Audio Post-Production

Z

ZoomStrat

New member
Hi, I'm new to the forum. I've read and searched on here quite a bit, so please forgive me and send me a link if I ask a question already covered.

I'm new to video. I have several years of experience in recording and mixing audio, mostly with Pro Tools, and about 50 hours with Cubase (MUCH prefer Pro Tools).

I'm coming into a situation where there is already cameras and video editing software (Vegas), but NO provisions for audio, only the mics built into the cameras (Panasonic AG-DVC20). I want to record quality audio to separate tracks and mix it after the shoot.

I've seen several mentions of Boom Recorder, and it sounds like a nice program. However, what I could not see was if you can mix with BR, and how good the mixing is (compared to something like Pro Tools). If you cannot mix in BR, are the audio files easily transferrable to audio mixing software?

Is BR usable in Windows?

If you cannot use BR in Windows, is there a multitrack system out there that costs significantly less money than a Pro Tools setup ($1200 for the Digi 003 Rack with included Pro Tools software)? If the answer is Cubase, then no thanks...I can't abide their user interface and the quality of the effects plugins that come with the system.

Will I need to provide sync options for the audio recording and the cameras (the cameras record to internal DV tape)? I plan to mix the audio, then bring it into Vegas and "marry" it to the video, then edit the video. Will I have problems with getting it to sync (assuming I know enough not to slide audio regions around in the audio software)? Say I was recording a live event over the course of 2 hours, and I mixed the audio, then brought the stereo track into Vegas and sync'd the beginning of the event up, would it run out of sync later during the timeline of the event?

I don't even know if the Panasonic AG-DVC20 will interface with timecode. Does anyone know this? There's nothing in the manual about it.

Thanks for any help. I know this is a long post with many questions. If someone can answer even one question, that'll help me a bunch. Thanks.
 
As far as I know BR is mac only. Don't know windows aps so cant help there. BR is basically a Deva replacement in software (sort of) it is for production recording not mixing. You can get the "educational" version of protools for ~$150 (works with M-Audio hardware).
BR records in to standard file formats so yes very easily transportable.

Two hour takes should have everyone locked to some sort of word clock. Will you drift? probably. Will it be significant? no way to really tell till you've done it. Digital recorders are all pretty much self resolved BUT the quality of the clocks varies widely. For film size takes you will probably never have a problem unless one of the devices is in need of repair. But even a small error will add up over time and after a couple of hours you could be out far enough to tell. Why would you "mix" the audio and then edit the video? Concert footage, maybe? Is Vegas so lame that your limited to two tracks of audio? Seems you would want to marry the production audio to picture, edit video, export the audio to something like protools and "mix" in PT.

Oh Nuendo is cross platform but it's way over your price point. I don't think your going to find a very good solution at the price you want to hit. $30K is steep for a DAW and what the going rate for a functional (16 track) DAW was ten years ago.
 
ZoomStrat said:
...
I'm coming into a situation where there is already cameras and video editing software (Vegas), but NO provisions for audio, only the mics built into the cameras (Panasonic AG-DVC20). I want to record quality audio to separate tracks and mix it after the shoot.

...
Will I need to provide sync options for the audio recording and the cameras (the cameras record to internal DV tape)? I plan to mix the audio, then bring it into Vegas and "marry" it to the video, then edit the video. Will I have problems with getting it to sync (assuming I know enough not to slide audio regions around in the audio software)? Say I was recording a live event over the course of 2 hours, and I mixed the audio, then brought the stereo track into Vegas and sync'd the beginning of the event up, would it run out of sync later during the timeline of the event?

I don't even know if the Panasonic AG-DVC20 will interface with timecode. Does anyone know this? There's nothing in the manual about it.

...
Click to expand...

Vegas actually got its start as a multitrack audio DAW application and is still a good choice for audio editing/mixing as well as video. There's no need to go to another application for the audio portion of your project, expecially if you couple it with Soundforge for any actual waveform-level editing that may be required. Current versions of Vegas & Soundforge together would provide all the tools you need to do both the audio and video parts of your project from beginning to end.

