C100: Audio for Run N' Gun

Eric Coughlin

Eric Coughlin

Veteran
Would you recommend manual or automatic gain for audio when doing run n' gun work?

This question is both if you are using the top handle with a shotgun attached, making manual audio adjustments easier, as well as using just a mic (such as the Rode Video Mic Pro) plugged into the mini-jack for a smaller setup. Obviously without the top handle you have to go into the menu system to change the levels which makes it more difficult on a fast paced shoot. I found with DSLRs I got considerably better results (such as during wedding preparations) with setting the audio manually, but since the C100 has significantly better pre-amps, and perhaps better auto gain control, that it may not be necessary to manually set the levels in a fast paced environment.

Also regarding the top handle, is the audio any better through the top handle (using XLRs) vs through the mini-jack, or is the quality the same? I have an Audio Technica 875r (Phantom Powered) and a Rode Videomic Pro, so I was wondering what would be more likely to get better quality. Having the top handle also allows for higher end shotguns which typically are XLR and require Phantom Power. I'm considering a Sanken CS-3E down the road and was wondering if using that in the top handle would be much better sound for run n' gun than a Rode Video Mic Pro into the mini-jack.

With DSLRs I would typically set the Rode Video Mic Pro to +20db so the pre-amps would not have to be used as much in the camera; is this not recommended for the C100 since the pre-amps are much better than DSLRs, or would the +20db still help so as not to use extra boost from the (already good) C100 pre-amps?
 
minijack vs xlr should be about the same since you're doing short cables.

i got around the minijack levels issue by just assigning a button to that menu, i use the play button since it's never used when shooting, gets me right to the menu to change levels quickly. not as ideal as a physical dial, but not terrible.

manual will always be more consistent, auto can cause noticeable ramping, but if you're jumping between hot and cold situations very rapidly, auto is the way to go. the other option is to split the right and left channel so you can set one gain lower than the other, but wait a sec, you can't do that on this camera.... or at least you can't do it with anything but using just the two xlrs or just the two internal mics.
 
The audio I pick up from the camera on my Run & Gun and conference shoots is just 'wallah' - in this instance, full marks to the US nomenclature. :-)

So this really does work well with auto levels.

Another use is to pick up the inevitable round of applause at the end of some preso or speech. The sound guy will diligently wind down the presenter's lav when this happens, and this does not maketh a nice ending for the edit. As the applause is only going to last 3 seconds plus a 2 second fade, but you have no idea just how loud or quiet it is, again I'll use AGC on this, even a limiter. It's just a sound effect.

Of course it's manual control on anything you have control over.

As Darren's aluded to, there's one nasty issue with the C100 in that you can't do the 'clever' thing of feeding CH1 mic into CH1 & CH2, with CH2 20 dB lower than CH1 (so if there is an overload on CH1, you can 'borrow' from the CH2 backup). Well, you can with a split cable, but not sure how this works with Phantom Powering as I've not tried this yet.

It's an interesting question whether the XLRs are 'better' than the 3.5mm jack. I guess most people haven't tried them both out with the same mic. That's another test I need to do! :-D I'm hoping to get a Rode videomic pro as a run-around ambient mic (again, just for 'wallah' and the occasional spot sound on candids) as lumping my Sanken CS1 in its funny Rycote swing-arm (let alone the 416 with dead cat) is all a bit top-heavy for Run & Gun, and really, the top of a camera is no place for a 'proper' mic! :-D

I wonder what the smallest, neatest mic is for the C100's hot shoe mount and 3.5mm jack? Found this...
 
MattDavis said:
I wonder what the smallest, neatest mic is for the C100's hot shoe mount and 3.5mm jack? Found this...
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Yeah I need an extra small mic as well. Whenever I'm using the C100 on a Glidecam in windy conditions the Rode Video Mic Pro acts as a sail, which makes me want to take it off, and thereby lose all sound. So a smaller mic would be good, even if just for a scratch track. I've had my eye on the rather well known Sennheiser MKE 400 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/534023-REG/Sennheiser_MKE_400_MKE_400_Compact_Video.html) which is also said to get decent audio quality such that it could serve as more than just a scratch track in some cases.
 
Since Youve quoted a wedding instance, so here is my exp with weddings

the shotgun/rode mic on C100 really depends on how you consider SDE (same day edit) for your wedding work

What I mean is, SInce C100 has got 2 channels through XLR, what I usually do is I connect my shotgun (sennheiser 8060, so short) on CH1, and leave the internal on CH2 for backup. during ceremony and reception I connect sennheiser G3 to CH2 for lav, and CH1 still is Shotgun for backup.

In this way, the disadvantage here are

1. the size, Its so Big with shotgun/handle attached. But the sound is better, a lot better since you have a shotgun mic (8060 sound quality is the same as NTG3, only difference is the size).

