Atomos and FCP support ProRes RAW for EVA1 and VariCam LT - press release

Razz16mm said:
We've gone rounds on this before, but I disagree. Bayer spatial sampling interpolated to RGB color with high quality algorithms does not produce significantly lower resolution for red and blue channels. It is slightly less than what full discrete color channel sampling would be with a 3-chip camera, but you could not see the difference. Your eyes sample color in the same ratios as a Bayer sensor. My Bolex can easily produce a high resolution 4:4:4 RGB color gamut well beyond current YUV sub sampled video standards. It far exceeds P3, BT.709, and Adobe RGB gamut. Resolution is determined by the full luminance resolution of the sensor, not the color filter pattern. There is no direct comparison to the 50% reduction in actual horizontal pixel resolution for 4:2:2 sub-sampled encoded video formats. The loss of resolution on encoded Bayer video cameras is due to low quality debayer algorithms necessary for real tiime high speed frame processing with limited available processor power.
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I think there might be something to your argument. Arri has provided UHD 4:4:4 on the Alexa Mini for some time and I have never heard anyone complain about it being a waste of space even though the sensor is only 2.8K.

If it’s technically possible and advantageous, I would always prefer a 4:4:4 debayered file for the same reason I would prefer the option to record a 12 bit RAW image. That extra headroom is likely to save a shot one day so I’m willing to pay for the extra drive space.
 
wschmid said:
Panasonic has to be blamed for that because the promised 5.7K raw. They never stated that it will be for the Macs only. And you did not purchase the EVA1 from Atomos - and Atomos promised only a support for the EVA1. In other words - your business partner are Panasonic and their dealers here who promissed something.

That is a case of business ethics, even if you do not like that as EVA1 fans. But that does not change the facts. And that after the LCD that becomes a mirror in sunshine and the great mechanical design of the handgrip.

If Resolve 15 will support ProRes RAW will be known tomorrow hopefully. If yes then the additional costs will only be another license for Resolve 15. if no the issue is even worser.
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No they don't have to be blamed. Panasonic delivered exactly what they promised to deliver. Uncompressed raw output. The EVA1 still does that. It is up to you to find a solution that can record that raw format. The Atomos is one single 3rd party product that worked with Apple for a raw solution that made sense for post production. If that doesn't work for you then go find another recording product. The EVA1 still outputs raw as promised. You need to go find a tool to handle that just like I needed to find a recorder to get 10bit out of a GH4 externally.
 
Thomas Smet said:
No they don't have to be blamed. Panasonic delivered exactly what they promised to deliver. Uncompressed raw output. The EVA1 still does that. It is up to you to find a solution that can record that raw format. The Atomos is one single 3rd party product that worked with Apple for a raw solution that made sense for post production. If that doesn't work for you then go find another recording product. The EVA1 still outputs raw as promised. You need to go find a tool to handle that just like I needed to find a recorder to get 10bit out of a GH4 externally.
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Completely agreed. Panasonic has said all along that they will deliver raw. They said they were working with third parties. Its no different to the way Sony / Canon or any other company does this. Company A delivers raw. Company B gives you a way to capture it. In this case company A has delivered raw. There's really not much else to that story.

Atomos has no way to deliver 5.7k raw uncompressed on any existing products. Most people were aware of that, myself included. It was my belief that the answer would come from CD. It was also my belief that with All I on the EVA1 there were probably few circumstances where I would bother with raw, opting instead to just shoot on the LT. That scenario has now changed entirely for me and probably the same for anyone owning one of the cameras ATOMOS will support prores raw recording for. Shooting 5.7k raw was not the reason I bought the EVA1 in the first place.

How good is prores raw? We can all guess, but no one really knows at this point.

I think it's just a matter of (short) time before prores raw is rolled out across NLS's. I think it's just a matter of time before we see CD weigh in.
 
@ Mr Asket, do not agree with you. And for sure it is not up anybody here to say that I should find another recorder. And it is also not up to me to find a solution - that has to be offered by the industry man. If you purchase a car, is it up to you to build a refinery to refine your own gasoline??
 
Panasonic does not make any raw recorders, and will not. Not even for the top of the line; they rely.on external third party raw recorders.

If you want to record raw from an EVA1 you're going to have to get an external third party recorder.

It is possible that the Atomos lineup will already record 4k and 2k raw into CinemaDNG formats; I will have to verify with Atomos. And if so, it is perhaps possible that they could add support for 5.7k CDNG when they add the 5.7k ProRes Raw support.
 
Even though Panasonic doesn't make any raw recorders, it would be nice to add ProRes raw recording to the VariCam LT, if it's possible. I would pay for such an upgrade.

I don't know what is limiting the frame rates when using the O7Q, but if it's the size of the DNG-files and not the output/input from the SDI connectors, maybe the Varicam LT and the O7Q could be made to record even higher framrates in both 4K and 2K?
 
Barry_Green said:
It is possible that the Atomos lineup will already record 4k and 2k raw into CinemaDNG formats; I will have to verify with Atomos. And if so, it is perhaps possible that they could add support for 5.7k CDNG when they add the 5.7k ProRes Raw support.
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Confirmed working. Shot for 30 mins on cinemaDNG test. All good.
 
