Atomos Ninja - Warning - Use only Atomos recommended SSD media and update firmware

Sure, of course, but I imagine it's only a question of time before Atomos tests and certifies these screamers, which have proven high speed sustained writes.
 
mkfotos.com said:
Sure, of course, but I imagine it's only a question of time before Atomos tests and certifies these screamers, which have proven high speed sustained writes.
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Well, all I'm saying is -- just because they're fast, doesn't mean they'll be "compatible". There could be some hardware reason or other that makes them not work in combination with that particular device. And that's the real issue -- is it "compatible" with the Ninja, or not?

I don't want folks going off thinking "well, this is the fastest drive ever tested by tomshardware.com, so of course it'll work" because that's just not true. It has to be tested and certified compatible. It may work, or it may not, and overall speed specs are not the sole determining factor.
 
Well even to add to that, are they even necessary? Isn't a 7200RPM drive more than sufficient for the Ninja? Sure, from a reading standpoint you can get the information off faster, but I don't think from a Ninja standpoint you are going to get any advantage using a drive that supports faster writes than are necessary?
 
Ps, I also like that I just wrote "From a ninja standpoint" :) Even though out of context, that just made me laugh.
 
Rick Burnett said:
Well even to add to that, are they even necessary? Isn't a 7200RPM drive more than sufficient for the Ninja? Sure, from a reading standpoint you can get the information off faster, but I don't think from a Ninja standpoint you are going to get any advantage using a drive that supports faster writes than are necessary?
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pure peace of mind with SSD, much less likely to drop frames due to shock, and yes the offload time of a factor of 3-4 is nice too. though I've heard of amazing results with the way the ninja writes to a spinning disc, and since they are laptop hard drives they withstand shock a lot better. it's kind of a shot in the dark either way, it's just on personal preference. I've seen both types of drives not work straight out of the box. that's the price of consumer grade media. u don't have the guarantee of bullet proof media like from big companies. but the price point justifies all that too.

a great workflow IMHO would be to buy 1 ssd for yourself for ur own shooting and or really high shock and vibration situations, and just buy spinning discs per project for clients, clone the drive, and hand both of them off as the master/backup. and spinning drives are so cheap you can roll to another drive at lunch or even before and hand off a few drives if you don't wanna put all your eggs in one basket.
 
Barry_Green said:
No, only a drive from this list is sufficent for the Ninja. Anything else is playing with unapproved drives.
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You did look at the list right? :) I wasn't saying any 7200RPM drive, I was talking about the performance point of 7200RPM drives. It looks like 5400RPM drives work as well. I agree you should be taking one from the list! SSD write speeds are overkill for the Ninja.

And pertaining to shock, if you're camera is getting him with enough shock to knock the disk head out, I'd be surprised if the shot was even usable! :) But in honesty, I can see the concern there. It's something I would just test a lot and see.

Maybe Atmos can chime in and say if they've done any shock tests and such with the ninja and HDD.
 
Of course I looked at the list -- I read the whole list. Why do you ask?

What I'm saying is -- the list doesn't say "use any 7200rpm drive". It doesn't say "7200rpm drives will work." And the list doesn't care about the "performance point" of 7200rpm drives. I think it's false logic to say "well, if a 5400rpm drive made the list, then by default ANY 7200rpm drive will." Things just don't work that way. They "should", but they don't.

I mean, look at the list -- it flat-out says that you can't use ANY Kingston drive. Doesn't matter what model, doesn't matter what capacity. So if someone came here and said "hey, I'm gonna use my Kingston SSDNow drive with the Ninja, I know it'll work because it's a fast SSD and Atomos says even a 5400RPM Samsung drive will work and my drive is WAY faster than some clunky old 5400RPM spinning disk" -- guess what. Ain't gonna work. And no amount of benchmarks and logic will change that. Some things work, some don't.

So if you're gonna use a Ninja, you should use drives that are on their approved list - period.
 
Barry_Green said:
Of course I looked at the list -- I read the whole list. Why do you ask?

What I'm saying is -- the list doesn't say "use any 7200rpm drive". It doesn't say "7200rpm drives will work." And the list doesn't care about the "performance point" of 7200rpm drives. I think it's false logic to say "well, if a 5400rpm drive made the list, then by default ANY 7200rpm drive will." Things just don't work that way. They "should", but they don't.

