Audio Popping/ Cracking???

MattRobertson said:
Well the nature of things I record does have me worried :(

I film sports mostly, as well as rap concerts (very loud), events, etc. However there are some instances where I do more artistic, controlled things, as well as music videos, but the lot of my stuff is done in pretty loud environments. I'm tempted to get the hmc, pick up a zoom h4 or something, and get a nice xlr mic. But then that brings up even more issues. Problems with synching audio, mounting the h4, bringing along extra batteries for that, etc. I just wish panasonic wouldn't have skimped on the audio on this unit.
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Well, that's the trick with any equipment... matching it to your real needs. The HMC might not be for you, regardless of other benefits, if the built-in mics don't handle situations in which you will likely be using them. I do think, as I've said, there are pretty cheap and easy ways around this... but only you know where the thin line between convenient solution and pain in the butt lies for your situation...
 
MattRobertson said:
Well the nature of things I record does have me worried :(

I film sports mostly, as well as rap concerts (very loud), events, etc. However there are some instances where I do more artistic, controlled things, as well as music videos, but the lot of my stuff is done in pretty loud environments. I'm tempted to get the hmc, pick up a zoom h4 or something, and get a nice xlr mic. But then that brings up even more issues. Problems with synching audio, mounting the h4, bringing along extra batteries for that, etc. I just wish panasonic wouldn't have skimped on the audio on this unit.
Click to expand...
If you make professional recordings, I don't understand why you would be relying on the built in mic of the HMC.

Me, with my old DVX, I rarely used the built in mic. And when I did, it was as a second audio channel for ambient sound.

And I try to have most of the time 2 sound sources when it's possible. And sometimes it's via the second cameraman!

And has Barry Green said and tested, the HMC built in mic is similar to the HPX and way better than the DVX.
 
I think the bottom line is,
No other camera does this..not even $300 cameras.

I understand what My Green has said, although I disagree with his methods of testing for the following reasons:

1) He tested 2" from a sub woofer (that does not parallel the conditions we were under,
I would say many were at least 4 feet from a sound device)

2) He did not test in a live event type of situation.
(If he were in a live event situation, it would better allow him to understand that the
situations this has happened under were not EXTREEM, but general live type settings)

Again, I understand the thought that this type of mic is not the best suited for high SPL's,
however, I feel that saying this is "FIXED", is far from a solution.

If no other camcorder does this in the same environment, then this mic, regardless of the explanation, is not acceptable.

I have not hear this issue since the one time I had the problem, but I am having an event this weekend, and I will be sure to listen. I don't really expect to hear it as I will be doing extra to prevent it.

I think it is too soon, without enough testing to say it is FIXED.
 
Who said this is fixed?

And in booggerg2's video, he is closer than 4 feet when it's clipping. He is so close to the drum that doing this with my ear would probably damage it!

I agree that Barry's test is not similar to what we get here. Maybe putting the camera near a drum player would be more similar.
 
SPrimeau said:
If you make professional recordings, I don't understand why you would be relying on the built in mic of the HMC.

Me, with my old DVX, I rarely used the built in mic. And when I did, it was as a second audio channel for ambient sound.

And I try to have most of the time 2 sound sources when it's possible. And sometimes it's via the second cameraman!

And has Barry Green said and tested, the HMC built in mic is similar to the HPX and way better than the DVX.
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I won't be using the internal mic, but I thought this happened with external mics as well?
 
SPrimeau said:
Who said this is fixed?

And in booggerg2's video, he is closer than 4 feet when it's clipping. He is so close to the drum that doing this with my ear would probably damage it!

I agree that Barry's test is not similar to what we get here. Maybe putting the camera near a drum player would be more similar.
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Post 172 says...FIXED

...

Yes the drum video is very close, but when it happend to me, the camera was in the back of a room in the corner, about 18 -20 feet from the talent, and listening to the audio, it clearly was not loud other than the clipping.

The hand held camera (canon) less than a foot from the talent, had no such issue.
 
Corners = bass buildup! Not a surprise!

172 refers to a broken link, not the sound issue, being fixed.
 
I recorded a band with an Sony HC-1 with an NTG-2 shotgun mic and the levels were set properly, and the mic clipped - wrong tool

I shot a wedding reception with the HMC-150 and the same NTG-2 and walked by a loud speaker with the levels well within limits, and the mic clipped - wrong tool for that situation.