Ok, so EVA1 supports RAW on Atomos via CinemaDNG in 2k/4k, and for 5.7k, currently only ProRes RAW. Correct?

And FWIW I'll be shocked in adobe / windows PC doesn't have prores RAW read-only support by fall.
 
Milan O. said:
Even though Panasonic doesn't make any raw recorders, it would be nice to add ProRes raw recording to the VariCam LT, if it's possible. I would pay for such an upgrade.
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I agree. And it would differentiate the Varicam LT from the EVA1 which is overshadowing the LT these days.
 
Not only that, if a camera like the new Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K can record 4K raw (although it's from a M4/3 sensor) internally, maybe there is enough processing power to do it in the Varicam LT too? If customers pay for the upgrade, which I think many would, I see no reason for Panasonic not to do it. The codec is good in the LT, but when shooting HFR in 2K for instance there's a big difference between shooting internally and the raw output to the O7Q. It would be nice to be able to skip the O7Q in those instances, or if it's possible to enhance the cameras slow motion capabilities even further in combination wih the O7Q (4K 100 fps or 2K 400 fps). Not that I personally use slow motion very often, but it's one of those things that people are impressed by and I think it would make it stand out from the competition a lot.
 
The Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4.6/Pro also record DNG Raw from full gate sensor. So Panasonic should be able,to give at least a 4K full gate Raw recording?
Cheers
 
I would very happy to sacrifice the live update on the LT Panasonic have done to the camera to have full sensor higher frame rates and internal prores raw. The live update does not benefit filmmakers the least. What is Panasonics plan with the camera?
 
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Milan O. said:
Not only that, if a camera like the new Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K can record 4K raw (although it's from a M4/3 sensor) internally, maybe there is enough processing power to do it in the Varicam LT too? If customers pay for the upgrade, which I think many would, I see no reason for Panasonic not to do it. The codec is good in the LT, but when shooting HFR in 2K for instance there's a big difference between shooting internally and the raw output to the O7Q. It would be nice to be able to skip the O7Q in those instances, or if it's possible to enhance the cameras slow motion capabilities even further in combination wih the O7Q (4K 100 fps or 2K 400 fps). Not that I personally use slow motion very often, but it's one of those things that people are impressed by and I think it would make it stand out from the competition a lot.
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I believe raw recording has more to do with the media and ability to write a ton of data to that media fast enough than it has to do with processing speed. Raw can use less processing speed because the processor is no longer required to debayer, apply picture profiles, scale and all the other image processing taking place. The fact that the EVA1 only takes SD cards is a serious limitation on the ability to handle raw internally. Thats why they support raw externally. Its a way to offload the data recording to another device and form of media. ProRes raw could possibly fit on some SD cards but that does take a lot of processing power which again the external recorders are taking care of.
 
I'm missing something here, as I own neither the Shogun Inferno or the EVA1 but it's my understanding that the EVA sends RAW out over 6G SDI and AFAIK the Shogun Inferno only has HDMI in...can someone please clarify?
 
Thomas Smet said:
I believe raw recording has more to do with the media and ability to write a ton of data to that media fast enough than it has to do with processing speed. Raw can use less processing speed because the processor is no longer required to debayer, apply picture profiles, scale and all the other image processing taking place. The fact that the EVA1 only takes SD cards is a serious limitation on the ability to handle raw internally. Thats why they support raw externally. Its a way to offload the data recording to another device and form of media. ProRes raw could possibly fit on some SD cards but that does take a lot of processing power which again the external recorders are taking care of.
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Yes, that's why I'm talking about the Varicam LT and not the EVA1. The AU-XP0256BG P2 cards can record 4K/120 fps in the VariCam 35, so perhaps they can record up to 4K/60 fps in ProRes raw? Implementing this in their high-end cameras would hardly hurt their sales, I'm pretty sure. It would probably increase their P2 card sales too. I'm not an engineer, maybe the whole thing is impossible to do, but if it isn't I think they really should do it.
 
Barry_Green said:
Panasonic does not make any raw recorders, and will not. Not even for the top of the line; they rely.on external third party raw recorders.

If you want to record raw from an EVA1 you're going to have to get an external third party recorder.

It is possible that the Atomos lineup will already record 4k and 2k raw into CinemaDNG formats; I will have to verify with Atomos. And if so, it is perhaps possible that they could add support for 5.7k CDNG when they add the 5.7k ProRes Raw support.
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Well, in the meantime that has become quite clear:
- they support CDNG for both 2K and 4K (up to 4K DCI 30p). But also to ProRes or DNxHR but also ProRes RAW
- 5.7 K Recording is delayed until May, but will work to ProRes RAW 5.7K 30p only
- at the moment the 2K and 4K Raw is cropped
-it seems to be not possible to select the 5.7K Mode in raw but to scale down in the camera to 4K DCI or UHD. Unlikely that the Shogun will be able to do so
- we have no Windows App Today that is able to decode ProRes RAW.

And that is the pitty: as long as a Windows user cannot record to something different the ProRes RAW in the 5.7K Mode, he is excluded from 5.7K recording at all! MAYBE some NLE producer will support PRR in the future, who knows? But the facts are as today that they are excluded. Appreciated really! :(
 
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