I mean, look at the list -- it flat-out says that you can't use ANY Kingston drive. Doesn't matter what model, doesn't matter what capacity. So if someone came here and said "hey, I'm gonna use my Kingston SSDNow drive with the Ninja, I know it'll work because it's a fast SSD and Atomos says even a 5400RPM Samsung drive will work and my drive is WAY faster than some clunky old 5400RPM spinning disk" -- guess what. Ain't gonna work. And no amount of benchmarks and logic will change that. Some things work, some don't.

So if you're gonna use a Ninja, you should use drives that are on their approved list - period.
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You are missing the whole point of what I was saying, completely. I NEVER said to use a drive that wasn't on the list, at all. That wasn't what I was pointing out. My whole point was why people were referring to extremely high speed SSD drives when from a writing perspective, it isn't necessary. The OCZ drives, especially the Vertex 2, are known for their write speeds, which is why someone would be tempted to get one in the first place.

"any" was not what I wrote, it was an "a" and it was referring to the fact that 7200RPM drives were listed on their site, and that "a" 7200RPM or even "a" 5400RPM drive works sufficiently with the Ninja, so I don't understand why people are buying extremely high performance write drives in general when they could probably save a LOT of money with an approved 7200/5400 drive off the list and not have any issues.

I think you read some phantom "any" in my post :P I am referring to all drives in the list, and WITHIN that context, comparing SDD to HDD is important, based on price, for me anyways. I already own 2 HDD from the list that I could use with a Ninja.
 
Rick Burnett said:
You did look at the list right? :) I wasn't saying any 7200RPM drive, I was talking about the performance point of 7200RPM drives. It looks like 5400RPM drives work as well. I agree you should be taking one from the list! SSD write speeds are overkill for the Ninja.

And pertaining to shock, if you're camera is getting him with enough shock to knock the disk head out, I'd be surprised if the shot was even usable! :) But in honesty, I can see the concern there. It's something I would just test a lot and see.

Maybe Atmos can chime in and say if they've done any shock tests and such with the ninja and HDD.
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Well, this is a big subject, and we're going to add more to our site over time (there's a whole load of information going up there over the next few days/weeks) but I just wanted to say that our "philosophy" is to be part of the paradigm change that says it's now OK to use commodity media, but that this also puts some responsibility on the buyer. What do I mean by this? We've made the Ninja able to work with very cheap, spinning media, and, yes, we find that 5400 drives work pretty well. But we can't curate all that media. We certainly can't guarantee it if we don't supply it. While this puts more onus on the customer, it also means that they have access to incredibly cheap storage. It's a different way to do things and it's important for people to understand it. If people aren't comfortable with this, then buy a drive from the Ninja dealer (if they sell them) and make sure they come with a guarantee if they don't prove to be suitable - but you'll probably pay more for them that way than if you buy them from the internet, for example.

Now that drives cost the same as tapes, the best thing or Ninja users to do is experiment and find what works for them (and take our guidance as well). Possibly even be prepared to buy one or two spinning drives that don't work brilliantly; but you'll very quickly find something that does work well, and then you can buy them cheaper than we could ever supply them.

By the way, I'm told that some of the latest 5400 drives have the same read/write performance as the last generation of 7200 drives!

Currently we're suggesting that users stick with Western Digital and Hitachi spinning drives.

The situation with SSDs is somewhat different. This is a still-evolving technology and different manufacturers have different priorities and interpretations of performance criteria. We have found very distinct performance differences between SSDs and the companies that make them. For the time being, Ninja users should only buy Intel SSDs.

As far as shock tests are concerned, without going into too much detail, common sense is the best guide. Spinning drives don't like sudden impacts, being shaken or vibrated. Again, if you're not sure, do some trials! We have a number of measures in place to ensure that if a drive does go offline because of harsh conditions, we will resume the recording as soon as possible. Many users have done their own tests and happily use spinning drives where appropriate. Others are using SSDs to great effect.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
As a follow up, have you tested the Intel 510 SSD as well? I know they switched to the Sandibridge I believe on this new model and not their own bridge as the older 300 Series and first gen, and some people have been having similar issues seen on the OCZ and OWC drives that utilize the same (or similar) bridge?
 
this is just a list of what they've actually tested with ninja, right?
That doesn't mean other drives don't work with it, they're just not fully tested on ninja yet.

So you use stuff off the list at your own peril.

Seriously, though, lots of other stuff will work. I know all about hdd and ssd speed as well as reliablity
and some of the stuff on that list isn't best of breed in either way.

But, as with any hardware combo, there can be gremlins.
They should offer the hdd or ssd bundled for those who don't want to be bothered
choosing media(or can't risk it).
 
Thanx guys for all your replies.

