren't packed. It took a long time for the theater to start filling up a little. When The Dark Knight came out, it was a MADHOUSE no matter where you were.

In regards the film I thought it was very fun, visually stunning, super predictable, etc. A really amazing movie to watch, but by no means a 5 star for me. When I hear someone give something 5 stars (basically 10/10) it better have a surprising story, enjoyable characters that have something unique about them, etc. This film had a good old school story structure to it that works fine, then added to it the visual spectacle (which I fully agree with everyone on, gorgeous), but that's hardly enough for me to give it a perfect score.

4/5 at the most for me, spectacle isn't everything.

Lets hope that all the groundbreaking CG in the film isn't repackaged on other films that stand on it's shoulders (like what normally happens) but removes absolutely every bit of substance this film might have had to serve the CG. Time will tell...
 
Barry_Green said:
Absolutely agreed. Same thing drove me around the twist when people who hadn't seen it, were lambasting a new training DVD coming out, based on the table of contents(!)

The public seems to have spoken. As of right now, over 6,600 people have voted Avatar an 8.7 on IMDB, which puts it on the Top 250 list at #168. Which means that people are filling the theaters (my 3:25 showing was packed, I had the worst seats I've had in years because there weren't any others available), and they're commenting. I can't remember the last time a film had nigh unto 7,000 votes on opening day, and on the west coast the 7:00 screenings haven't even let out yet.
Click to expand...

It's been said many times this movie will be pulling in big numbers for a long time, think Titanic + 5 months. What's surprising is the east coast couldn't go out tonight (Bad Storm, wouldn't bother me btw :)). $80M weekend with half the country seeing it. I couldn't park at my favorite sushi restraunt in KC tonight btw (it's across the street from our AMC theater).
 
So to the people that loved the movie; You were happy with the story? I was content with it and felt it all worked yet to me it was painstakingly predictable, especially as time went on.

To sad max, do you help design those sets or are you given very specific 'blueprints' of what the set is to look like? Exceptional work btw.
 
Last edited:
Chamber005 said:
I think it's okay to critique a trailer (which I've seen about a million times over the last week).

I haven't commented on the storyline or the 3D because I haven't experienced them yet.

My position has more to do with my aversion to the marketing campaign and my aversion to Celebrity hype than it has to do with this movie.

I feel like people are suddenly accepting photo realistic CGI animation simply because James Cameron has put his hand in it.

I feel like all the critics are hero worshipping more than they're critiquing.

There's this pulse the marketing of Avatar (which the critics have exacerbated) has created, a feeling of wrong-doing if someone decides not to see this movie.

Can you imagine if Final Fantasy would have done that? The CGI of Final Fantasy was dissected and panned by critics for it appearing too realistic, but when this dude comes along and does it marginally better now we should be painting our goats blue and sacrificing them in the street to the almighty J.C.?

Maybe I just don't agree on spending 500 million on a movie. Any movie.

I have so many problems with this movie because of the way the marketing and the critics and the "fans" have handled it. The movie cam out, like, TODAY and they're already heralding it as the next Star Wars?

WTF?

I mean, honestly, are people really considering that this movie is better than The Matrix?

Myself and others that I've talked with just feel plain...icky about the whole thing.

So maybe I do have an axe to grind, but I don't think I'm the only one. I'm sure the movie is visually stunning and that it's story will be at least as good as The Lion King. But no one told me that I should feel like an a$$hole if I didn't go and see The Lion King, see? There's like this mob mentality that the marketing has created, this kind of brainwashing that occurs from constant, constant impressions, trying to get fans rabid and almost angry at people who might even consider rejecting the movie.

I don't blame Cameron for the marketing or what's been happening the past few weeks leading up to Avatar's release, but the desperation of constant (and I mean CONSTANT) ads made me finally just not want to see the movie. I want to pay them back for trying to brainwash me and my friends, and I think that's fair.
Click to expand...

This is a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with the movie. We were questioning your critiques because they started to get too opinionated about something you haven't seen. This is the first you've complained about the marketing campaign which is something entirely different. Anyway, all marketing is brainwashing. I don't see anything about the level of hype in the marketing of Avatar that has been different from any other blockbuster. A bit more emphasis perhaps have been placed on the visionary FX based aspects of the film, but that's because they don't have any pre-sold elements to this film. It's not based on a book, a comic book, a tv show, a game, or a previous movie, and doesn't have any big stars. All they have beyond the story is that it's a unique 3D cinema experience and was directed by James Cameron. Sure, the story should be enough, but studios don't think a good story is enough to get people into the theater anymore. I think Avatar is a good story, it just happens to be one we've seen before.
 
tmnt said:
To sad max, do you help design those sets or are you given very specific 'blueprints' of what the set is to look like? Exceptional work btw.
Click to expand...

