Arri's New Camera

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d shay said:
If the new sensor surpasses the noise performance of the older large photosite design, it will be interesting to see how Arri eventually incorporates the new tech into LF and the Alexa 65. Will they go with the smaller photosites or use larger versions for even better low light performance in the large format cameras.
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With higher resolution you would imagine more processing power in order to accommodate 6K LF and 8K 65. Which means it may take another generation of cameras rather than just a sensor replacement. I'd imagine seeing this in around three or four years, since the LF is less than a year old now.

It is actually interesting now that I think about the point you're making. The main point of the Super35 4K version is to reach 4K for 4K requirements and deliverables. But since the 65 and the LF already surpass 4K, and the high end isn't really clamoring for 8K, then those models going up in resolution may not be so beneficial if it is at the cost of negatively affecting it. So if the Super35 4K version can gain sensor improvements or image processing improvements, and those same improvements can be applied to the next generation of LF and 65, then it's possible that those models may remain the same resolution to gain those new benefits AND the benefits of larger photosites.

Then again, if this is years in the future, perhaps 8K will be more commonplace and wanted by then. I would really not be surprised to see a future where Netflix is up-charging for 8K, and that may not be more than a few years away.


CharlesPapert said:
Everyone does it differently. I do learn about new gear from colleagues and manufacturers, sure, but also one of the reasons I hang out around here is to learn about things from this angle. As I said though, I do find some of the discussions here drive so deep into the technical that I'm fairly sure they would go over the head of not only most DP's I know, probably even most of the DIT's also.




[Deakins] is! Very straightforward in approach on pretty much everything. The last movie I did with him was back around 2007, and we used to sit at lunch and discuss techniques from previous films like the bleach bypass process in Jarhead (often punctuated with "Andy, what did we do on that one?")! Having just worked with the RED One for the first time, I gave him a briefing on my experiences and even though this was a good four years before he engaged in digital acquisition, he was quite interested.



This is essentially my point. I have a number of colleagues who think of me as being more "techy" than them, yet I can't keep up with the deeper pixel-peeping type conversations here...but even without a DIT on set, I still find my way!
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Clearly you and this Deakins person you mention are just wannabe DPs if you don't know the technical side like the back of your hand.
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
Clearly you and this Deakins person you mention are just wannabe DPs if you don't know the technical side like the back of your hand.
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I know several DPs who are actually not all that technical at all. I've also observed that the most technical DPs that I DO know are generally not that good; from what I've seen, really technical ones like Steve Yedlin are a minority rather than a majority. Roger Deakins doesn't generally describe himself as technical, but why would that matter?

At Deakins' level he doesn't even need to know the menu systems on the cameras he works with; he has ACs and DITs who can take care of those details for him while he's addressing other things like lighting. A cinematographer doesn't need to know all that much about how a sensor works to learn how it responds to light; that's something that you can learn by testing it and seeing how it works.

I suspect that I know a lot more about how cameras and lenses work because of how many computer science, electrical engineering, and physics courses I took in college, and other than making it very easy for me to learn how to use cameras, it hasn't had much of an affect on my cinematography. You don't need to know much about the physics that determines why mercury vapor lights have a different color spectrum than standard tungsten lamps or be able to explain the skin effect with Gauss' law to know how to light a scene to get the effect you're looking for.

The way you phrased that sentence made it seem like you don't know who Roger Deakins or Charles Papert are... if that's the case you might want to find out. Their work very much speaks for itself.
 
I'm going to be pretty surprised if we see the new S35mm deliver a straight 4k from 4k pixels without any downsampling. That wouldn't seem to align very well with Arri's general "better pixels" mantra.

I'll also be surprised if we see an alternate sensor tech developed for the larger formats.

I think 6k S35mm (for 4k deliverables), and 8k LF (for 8k or 4k deliverables) seems more likely (which is pretty much what the Mavo Edge is doing). I also suspect all of the raw recording will also be recorded in-camera using Codex's new HDE High-Density Encoding. Which will keep raw file sizes very close to what they are currently.

That said, no one seems to be complaining all that heavily about using the current Alexas in 1:1 pixel-for-pixel resolutions. So maybe they won't think it matters, and we'll get 4k S35mm and 6k LF (like the Canon C500ii).
 
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Grug said:
I'm going to be pretty surprised if we see the new S35mm deliver a straight 4k from 4k pixels without any downsampling. That wouldn't seem to align very well with Arri's general "better pixels" mantra.

I'll also be surprised if we see an alternate sensor tech developed for the larger formats.

I think 6k S35mm (for 4k deliverables), and 8k LF (for 8k or 4k deliverables) seems more likely (essentially a very similar. I also suspect all of the raw recording will also be recorded in-camera using Codex's new HDE High-Density Encoding. Which will keep raw file sizes very close to what they are currently.