Well, a forum like this is to share experiences, that´s exactly what I did, nothing else. Maybe I was wrong when I´ve chosen this not-listed (but not not-recommended) drive, but I am surely not wrong when I say, that a veryfing routine in the software that checks my recorded data and reports an error immediately is an absolute MUST HAVE to protect my work and to make a cameraman feel safe. Recommended drives can have failures too, they can have bad sectors, they can get too warm, they can get shocked and so on. The only thing that I expect from a recording device like this is recording. Safe. That´s it, but it did not - at least not in my special case.

Peace.
 
I may have read a phantom "any" into it, and if so, I apologize. My angle on it was -- don't experiment, and don't take chances with your footage. E-ver. If Atomos has verified certain media, use those.

As chauncy points out, certainly others will work. Or not. Do you want to be the guy who finds out that it doesn't work? I sure don't.

If someone decides that they're gonna use some commodity drive they got off ebay in a brown paper wrapper, well, good luck to 'em. It may even work. But if someone is buying an external recorder because they are after quality, then certainly they'd want to actually make sure that the media they're getting at least actually *works* with the recorder.

Interesting approach Atomos is taking with the "use whatever you want, it's commodity media" approach -- because I can tell you from watching three years of SDHC memory card cameras, and a good eight years of commodity DV tape camcorders, people's first reaction is always to blame the manufacturer, deserved or not. They will accuse the manufacturer of a $5,000 camera of making substandard equipment, when the failure was due to the $2 tape or the $5 ebay-special memory card they used.

I would definitely encourage Atomos, and DVXUsers in general, to keep track of a list of verified/tested high-quality media that works. Let's keep a running tally of what the good stuff is, and what the bad stuff is, so that the members won't get burned with incompatible/substandard media.
 
Authorist said:
Thanx guys for all your replies.

Well, a forum like this is to share experiences, that´s exactly what I did, nothing else. Maybe I was wrong when I´ve chosen this not-listed (but not not-recommended) drive, but I am surely not wrong when I say, that a veryfing routine in the software that checks my recorded data and reports an error immediately is an absolute MUST HAVE to protect my work and to make a cameraman feel safe. Recommended drives can have failures too, they can have bad sectors, they can get too warm, they can get shocked and so on. The only thing that I expect from a recording device like this is recording. Safe. That´s it, but it did not - at least not in my special case.

Peace.
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Again, thanks for your report. And I agree that a recorder must record -- absolutely no question about it, no leeway, no room for error, no margin for doubt.
 
And I definitely agree with you, if you can't take chances, then don't take chances. I come here all the time to find out the success of untested by me hardware and DVXUser has a pretty good track record of not steering me wrong from the user responses.

There should be a troubleshooting sticky with regards to problems, because this is what they generally are:

1) Check your settings. Are you SURE everything is setup right?
2) Check your cables. No, don't just assume they work, swap between 2 or 3 and prove they work. Use other equipment that uses those cables to verify
3) Latest firmware? Make sure, your problem could be addressed
4) Supported media, batteries, interfaces? If not, use supported items to TEST. Make sure something unsupported is not causing your problem.
5) Contact the manufacturer to get help, and/or:
6) Ask Barry Green, as long as it isn't a Mac question, for he probably knows! :) In seriousness, THEN post a question on DVXUser and see if others with the same equipment can offer some help.

The order of 5 and 6 differ for me depending on the problem. Usually I do both because I am in a rush to get an answer!
 
Rick and Barry are right on here, in my view.

The same approach to capturing media applies with equal force to backing up media.

Too often I read here and elsewhere that shooters back up media captured with a $5k cam, and a $2K lens on hard drives purchased at Walmart or Costco.

You are only as strong as your weakest link.

Always important to identify that weakest link, and either strengthen it or adjust to it.
 
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Hmm I just purchased a Ninja and HHDs on B&H, and this was on their suggested recording media accessories section for the Ninja. After looking over Atomos' suggested drives I am not sure if its recommended or not.

If they aren't then I completely hold myself responsible for the mix-up as Atomos clearly states on their site what is recommended, but maybe they should contact B&H about suggesting only drives that they know will work with the Ninja. It wouldn't be fair to Atomos if droves of naive customers bought incompatible drives that were suggested to them on B&H and when they don't work taint Atomos' reputation.

That being said I am happy to try out the drives I bought just to see if they will work or not. David any tips on what to look for or how to put it through its paces?
 
That drive is a 5400 rpm 750 GB TravelStar.

The only 5400 rpm TravelStar is 320GBs a/t Atomos.

Given data acquisition rates, I would venture that no 5400 rpm drive should ever be used.
 
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