I know that I am going to sound like a jerk, and I am being one a little bit :) But those pro XLR connectors are on the camera for a reason, and that is so that you can attach pro mics to them for the right situations. You do not mic a drum with a condenser mic at close range - period. The internal mic is for family videos or an occasional talking head/news situation where it doesn't matter.

I have PM'd Jan about this and she says that no professionals have been claiming issues in this regard. Barry has given us a nice comparison that shows other world standard cameras failed first. The only time that the issue raised its head on me was MY fault, not the camera. The tolerances with the limiter, etc. may not be to everyone's liking, but it is still within professional standards, especially for a $3500 HD camera.

Green Lantern, I believe that you are having an issue, and perhaps you do have a problem and need to send your camera in for maintenance. But this thread while initially useful, is doing nothing but scaring people from buying this camera for no reason. Bottom line is this is a great camera and the audio works fine if you do it right.

Educate yourselves with condenser mics, dynamic mics, various patterns, SPL tolerances and mic placement so that you are using the right tools. Set the levels on the camera properly and you are not going to have any issues. Do this wrong, and we all know that you are going to have problems regardless of the camera because audio is a delicate art that is often overlooked in video but is just as important as the image.
 
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Blah, blah, blah blah...


Again, I understand about mics and spls ( I use to be a sound designer and custom car stereo installer for competition cars at ISACA events, and have won many sound quality events in the late 80's early 90's).

From the high amount of users experiencing this issue, I feel as if it should be looked into.
When it has been done by Panasonic or others who do a satisfactory, like situation test(s).
Then I will be satisfied with the findings.

Until then, explaining the obvious, to me is not helpful.

I have shot video, and have done pro sound (boom op) for the last 10 years.
I have never had this issue without it being obvious as to why.
If no other camera system does this, then that should be the standard.

The standard should not be that you can never use a Panasonic camera for live recording without first getting a different mic.
 
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To those whose HMC 150 is affected with this audio issue, would like to know , what u guys did for the countermeasure ? or any methods to run around it ?

My DVX have this problem too.. and I have been correcting it in Audition since the past. The quality is terribly affected after the correction. Since I don't know of other better method to save the audio. Internal and external mics are affected too.

Seen mostly guys who complained here are related to HMC 150 ? what about PAL land HMC 152 ? any of you guys affected too ??
 
wseng said:
To those whose HMC 150 is affected with this audio issue, would like to know , what u guys did for the countermeasure ? or any methods to run around it ?

My DVX have this problem too.. and I have been correcting it in Audition since the past. The quality is terribly affected after the correction. Since I don't know of other better method to save the audio. Internal and external mics are affected too.

Seen mostly guys who complained here are related to HMC 150 ? what about PAL land HMC 152 ? any of you guys affected too ??
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Good points!

I've been recording live bands and getting around the issue by using a digital sound recorder.

I haven't had the time to experiment, (time i$ money) and needed to get a quick fix.

This weekend I'm going to an open mic jam as I'm also a musician. I may get the opportunity to experiment with mics & methods there.

I'm really feeling the SPL issue is related to the mics used. But, also "some" have complained about line levels from outboard mixers, and external mics have rendered the same nasty clipping.

So far we haven't had anyone having "real world" situations, and an arsenal of equipment to test.

I have both! I guess its time. I was hoping someone would do all the hard work for me! LOL

Ok..OK already!! I'll do it this weekend. Sheeesh...Just when I thought I'd have a weekend off!:violin:
 
ronedee said:
So far we haven't had anyone having "real world" situations, and an arsenal of equipment to test.:
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Hey! I have, and have reported in detail on both real-world and controlled testing; the issues are clear. Some gain stages, likely after the mic "boost" and before the gain dials, are a little easy to overload. Solutions are clear, though not as convenient as some people may want.
 
ullanta said:
Hey! I have, and have reported in detail on both real-world and controlled testing; the issues are clear. Some gain stages, likely after the mic "boost" and before the gain dials, are a little easy to overload. Solutions are clear, though not as convenient as some people may want.
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Read in previous posts that you have suggested using different kinds of mics with higher spl . and not using a shotgun ..

What about those who have shot some events with these nasty clippings ? how to cure it ??

Read somewhere about an Attenuator (ATT), something to plug in between the camera and the mic. Would that be useful enough to settle this problem ?
 
wseng said:
Read in previous posts that you have suggested using different kinds of mics with higher spl . and not using a shotgun ..
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Right - the right mic for the right job! Some shotguns with low sensitivity or built-in pads might be fine. The idea is a low output mic for loud situations, or in-line attenuators (pads) as you mention below if the mics are too hot.