Usually a given set (or prop, or environment, or character, or vehicle) begins as a work of concept art by an illustrator or sculptor (which is sometimes but not always also me) which - after being approved as required - lands on my desk to get turned into the actual blueprints* from which the set etc will be built (at the most basic level, that's what Set Designers do - create the documents required to build something, for real, and shepherd it through construction). Since that's where the rubber meets the road in terms of actually making the given item happen, that's also where a lot of necessary revisions, improvements, and concessions to shooting requirements and budgetary realities get dealt with, too. Sometimes you can release documents that are basically verbatim, frequently you wind up doing a fair amount of redesign, particularly as various department heads get a look at exactly what it is they're going to have to work with, and the director wants further input, etc.

Although projects like Avatar are a little bit different: for example the same set of design data will serve as concept art, and to generate working drawings, and get shot over to animators for their use.

One effect of digital production technology is that the who-does-what along the production pipeline is getting more blurred all the time. Which suits me, just fine.

That's the Set Design end of it. Art Direction is a different story, but I didn't Art Direct on this one.

Chamber005 said:
I don't blame Cameron for the marketing or what's been happening the past few weeks leading up to Avatar's release, but the desperation of constant (and I mean CONSTANT) ads made me finally just not want to see the movie. I want to pay them back for trying to brainwash me and my friends, and I think that's fair.
Click to expand...

Okay. Avoid the movie, enjoy your payback, and be a fair person. But quit bellyaching about it. Your responses to a work that you aren't even going to see just don't seem to be of very much practical value in a thread which exists as a forum for people to...discuss their responses to the work.




*in the figurative sense; actual for-real blueprints are a rapidly fading memory in the entertainment business
 
Last edited:
This is funny...
IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later.
I AGREE
 
Sad Max said:
Okay. Avoid the movie, enjoy your payback, and be a fair person. But quit bellyaching about it. Your responses to a work that you aren't even going to see just don't seem to be of very much practical value in a thread which exists as a forum for people to...discuss their responses to the work.
Click to expand...

You must not have read my posts. I said I am going to see it, but I refuse to support it (and for me supporting a movie is seeing it opening night and then purchasing the Bluray/DVD).

So I think it's perfectly fine and does provide practical value to discuss expectations and marketing ploys prior to actually seeing the film.

And, honestly, judging by the overall reviews from people here, my expectations regarding the film appear to be right on the nose: Wonderful CGI, decent script.

The mere fact that even thinking to speak of Avatar in any other terms but praise would be considered "bellyaching" just proves my earlier point about the grotesque aggressiveness of this movie's campaigning.

Again, I supported Final Fantasy because of its progression of CGI animation. I was there opening night and I own the DVD. But BECAUSE of the animation people and critics rejected that movie out-of-hand whereas with this movie it's like they've all been brainwashed to bow down and give thanks.

Bottom line, if the movie was really a miraculous achievement of storytelling they wouldn't have to use such aggressive marketing ploys. They would use traditional marketing and the people would speak out.

In the end we'll see what the weekend box office says. Either people are feeling put-upon the way I've been feeling or they're all falling in line to see it. The numbers don't lie. The production house and their media frenzy will try to spin it if it is less than expected, but if the numbers essentially don't break every box office record, this 500 million dollar movie could be in trouble.

And, for the record, this movie cannot be compared to Titanic because Titanic's audience was completely different than Avatar's. Titanic got the soap-opera gals and tweens filing in who then saw it again and again and again. They saw it again and again because of the catharsis, not for the (spoiler!!!!) Titanic's sinking.

From the reviews coming back, Avatar doesn't seem to have that element of catharsis like Titanic or The Dark Knight. So the only second-time viewers that it will get are the people interested in CGI animation.

So again, the movie needs AT LEAST The Dark Knight or Spiderman or Pirates of the Carribean or Twilight numbers in the opening weekend in order to be considered (by our most common Hollywood standards), a financial success.
 
Last edited:
I thought it was great. Definitely worth seeing in IMAX 3d. Very cool world created, and the characters were interesting enough. Not the most creative plot elements, but at least there were no groan-inducing moments.

Just curious, did anyone else see the preview for the 3d imax Hubble telescope documentary? Live action 3d looks amazing
 
Last edited:
Bottom line, if the movie was really a miraculous achievement of storytelling they wouldn't have to use such aggressive marketing ploys. They would use traditional marketing and the people would speak out.
Click to expand...

Agressive marketing is in response to how much they spent on it. They want to ensure that as much people are psyched to see the movie as possible so that they make their money back. It's a business. Being lazy about marketing and not giving it a huge push isn't going to help anything. They have to get butts in the seats. Don't judge a movie by its marketing campaign... or lack of one.

The fact that you're talking about it shows that the campaign has already worked. You are aware of the movie and you will see it eventually.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top