That said, no one seems to be complaining all that heavily about using the current Alexas in 1:1 pixel-for-pixel resolutions. So maybe they won't think it matters, and we'll get 4k S35mm and 6k LF (like the Canon C500ii).
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You're probably right, yet, at the same time, resolutions over 2K are not as crucial to have super sample. If viewers can't distinguish 2K from 4K, then there is less of a reason to be particular about the down sample for 4K. That is just my opinion.
 
Tamerlin said:
I know several DPs who are actually not all that technical at all. I've also observed that the most technical DPs that I DO know are generally not that good; from what I've seen, really technical ones like Steve Yedlin are a minority rather than a majority. Roger Deakins doesn't generally describe himself as technical, but why would that matter?

At Deakins' level he doesn't even need to know the menu systems on the cameras he works with; he has ACs and DITs who can take care of those details for him while he's addressing other things like lighting. A cinematographer doesn't need to know all that much about how a sensor works to learn how it responds to light; that's something that you can learn by testing it and seeing how it works.

I suspect that I know a lot more about how cameras and lenses work because of how many computer science, electrical engineering, and physics courses I took in college, and other than making it very easy for me to learn how to use cameras, it hasn't had much of an affect on my cinematography. You don't need to know much about the physics that determines why mercury vapor lights have a different color spectrum than standard tungsten lamps or be able to explain the skin effect with Gauss' law to know how to light a scene to get the effect you're looking for.

The way you phrased that sentence made it seem like you don't know who Roger Deakins or Charles Papert are... if that's the case you might want to find out. Their work very much speaks for itself.
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Look, bro, pretty sure I know what I'm talking about here. For some credentials here is an award winning movie I shot 12 years ago. Movies don't win awards if they're not great. You can see my cameo in it at the 3:18 mark in part 2 so you know it's definitely me who made that.




Ever since then I have not yet made another movie because I've been busy raising funds for my next big short film, "Cancer Sucks," which is a heartfelt story about a dad who has cancer, overcomes it, gets it AGAIN, and then dies. This movie is going to be big, and I know everyone says that about their movies, but in this case it's actually true. And how do I know? Because I know the technical side like the back of my hand, unlike these PapPerts and Deakins schmucks who I doubt have made anything like the part one and part two of the movie above. I know what depth of field is, what aperture and T-stops are, and why a white balance card is necessary. And unlike many other DPs, I got to try out a frigging Arri Amira once (you can see I'm telling the truth because of my avatar photo) so you know I know what I'm talking about because DPs who don't know what they're talking about don't ever get to touch Arri Amiras.
 
Grug said:
I'm going to be pretty surprised if we see the new S35mm deliver a straight 4k from 4k pixels without any downsampling. That wouldn't seem to align very well with Arri's general "better pixels" mantra.

I'll also be surprised if we see an alternate sensor tech developed for the larger formats.

I think 6k S35mm (for 4k deliverables), and 8k LF (for 8k or 4k deliverables) seems more likely (which is pretty much what the Mavo Edge is doing). I also suspect all of the raw recording will also be recorded in-camera using Codex's new HDE High-Density Encoding. Which will keep raw file sizes very close to what they are currently.

That said, no one seems to be complaining all that heavily about using the current Alexas in 1:1 pixel-for-pixel resolutions. So maybe they won't think it matters, and we'll get 4k S35mm and 6k LF (like the Canon C500ii).
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It is a bit of a conundrum for them, as the LF models are selling so well - LF's have two essential elements, they're 4K and the ARRI - but the catch is short-term vs. long term. The ALEV sensor hit a milestone. It's 10 years old and there's been a lot of technological advancement since then. The ISO performance must be better, the resolution must inch up, etc. With that trend, the new tech will be introduced on their higher end models. Sony Venice sensor is 24.6 MPX. Surely, ARRI can do 26.4 to deliver 4K RGB for their lower tier LF models and, at least, 33 for the medium format sensor.

This sets up a three tier ARRI lineup. First s35 Mini, then Alexa LF/Mini LF and finishing with the 6K/8K units. The s35 4K Mini then would just have 8.8 MPX, as to not to overshadow the current 4.5K LF models on specs while still having longevity as an entry level ARRI product.

And it would sort of let them keep the "better pixels" strategy.

Eric Coughlin said:
If you put a Ford in a spaceship it is then much faster than a Bugatti.
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Ground control to Major Eric.
 
Tamerlin said:
I know several DPs who are actually not all that technical at all. I've also observed that the most technical DPs that I DO know are generally not that good; from what I've seen, really technical ones like Steve Yedlin are a minority rather than a majority. Roger Deakins doesn't generally describe himself as technical, but why would that matter?

At Deakins' level he doesn't even need to know the menu systems on the cameras he works with; he has ACs and DITs who can take care of those details for him while he's addressing other things like lighting. A cinematographer doesn't need to know all that much about how a sensor works to learn how it responds to light; that's something that you can learn by testing it and seeing how it works.