AFAIK, the DVC20 don't have I/O for external timecode or genlock. To maintain sync over a 2 hour long continuous take there's a good chance that the sample clock frequencies in the cameras and your audio recorder will be far enough apart that they'll gradually drift out of sync. This can be avoided by the use of a common timebase such as Lockit boxes, as is commonly done with broadcast concert productions, but the cameras chosen for your project don't allow for external sync. But think it through - do you really plan to record the whole show as one continuous audio take and leave it like that without editing out anything between numbers? That would be highly unusual indeed. I think you'll find you'll be reestablishing sync a number of times through the course of the show anyway as superfluous stuff is cut from the audio.

HTH
 
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I think I'll try out some demos of some recording software, and explore my options. I just hope to find something that is comparable to Pro Tools in user interface and quality of included effects plugins.

I'd love to go with Pro Tools, but it's such a price jump from Pro Tools LE (16 tracks simultaneous recording) to Pro Tools HD (I want 40 tracks simultaneous recording).

Yes, during a two hour event, I would definitely want to make edits which would allow me to resync the A to the V. Good idea, whomever said that. Why didn't I think of that already?

I appreciate the help, guys. Thanks for helping a newbie out.

Oh, I'm pretty sure Vegas only allows 4 video and 4 audio tracks. That's all I could insert into a project at once.
 
Just curious why would you need 40 tracks of simultanious recording?? Being an audio engineer first (videographer second) I've never needed more than the 16 tracks pro tools LE offers, (digi002) I would say the most limiting thing about protools LE is the 32 tracks, and no more, when mixing in post. But as far as sixteen tracks when tracking that has always been plenty for me? Curious what your game plan is?
 
ZoomStrat said:
I...
Oh, I'm pretty sure Vegas only allows 4 video and 4 audio tracks. That's all I could insert into a project at once.
Click to expand...

Not true - Vegas supports unlimited video and audio tracks. You're thinking of Vegas Movie Studio, which is the home user / hobbyist product, Vegas 'lite.' The full Vegas Pro product is another story.

See ...

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/product.asp?PID=457&PageID=107

and

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/product.asp?PID=457&PageID=110
 
dlang...I'm at a church, and our live sound mixer is a 40 channel board with direct outs for every channel. I want to be able to record the entire board to separate tracks without having to think about whether I really can make it with 24 or 32 tracks (plugging and unplugging for different event situations), or, God forbid, having to try to think about plugging and unplugging DURING the event.

I don't understand why Pro Tools doesn't provide an in between option. You can get the Digi 003 Rack and necessary preamps to record 16 tracks for roughly $1800. But, to record 40 tracks it jumps to somewhere around $15,000, and that doesn't even include pre's to record sources not ran through a mixer first. Seems like there could be an option for around $5,000.

Steve House...thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I have Vegas "Lite". I'll research my options with Vegas "Real".
 
I think your a bit delusional to think your going to get 40 tracks of recording with mic pre's for $5,000. First off that's one thick pipe. There aren't many options out there even in the pro field and you want a consumer one? Most recording set ups I've seen that large are either using very expensive equipment or are using multiple synced recorders. And $15k won't get you 40 inputs with an HD system. BR can handle the track count but you would still need to get interfaces. And you can't just add them together. THey have to be compatible and you generally top out at two - three boxes, which will leave you short.
I think your turning what should be a straight forward project into a nightmare that is going to be a BIG pain in operation. If you feel you really need to record all 40 channels all the time, go get a DASH recorder.
 
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I thought there is something called lightpipe that doubles the inputs of protools systems. I can't remember where I read about it a while ago but it suppose to let you double the inputs using there hardware which was reasonably priced. I never needed that many inputs so I haven't tried it myself.
Good Luck
 
Over at my church, we also have a 40 channel Midas Verona mixing console. I'm always asked to bring my gear in to record the events. One of the biggest was during Vicky Beeching's touring early November. One of the most complex projects I've ever done was recording choirs, an almost full assemble orchestra, and several wireless feeds totaling to about 32 channels. Considering we didn't have a separate ISO snake, I had to patch right into the Direct Outs of the board and it worked fine. During the time I used 2x MOTU interfaces with 2x additional ADAT interfaces to get 32 channels. You should be okay in doing this, but you definitely need some sort of sync device.
 