What about those who have shot some events with these nasty clippings ? how to cure it ??
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There's no one good way - and in many cases, no way at all. It's really something you have to avoid in recording, anything done in post will severely compromise audio quality.

Read somewhere about an Attenuator (ATT), something to plug in between the camera and the mic. Would that be useful enough to settle this problem ?
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Yup - either attenuators, mics with a built-in pad, or a mic with a low-enough sensitivity that it doesn't overload the HMC inputs.
 
ullanta said:
What mics are you using?
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No mic haha, i'm just trying to figure out if I get the HMC that i'll be able to dodge the audio problems and still have usable audio. You're probably gonna say to use a mic that can handle a high SPL level right? So if shotgun mics aren't the answer for this kind of situation, filming a high school basketball game, what mic would be best for an environment that loud and the type of audio that would be coming (fans, court, etc)
 
I think you're unlikely to run into trouble in any case at a typical basketball game. Note that I've said little since my testing about the SPL that the mic can handle; I'm pretty sure the issue is in the camera, and the point is to get a mic with a low output (low sensitivity) for very load situations. Certainly, having the pads you specified handy in your audio kit is always a good idea. But this is all blown a little out of proportion, and the issue has only arisen in two circumstances:

1) Recording in EXTREMELY loud settings, such as small club musical performances at deafening levels
2) Recording with external audio equipment that puts out too high a line level signal for the HMC to handle

1) Might indeed be an insurmountable issue with the built-in mics, but can easily be addressed with external mics, pads and/or mixers
2) Is easily solvable by properly calibrating or at worst using pads such as those you've specified.

Again, for almost any situation EXCEPT a very loud musical club, there has not to my knowledge been any reported problems with the built-in mics.
I reported problems with a line-level feed, which I was able to address through calibration.
 
Green Hornet said:
Blah, blah, blah blah...


Again, I understand about mics and spls ( I use to be a sound designer and custom car stereo installer for competition cars at ISACA events, and have won many sound quality events in the late 80's early 90's).

From the high amount of users experiencing this issue, I feel as if it should be looked into.
When it has been done by Panasonic or others who do a satisfactory, like situation test(s).
Then I will be satisfied with the findings.

Until then, explaining the obvious, to me is not helpful.

I have shot video, and have done pro sound (boom op) for the last 10 years.
I have never had this issue without it being obvious as to why.
If no other camera system does this, then that should be the standard.

The standard should not be that you can never use a Panasonic camera for live recording without first getting a different mic.
Click to expand...

The built in mic is an omnidirectional built in mic, it is NOT intended for professional use! It should never be used as a primary sound recording. Only as a second option.

I did get similar results with a NTG-2 mic with a DVX100 when recording close to a speaker. In this case, it is obvious that it is the SPL of the mic that is the issue.

But I agree that Panasonic should make some tests and advertise the maximum SPL of the built in mic.
 
SPrimeau said:
In this case, it is obvious that it is the SPL of the mic that is the issue.
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Actually, this is not the case. It is obviously a mismatch of the output level of the mic and the headroom of some stage of the camera's mic inputs.

First, the kind of distortion we're hearing doesn't sound like mic distortion, it sounds like clipping. The sounds are distinct.

Second, you can't tell where the distortion is without more information. Is it the capsule itself incapable of handling the SPL? Is it that the mic electronics can't handle the signal level the capsule is outputting? Is it that the camera preamp can't handle the signal level coming out of the mic? Is it that the converters can't handle the signal level coming out of the preamp? Any of these - and more, which we just don't have enough detail about the HMC internals to suggest - can be the culprit when you hear distortion.

I would guess that the mics are not the problem in most of these cases, either internal mics or external mics. If human beings are in the same situation and not bleeding from the ears, mic distortion is not the most likely culprit. And, as I said, the sound doesn't sound like mic distrotion.

Since the problem occurs with internal mics, external mics, and external line-level sources, the problem can likely be attributed to an internal camera stage between the "boost from mic to line level" and the gain dials. The problem clearly comes before the gain dials, since lowering gain doesn't get rid of it.

A mic with low sensitivity helps not because the mic signal is distorted, but because it outputs a lower level signal than a higher-sensitivity mic in the same situation. This lower-level signal is less likely to cause this mystery internal component in the HMC to clip.
 
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