I suspect that I know a lot more about how cameras and lenses work because of how many computer science, electrical engineering, and physics courses I took in college, and other than making it very easy for me to learn how to use cameras, it hasn't had much of an affect on my cinematography. You don't need to know much about the physics that determines why mercury vapor lights have a different color spectrum than standard tungsten lamps or be able to explain the skin effect with Gauss' law to know how to light a scene to get the effect you're looking for.

The way you phrased that sentence made it seem like you don't know who Roger Deakins or Charles Papert are... if that's the case you might want to find out. Their work very much speaks for itself.
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Eric is pulling your leg - he knows who those DPs are.

RE: technical vs non-technical DPs - I follow some blogs (I won't name names) by reviewers and techies who know more about digital cameras than I ever will. But then sometimes they show their work and I'm like, "Holy crap, that's bad." All the time and energy they spend on learning technology is not spent practicing lighting, composition and camera movement. Obviously, you need SOME technical knowledge in order to shoot. But movies are about feelings.
 
DLD said:
It is a bit of a conundrum for them, as the LF models are selling so well - LF's have two essential elements, they're 4K and the ARRI - but the catch is short-term vs. long term. The ALEV sensor hit a milestone. It's 10 years old and there's been a lot of technological advancement since then. The ISO performance must be better, the resolution must inch up, etc. With that trend, the new tech will be introduced on their higher end models. Sony Venice sensor is 24.6 MPX. Surely, ARRI can do 26.4 to deliver 4K RGB for their lower tier LF models and, at least, 33 for the medium format sensor.

This sets up a three tier ARRI lineup. First s35 Mini, then Alexa LF/Mini LF and finishing with the 6K/8K units. The s35 4K Mini then would just have 8.8 MPX, as to not to overshadow the current 4.5K LF models on specs while still having longevity as an entry level ARRI product.

And it would sort of let them keep the "better pixels" strategy.
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I think they've already made their concession to the LF models, by pushing back the release of this new S35mm model to next year (it was supposed to arrive in 2020).

I have no doubt it'll also be at least another year after that before we'll see an LF version of the new sensor. So the current LF cameras will have a good couple of years (at least) to do their thing without any direct internal competition.

I'm just hoping Arri have been taking my feature requests seriously, and the next camera comes with 1-8 stops of internal ND, and a super fast boot time (a la Sony Venice). As those are the features of the future. And any camera lacking them, is annoying.
 
You know, I kind of like PapPert. At least it solves the pronunciation issue. Every now and then someone will try to call me C-Pap and I'm like uh yeah no.
 
Grug said:
I think they've already made their concession to the LF models, by pushing back the release of this new S35mm model to next year (it was supposed to arrive in 2020).

I have no doubt it'll also be at least another year after that before we'll see an LF version of the new sensor. So the current LF cameras will have a good couple of years (at least) to do their thing without any direct internal competition...
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They can't produce LF's fast enough. One thing I noticed about the HBO streaming search is that they're not promising a 4K stream as of now. So they can take every Alexa on the market and it'll be good enough.

As to the ND filters --- hmmm.

CharlesPapert said:
You know, I kind of like PapPert. At least it solves the pronunciation issue. Every now and then someone will try to call me C-Pap and I'm like uh yeah no.
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Roger Deakins doesn't like being called C-Pap either. What is it with you cinematographers?
 
DLD said:
One thing I noticed about the HBO streaming search is that they're not promising a 4K stream as of now.
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Assuming it was for the same reason, YouTube did something similar and defaulted the world's initial playback to a lower resolution (720p) during these times.

Just an unprecedented amount of traffic.
 
DLD said:
Seeing a lot of the single head talking clips at 1080 now.
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We going back to the days when DP’s tell directors that ask for a wide shot one take scene “you won’t be able to see the character’s faces, this is streaming”
 
NorBro said:
Assuming it was for the same reason, YouTube did something similar and defaulted the world's initial playback to a lower resolution (720p) during these times.

Just an unprecedented amount of traffic.
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If only Arri offered a 720p mode to meet YouTube's initial playback resolution without the need to downscale in post they'd have a real winner of a camera. But I know, I know, Arri doesn't play the resolution game so we're stuck with 2K, 3.2K, 4K, 4.5K, and 6K.

I recall the first wedding I filmed I was worried that my computer would not handle 1080, so I set the HVX200 and Canon XH-A1 I had access to to 480, but I was also borrowing an HMC40 which I had assumed would do 480p as well, but upon getting my hands on it at the wedding, I discovered 720p was the lowest resolution it could do. Needless to say, it required a lot of extra time and effort in post (borrowing someone else's computer) to convert all that footage to 480p so I could edit it on my computer.
 
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James0b57 said:
We going back to the days when DP’s tell directors that ask for a wide shot one take scene “you won’t be able to see the character’s faces, this is streaming”
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Well, that's how it's often made in Europe. One shot, one take, scratch audio.
 
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