Michael T said:
I thought there is something called lightpipe that doubles the inputs of protools systems. I can't remember where I read about it a while ago but it suppose to let you double the inputs using there hardware which was reasonably priced. I never needed that many inputs so I haven't tried it myself.
Good Luck
Click to expand...

Light pipe is Alesis's term for an eight channel optical connection, it may be generic now but they started it. Basically it is the same connector as a SPidif optical but sends eight channels up to 48/24 over the optical cable. Many devices have the option so that they could talk to Alesis 8 track recorders.

On 8 channel digi hardware if you use the optical as a light pipe connection you end up with 16 I/O (8 analog 8 light pipe). You need a analog to light pipe adapter to go out to a mixer and light pipe only changes your 2 channel SPidif to an 8 channel. Le is stuck at 16. Now it seems poss that with the "M powered" you might be able to get more using the M Audio hardware? but probably not.

For TDM you would need three 96 I/O's or two 192 I/O's with extra cards. You might be able to configure a single 192 I/O for 32 tracks if you used all input cards but probably not.
 
Alan H. Chang said:
Over at my church, we also have a 40 channel Midas Verona mixing console. I'm always asked to bring my gear in to record the events. One of the biggest was during Vicky Beeching's touring early November. One of the most complex projects I've ever done was recording choirs, an almost full assemble orchestra, and several wireless feeds totaling to about 32 channels. Considering we didn't have a separate ISO snake, I had to patch right into the Direct Outs of the board and it worked fine. During the time I used 2x MOTU interfaces with 2x additional ADAT interfaces to get 32 channels. You should be okay in doing this, but you definitely need some sort of sync device.
Click to expand...

Did you use the Digital Performer software? Which Motu interfaces did you use? And did you use the audio to edit together with video? Did you use different software to the mix the audio and edit the video?




On another note...

I videotaped a 2 hour Christmas event, and recorded audio from the stereo feed from the house mixer to a DVD recorder (the only thing I could come up with on a short notice). I then captured the video from the cameras to the computer, imported the audio, and got to work.

Did someone mention drift? Since the event was highly musical in nature, I needed to make sure the two camera feeds were in sync before I started editing them together. Well, I started doing this (sliding the video regions to match them up), and figured out they were going noticeably out of sync at about TWO MINUTE INTERVALS. This would mean I would need to make a about SIXTY resync edits, each of them taking me around five minutes. This was before any consideration of the separately recorded audio. Wow. What a bust.
:violent5:
 
ZoomStrat said:
dlang...I'm at a church, and our live sound mixer is a 40 channel board with direct outs for every channel. I want to be able to record the entire board to separate tracks without having to think about whether I really can make it with 24 or 32 tracks (plugging and unplugging for different event situations), or, God forbid, having to try to think about plugging and unplugging DURING the event.

I don't understand why Pro Tools doesn't provide an in between option. You can get the Digi 003 Rack and necessary preamps to record 16 tracks for roughly $1800. But, to record 40 tracks it jumps to somewhere around $15,000, and that doesn't even include pre's to record sources not ran through a mixer first. Seems like there could be an option for around $5,000.

Steve House...thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I have Vegas "Lite". I'll research my options with Vegas "Real".
Click to expand...

hmmmmm... a church huh?? It always makes me laugh at the intense setups churches have these days. Big Programs(: I know this is a less than ideal situation, but if you really prefer using protools you could literally purchase 2 003 racks setups for around 5k. If you already have one computer you can take that out of the cost. Really it sucks you can't daisy chain 002 or 003's, why digi(: So anyhow here is what is would be prices out.

003r= $1,200 x2 = total of $2,400

m-audio octane 8 channel mic pre w/lightpipe= $600 x 2= total $1,200

that leaves you with about 1,400 dollars to get two PC's to run the software.

