C100: Atomos Ninja 2 w/C100 - problems?

F

Flotsam

Active member
I know that there are documented issues here and on the Atomos boards and also DVInfo about intermittent signal loss/record splits and failure to trigger when using the C100 with the Ninja 2. Can anyone on here who has used this combination comment on their experience in the field? Is this issue resolved? Was it simply user/configuration error? I'd love to hear from people who have recent(ish) experience with this and to know whether there is a solution to make this kit combination reliable.

Many thanks
 
Before I sold my Ninja 2 I had some intermittent problems during recording on which I blamed cheap HDMI cables. The problem disappeared with expensive brand name cables. Using a spinning hard drive or an SSD didn't seem to make a difference.
 
Thanks, Drew

That's very helpful, thank you. It's such a shame that the C100 doesn't have HDSDI out. All the other compromises for product differentiation over the C300 make sense and can be dealt with reasonably easily but the HDMI only thing is my big stumbling block...
 
I still use this combo and it seems to work well overall. I have shot 3 different 2 and 1/2 hour dance recitals without major issues. However, it did seem to lose sync once during the intermission where I noticed the image on the Ninja was frozen. It was able to resolve it quickly but I had to re-sync the 3:2 pulldown since I was recording 24P which wasn't easy in a dark theatre.

The other issue had was when the Ninja seemed to reset itself spontaneously and I had to reset the HDMI to respond to Canon. So for 10 minutes on a shoot I had no way of triggering the NInja2 from the C100. I had to do it manually until I discovered the reset. I know it reset because I had renamed the clips to match the shoot and from that moment forward they got renamed Ninja2 again, which is the default name.

It definitely has it's moments where I don't trust it 100%. Having said this, it does what it's supposed to 95% of the time for me. But that 5% chance of something screwing up bugs me. I am glad that I also record to internal SD card just in case.
 
I have used the Ninja2 for some time now. I purchased approved SSD, quality HDMI cables-3 different companies and stay current on firmware updates. I have always experienced some level of failure or "skip pies". It's too bad because this device gives our editors the Avid-ready files they need. Just last week I loaded 4.21 on and ran a test record. After 1:20 I stopped the record and guess what, no broken files. I have an interview to shoot in several hours so we'll see how it goes. I've got my fingers crossed.
 
Ah, now this is the sort of reply I feared. Is there anyone on here who has not had unexpected issues? I'm looking for an external recording solution I can rely on for some critical interviews...
 
I've shot plenty of critical interviews. Before I got the C100, I was shooting on the FS100 and FS700 and before that, EX1Rs - none of which did Dual Record and 'due dilligence' on these jobs meant I had to have a backup recording strategy. I was a little shy of the Atomos Ninja as I'd had issues in the early days. When the time came to purchase my own recorder I went with the Sound Devices Pix220, which - when I finally got to purchasing a couple of 'good' SSDs, seemed rock solid.

Except, to be honest, it wasn't. Sure it was a clever device, but I seemed to find all the obscure bugs in the software. Once recording onto good media, it was generally fine, but dicky cables and dicky media just got it in a tailspin. Meanwhile, the Ninja 2 seemed to be going from strength to strength. Colleagues reported no problems at all, and (wow) it worked nicely with the C100. The Pix has settled down now, and the two glitches I've experienced in the last 2 years have all been on the first frame or two, and I bet that's cable crap again.

The C100 can 'dual record' and an interview does not stress the internal AVCHD codec (from which I've had absolutely no problems at all), so I consider dual recording to SDHC plus a master recording onto the Pix is plenty safe enough. But...

The Pix is a beast. It doesn't really want to mount to the camera like a Ninja can, definitely not a run and gun solution (and run and gun can stress the AVCHD codec mightily). It has awesome audio, but so does the C100 (whereas it was sine qua non with the FS100/700 - mics into Pix, pix into camera audio).

But what it boils down to IMHO is HDMI. HDMI sucks rocks through straws. Fragile connectors that love falling out or getting dirt/dust in the plugs, dicky 1080i to PSF to Progressive issues, limitations on cable length, oddness in the HDMI 'handshake' protocol thingy... I'm kinda done with HDMI.

I've been dithering about selling the Pix and thinking about the Samurai Blade. Have been working with SDI in parallel over the years, and that stuff just seems to work. But then, you have to use the Atomos H2S and somehow balance the weight of that with another NP-F970, and suddenly the weight's too much for a hotshoe, so you need rods and a baseplate and you can't handhold it without doing the full on handles and shoulder-pad... by which time, I may as well stick with the Pix.

So, yeah, Good media, good cables, good times. But HD-SDI from now on.
 
As Matt says, you can at least record to SD cards at the same time as recording to the Ninja 2 - a good safety net.
 
I do always record to the internal cards, in dual record mode to boot, even when recording to Ninja. I guess my IT background and redundancy show through. I would like to comment on my concerns with HDMI being the main interface here. I owned the Atomos Samurai and used it with my Canon XLh1 via HD-SDI and in 2 years I never had a single issue with the unit at all. It worked like a champ. I have had 3-4 issues with the Ninja 2 in the 7-8 months I've had it. It works fine 95% of the time....maybe even more, but I still have my concerns when filming something critical with it as I fear it will drop frames or lose sync spontaneously.

