Arri's New Camera

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Since every other post lately references Arri this, Arri that, I figured, why not talk about the cameras that Arri produces?!?!

Next year, Arri intends to release a new camera.

Many camera companies have begun to close in on the old bench mark the Alexa, but few prioritize film making sensibilities and aesthetics quite as well. AS much as Canon has tried to copy Arri, they can't leave behind they video broadcast roots.

As TV's, Streamers and viewers all move towards higher resolution content options, we have more than just color science and dynamic range to think about. Are you guys ready for the fomo? Are you ready for your almost Alexa to be not a 4K Alexa?

Whelp, maybe we'll realize soon how not so great the original Alexa was after all. Let the fomo begin.
 
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And yes, the new Arri camera is unofficially/officially slated for next year.
 
Giriki said:
Only one thing is 100% certain:

The look of Arri's new camera will become "the look". Blackmagic will tailor the color science of their new cameras to match it while Sony, Red, Canon, Panasonic, Kinefinity, Z Cam, Fujifilm, some Russian Raspberry Pi-based camera and all the current Super 35 Alexas will get criticized for looking slightly different. Could look like a toddler's vomit after drinking watercolor, doesn't matter.
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Yeah if all the recent camera releases are still not better than the decade old AlevIII, will be interesting to see what the AlevIV delivers. Will Arri's mantra of better pixels still hold true? Or will the 4K sensor really out perform the 2K one?
 
I'm most curious about if they'll improve their high ISO capabilities like most of the competition has. Arri is limited to 3200 ISO. The LF and 65 with the finer/smaller noise are cleaner, but I believe still limited to 3200, which means if you want to go above 3200 ISO, you're out of luck.

Imagine a 4K Super35 Arri camera that could easily swing clean 12,800 ISO. That'd be killer. LF would still have some advantages, but just like the C300 Mark II has some advantages over the C500 Mark II and vice versa, I suspect similar could happen with the 4K Super35 Arri.

Auto-focus would be cool, but I feel unlikely, and not that necessary for most of the projects Arri is aimed at. Varicam and Venice don't have autofocus so I'm not seeing it mainstream yet at the high end.

New color science would be tricky, because then they'd have a camera that doesn't match their older models, and you regularly see using multiple models (65, XT, Mini) on big budget shoots, so they'd really need to get that sensor in all their body styles quickly if they were changing color science.

I wonder if the XT will ever get a shrunken version, as I still see big budget productions using them for some of their advantages, but if they have the technology, perhaps they could shrink it down some.

I'd also imagine higher frame rates in the Super35 4K version, just like the C300 Mark III.


At the most conservative end, same colors, probably same frame rate options as original Mini, same ISO, 4K Super35, everything else the same as LF (viewfinder, media, etc.).
 
My hunch is that, whenever ARRI 8K comes out, it will be the high end of the high end, something above the LF as the replacement for Alexa65. On the working professional level, 4.5K of the LF series is more than sufficient for the majority of uses. The worst case scenario is an upscale/upres to 6K or so. Obviously, some streamers will soon be advertising "Shot in 8K" but this will be subject to the market acceptance. Cable companies still broadcast 720 @60P, the OTA is still being tested for 4K and may broadcast in some US cities by the end of the year, the 4K Blu-Ray player sales are tepid and the streamers quality varies from one ISP to the next. In other words, 4K may last a really long time as a plateau, no matter how much the manufacturers may want to promote 8K as a next step forward.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/atsc-3-0-ota-broadcast-standard-4k-dolby-atmos/ - on the ATSC 3.0, aka 4K OTA
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I'm most curious about if they'll improve their high ISO capabilities like most of the competition has. Arri is limited to 3200 ISO. The LF and 65 with the finer/smaller noise are cleaner, but I believe still limited to 3200, which means if you want to go above 3200 ISO, you're out of luck.
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True. That is a big reason I went with Gemini. Frame rates, high iso, and resolution, with only a marginal hit on DR and colour. Venice is right there too.

Imagine a 4K Super35 Arri camera that could easily swing clean 12,800 ISO. That'd be killer.
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Absolutely! I have trouble seeing in light that requires iso12,800 and a fast lens, so, I am ok as long as 6400 is good, and 12,800 is usable, no matter what the camera. Canon 1DC was the first iso6400 camera I used, and that was the first time I never needed higher iso except for specialized use. Plus, it starts looking like night for day after a while. I'm sure it would look cool, but goes into the surreal.
 
My suspicion is that we’ll see a 6k 4:3 S35mm in a Mini LF-esque body (fingers-crossed with a built-in battery plate and 1-8 stop internal NDs like the Venice).

Followed later by a full-frame 8k big sister in the same body (a la C500ii/C300iii).

I’m expecting something kinda similar to the Mavo Edge in a lot of ways - that thing is (theoretically at least) the closest anyone’s Come to a “perfect” camera design yet (i.e. something where there’s practically nothing else to ask for or complain about feature-wise).
 