Obviously this solution only gives you 32 independent channels but this is really the biggest and cheapest (under 5k) you could go. After tracking you could then dump all of the audio files into one protools session for mixing. Remember that protools only handles 32 tracks when mixing anyways, unless make the big jump to an HD system. I'm really hoping that changes soon. With all these powerful computers coming out there is no reason we should be stuck with 32 tracks on a host based system, we'll see.
 
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Since we are talking about churches and sound equipment.. my church has a fully digital 80-channel Innova Son mixer.. actually we have two, one for PA and one for TV-sound. Each one of them cost about 600.000 NOK, or approximately 107 000 USD :):) That's some fine sound equipment!

To threadstarter, why the frack do you need 40 channels? I don't think you really need that.. If so, you should rather have a dedicated sound board hooked up to a splitter and let a guy mix the sound for video, like we do on TV, than a recording device able to record 40 inputs simultaneously, for you to mix in post.
 
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FWIW I once used 15 of 16 inputs tracking a band on my PT HD system. I could imagine going 24 or so if it was a group with a lot of players. Even covering 16 inputs with good preamps is a very expensive proposition.

People that use 40, 50 or more inputs are usually people with EXTREMELY well equipped studios with tons of analog outboard gear. They use all the extra IO essentially perma-patch in all their gear, so they can do a hardware insert with the click of a mouse (or button).
 
Noiz2 said:
You might be able to configure a single 192 I/O for 32 tracks if you used all input cards but probably not.
Click to expand...

It maxes out at 16 analog ins with its analog input expansion card. It will take only ONE expansion card, so it can be either 16 in/8 out or 8 in/16 out.

But if you use the "Legacy" connector to attach two interfaces from the previous generation (hence the name), like two Digidesign 888/24s (readily available used on ebay for about $500 apiece), then, along with the input expander, it will do 32 in/24 out. I have that setup for my rig (but with one Apogee AD8000 and one 888/24, and an output expander instead of an input expander).

This still requires a TDM Pro Tools system though, which will be about $10,000 or so just for the card and one 192.

The best bang for the buck in a big multichannel DAW hardware rig, IMO, is the MOTU stuff. Four 828MkIIs would yield 32 line ins and 8 mic/line ins for about $2900 in hardware costs. There's also their 24 I/O, which is as its name suggests. Not sure of the price.

http://www.motu.com/

Then you'd need a compatible PC DAW to run it. I'm not a PC guy, so I don't know what to recommend, but I'm sure there's something reasonable available.

Best of luck.
 
Ted Spencer said:
It maxes out at 16 analog ins with its analog input expansion card. It will take only ONE expansion card, so it can be either 16 in/8 out or 8 in/16 out.
Click to expand...

Sorry your right. For some reason I was thinking there were four. I have a 96 and there are four panels. I know in the 96 those are just there but I was thinking in the 192 you could fill them all. Oh well.
 
alekstef said:
To threadstarter, why the frack do you need 40 channels? I don't think you really need that.. If so, you should rather have a dedicated sound board hooked up to a splitter and let a guy mix the sound for video, like we do on TV, than a recording device able to record 40 inputs simultaneously, for you to mix in post.
Click to expand...


For the same reason audio recording studios don't record bands through a live sound mixer and only record the stereo channel: You can ALWAYS improve the product, and usually vastly, with editing and mixing during post production. I used to go to a church that had a setup just like what you're suggesting...and the sound on the video was always much worse than the quality of the video. I tried to get them to switch to an audio recording setup to accompany their video, but no luck.

Of course, if you are broadcasting live, then you don't have the luxury of post production. I've had years of experience running live sound, and I sure wouldn't want the job of trying to make live sound be as good as something mixed and edited.
 
dlang said:
hmmmmm... a church huh?? It always makes me laugh at the intense setups churches have these days. Big Programs(: I know this is .
Click to expand...


It makes you laugh? we have a praise team taking up 16-20 channels, and then you have the choir mics, the mics for the different speakers, and all of the different inputs for the stereo audio feeds. In short, about the same as any production involving a large musical group with a choir, emcees, and multiple music sources.
 
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