I do wish it was HD-SDI to as the way the cables connect is bunk!
 
LOL, 5% is quite a big number! What if 5% of sandwiches gave you food poisoning? You wouldn't eat sandwiches.

Although I have to say this through gritted teeth, the Panasonic AF101 was a C100 level camcorder which came with HD-SDI, and I think anyone who earns a living from shooting video who's spent more than a year with HDMI would happily add a couple of hundred bucks to the purchase price to get an HD-SDI connector.
 
MattDavis said:
LOL, 5% is quite a big number! What if 5% of sandwiches gave you food poisoning? You wouldn't eat sandwiches.
Click to expand...

Well....I don't know if my bad experiences are akin to food poisoning. They've never ruined a video shoot. But they have caused a brief moment of anxiety and worse case slowed down an interview style shoot by about 10 minutes while I worked through the issues. So I might compare that 5% of the sandwiches were a little stale????? :)
 
I think the comments on the real-world issues when depending on HDMI connections are entirely valid and fair. They also tally with my own experiences, which is one of the main reasons I posed the initial question. For this project, I have decided to continue to rent a C300 simply because I cannot afford to take this kind of risk, when so much international travel, so much money and so much time from some very important people are involved. I may well re-visit a C100/Ninja purchase but only when I have had time for extensive testing first. It's a shame because I do feel that the C300 is heavily over-priced. As I have said, I completely understand that product differentiation is important for Canon with these two cameras and I think that the AVCHD, poorer EVF and LCD and lack of 720p/50 are all reasonable compromises, the HDMI-only aspect of the C100 is a step too far at this price point!
 
It's been said that, "unless your data is in two places, it does not exist." I always record to two devices. If the internal isn't good enough for what you are doing, then you need to upgrade to something that is so you have a backup in case the worst/inevitable happens.

On some shoots, I even run to a third device that a DIT or audio guy can watch.
 
I don't use my Ninja 2 very much because I use a C300 more often and for the most part don't like external recorders very much. The C100 and Ninja 2 is a very good option if you need a better codec but no it's not perfect and of course a failure will always happen when it matters the most. Double roll EVERY TIME.
I've had two issues before. One was on the AF-100. It recorded with interlacing for several clips but then cleared up after a couple clips and worked fine. Very weird. Another was while recording a fireworks show on the 4th of July for a review of the Canon CN-E primes. I had a C300 and C100 going at the same time and using the C100 and Ninja 2 for the wide shot with a 24mm CN-E. A few shots looked strange almost like it was recording a little overcranked. I couldn't figure out what happened and again it wasn't consistent. That shoot was a little crazy so it could have been something I did. Other than those two times the Ninja 2 worked fine. Do I trust it 100%? Nope. For the price and the fact that it triggers from the camera makes it a very good device. I dont know of another recording that works like the Ninja 2 in this price range. The Samurai wont trigger recording with the SDI to HDMI converter but man is that screen nice! The Odyssey7 is amazing but a little to big for portable applications and does not trigger record from HDMI. SDI does.
I don't know of any other external recorder that does trigger record from the C100. That is a must for me. After using the SDI out of the AF-100 and dual triggering both camera and Ninja 2 it got old fast.
 
I agree with Mat Davies when he says 5% is a big number....ifyour tripod worke all but 5% of the time you'dbe eplacing a lot of cameras.

The Ninja 2 is aimed at the Pro market and in these times is cheap in comparison with other recorders but if you cannot rely on it 100% then you can't trust it on critical jobs.

Erik points out a few issues he had with it which casteven more doubt...plus the problems he had...he cannot fathom the reason...evemore worrying.

I bought the Son PHU-60 HD recorder when I bought my Ex3 and thougt happy days for the solution to a long recording format.
Had issues from day 1 that I couldn't explain and then went to two jobs where it gave error messages and lost footage...thought "frig this for a game of conkers" and I sent it back.

ity about the Nnja 2...they may iron things out before the Ninja 3....or maybe Canon will improve the codec in the folowup to the c100.
 
With that. The internal codec is pretty darn good so I don't worry to much about it. It's not a deal breaker if you don't use an external recorder. so the way I look at is double roll and you're good to go. That is the saving grace.
 
I had the problem once, when I first got a C100, but since changing HDMI cables i've shot around 100 sequences with the Ninja 2 / C100 and I'm unable to replicate it. Some of the sequences have been live events with recording times of 1-2 hours. However, I'm not complacent and always record to the SD cards internally as well.

So, for those who are seeing the problem, how often is it happening for you?
 
Exact said:
I had the problem once, when I first got a C100, but since changing HDMI cables i've shot around 100 sequences with the Ninja 2 / C100 and I'm unable to replicate it. Some of the sequences have been live events with recording times of 1-2 hours. However, I'm not complacent and always record to the SD cards internally as well.

So, for those who are seeing the problem, how often is it happening for you?
Click to expand...
What brand of HDMI cable did you buy?
 
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