2. SDE, your editor has to know you have 2 tracks, and they have to seperate them for editing, and fill left/right for stereo. Again, this cost time. But Since C100 files are smoother to edit than 5Ds (so lag when you put any effects on 5d files), and c100 files are smaller than 5Ds (transfer speed is faster, so SDE is faster)

3. still the size, I have experience when I accidentally hit my subjects hair by my fluffy windscreen on 8060 (the RODE WS6), but again, even I mount a 14mm on my C100, I still cant see the windcreen in my frame.



On the other hand, I do own RODE videomic pro as well

Usually what I do is, with viddeomic pro on 3.5 jack, only for situations like street events, or anything that requires ONLY ambient sound. and in my menu I set audio gain at -12 (sometimes -6), and leave Rode Videomic at 0. and when loud things happen, I change to -10 on RODE MIC (I never touch +20). NINJA SETUP ! its as easy to blend in the crowd as 7D or 5D

again, in this situation, I never go into menus to adjust gain.



this is my setup, hopefully it helps.

oh, becareful for handling noises, no matter which setup you have, any handling noise is prominent. So prominent !
 
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That Sennheiser MKH 8060 looks interesting. At 7" it's about the same length as the AT 875r. Is it suitable as a high quality interview and narrative dialog shotgun mic as well? The main advantage I've read about in several places with the Sanken CS-3E shotgun is that it produces good sound both indoors and outdoors, while many other shotguns struggle more so with reflections indoors. The CS-3E is 10", so 3" longer than the MKH 8060. At this point for me, at least, it's more important to upgrade my interview shotgun than my run n' gun shotgun, but ideally I'd get a shotgun that I could use for both. Another advantage of the CS-3E is that it would probably match better with the Sanken Cos 11D.
 
You're really putting expensive mics on a camera? I got the Sennheiser MKE600 and thought it's more than I should spend for on board sound...
(Of camera I use a Sennheiser 416 and a MBHO hyper, sound matters of course...)
 
Why not put an expensive mic on the camera for run n' gun work, especially if you already have one that is used for interviews and such?
 
Eric Coughlin said:
That Sennheiser MKH 8060 looks interesting. At 7" it's about the same length as the AT 875r. Is it suitable as a high quality interview and narrative dialog shotgun mic as well? The main advantage I've read about in several places with the Sanken CS-3E shotgun is that it produces good sound both indoors and outdoors, while many other shotguns struggle more so with reflections indoors. The CS-3E is 10", so 3" longer than the MKH 8060. At this point for me, at least, it's more important to upgrade my interview shotgun than my run n' gun shotgun, but ideally I'd get a shotgun that I could use for both. Another advantage of the CS-3E is that it would probably match better with the Sanken Cos 11D.
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maybe Im picky about audio quality but here is what I do

for Interviews (RUN N GUN), this is so good, but you have to be aware that since the shotgun is pointing horizontally toward the subjects, any background noise will be picked up. this is the same for all shotguns.

so for me, I always have a friend to boom the mic for me when shooting outside. to mount the shotgun on camera is your last choice.

I have experience matching 8060 with countryman b6, or sennheiser mk2, no problem no tweaking at all. I dont know how sanken feels

but here is my exp. 8060 sounds exactly as sennheiser 416, which is industry standard for 15 years already. and it also sounds exactly like ntg3, no one will know the difference.


my suggestion is rent a shotgun ($25 a day, cheap), and feel it yourself.

8060 is always the best choice on C100 for me, it is so short. and its more sensitive than others, which means it reaches further than other shotguns. the best I love is that when my subject is a little off axis, the difference of his sound is minimal.
 
I got the MKH 8060 about a month ago to pair with my C100 (after reading great things about it here on DVXuser) and I absolutely love this little mic. The project I have been working on will be complete in a week or so and then I can share the link. For events it mounts nice and small (with great off axis) but it also works just as well as the 416 on a boom for anything else.
 
Shawnvfx said:
but here is my exp. 8060 sounds exactly as sennheiser 416, which is industry standard for 15 years already. and it also sounds exactly like ntg3, no one will know the difference.
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The Rode NTG-3 shotgun does sound better and has a slightly wider pickup pattern than the Sennheisers.

Comes with a free 10yr warranty and it's cheaper. Great for new folk.

Cheers.
 
Allan Black said:
The Rode NTG-3 shotgun does sound better and has a slightly wider pickup pattern than the Sennheisers.

Comes with a free 10yr warranty and it's cheaper. Great for new folk.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

nothing against rode users. Im not saying NTG 3 is bad in sound quality. its just too big/heavy/long to mount on C100.

for general audience, the audio should be indistinguishble for both mics when mounted on top of camera (since its not a good position)

what im saying is 8060 is portable and light

your argument is off topic.
 
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