Grug said:
My suspicion is that we’ll see a 6k 4:3 S35mm in a Mini LF-esque body (fingers-crossed with a built-in battery plate and 1-8 stop internal NDs like the Venice).
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As long as there's a good 4K option in that 6K camera then fine. Otherwise, ugh, that's twice the data rate of 4K. The data rates particularly shooting RAW on the Alexa 65's 6.5K are huge. The LF at 4.5K is a nice resolution in that it's just a bit more than 4K so if shooting for 4K frame size you can use the extra .5K of space for re-framing. That, and with the future Super35 firmware you can go back to shooting 3.2K when desired.

Data rates are still a concern even on relatively big budget shoots, hence the popularity of ProRes, so I'm not so sure that 6K S35 is what many in this space would want. Even moreso if the camera like all other Arris does not offer a compressed RAW codec which is one way that Red and Canon away with higher resolution without going crazy on data rates.

Why would you want a built-in (non-removable?) battery plate? Being able to switch from V-mount to Anton Bauer mount is a positive feature and adapters add size and weight.
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
As long as there's a good 4K option in that 6K camera then fine. Otherwise, ugh, that's twice the data rate of 4K. The data rates particularly shooting RAW on the Alexa 65's 6.5K are huge. The LF at 4.5K is a nice resolution in that it's just a bit more than 4K so if shooting for 4K frame size you can use the extra .5K of space for re-framing. That, and with the future Super35 firmware you can go back to shooting 3.2K when desired.

Data rates are still a concern even on relatively big budget shoots, hence the popularity of ProRes, so I'm not so sure that 6K S35 is what many in this space would want. Even moreso if the camera like all other Arris does not offer a compressed RAW codec which is one way that Red and Canon away with higher resolution without going crazy on data rates.

Why would you want a built-in (non-removable?) battery plate? Being able to switch from V-mount to Anton Bauer mount is a positive feature and adapters add size and weight.
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6k fullframe, 4k S35mm is certainly a strong possibility (it meets the Netflix 4k requirements), but then they'd lose the benefits of oversampling (which have served the 3k for 2k finish Alexa variants so well).

Arri have compression for Arriraw these days. It's Codex's High-Density Encoding (HDE) which shrinks Arriraw files by 40% with zero mathematical loss to image quality. Unfortunately it's currently a purely external measure, so you shoot uncompressed Arriraw, then have to re-encode it when you store/ingest it.

The next gen of their cameras will no doubt incorporate HDE into the actual recording, giving them significant savings in media storage.

As for integrated battery plates, they've always been interchangeable on Alexa. You can detach a v-mount and swap it for a gold-mount easily enough. And having it attached to the camera body saves a HUGE amount of weight compared to all the rigging gack required to attach a whole separate battery plate on to a camera body that doesn't have one (not to mention introducing power cables as an additional point of failure on the camera).
 
Arri should be bust :)

I make most of my predictions from my experience of shooting stills on a Sinar. My Sinar was a win - with 22mp in 2004 or suchlike I was able to produce digital images for glossy mags and billboards.
I was able to stop buying film nd close my darkroom, and deliver fast. A total win.

22mp? Yep phones do that now.

My sinar was costly and unstable.. but the only 'untethered' camera on the planet that did archive worthy work (nikon D1 was 1.4mp and not archive worthy) I could sell digital as prints or to glossy mags.

Im sure Ive got the dates all wrong but there we go.

But my sinar died with the 5d2 and then phones. Yep Sinar launched a 75mp back I guess.. but no one cared. Sinar died, Bronica Died, Mamiya got bought, Hasselblad got bought... by DJI.

No on really cares above 22mp (stills) apart from some pixel peepers.

Yep the big digibacks are still there for a couple of amateur pixel freaks and guys who genuinely work for Rolex, Rolls Royce and Chanel but really they are nothing in the market.

Luckily for Arri, Sony and Canon and Nikon messed up making movie cameras giving Arri a lifeline.

But with the latest Canons is that over?

I see they need to go super high end or they will be in trouble. Not being a japanese conglomerate I think they are still at risk because they cant acess AI or whatever. Sinar got clobbered when Canon put thier mind to a 22mp camera, Arri has to be careful not to be clobbered now canon make a 4k raw motion picture camera with AF.
 
That may be true but supposedly Arri still has a 1-stop DR advantage. Resolution is one thing, but until every camera offers more DR than ever needed, I think people will keep paying premium prices for premium cameras. Especially when the rest of the production costs dwarf the cost of camera rental.
 
Im not sure the DR matters if it is close, but there is an untold Arri story in that they have good penetration of the global rental houses, you can get another one or eight if you drop yours in the soup pretty quickly even if you are in Brazil, Iceland or South Africa.
ANd downtime = money.
 
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Grug said:
The next gen of their cameras will no doubt incorporate HDE into the actual recording, giving them significant savings in media storage.
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I doubt it mate.

There’s this other company that OWN compressed raw IN-CAMERA.

HDE is part of the offloading process now, which make sense because we all have to do that anyway. And no-one wants 4k+ uncompressed.

JB
 
morgan_moore said:
Im not sure the DR matters if it is close, but there is an untold Arri story in that they have good penetration of the global rental houses, you can get another one or eight if you drop yours in the soup pretty quickly even if you are in Brazil, Iceland or South Africa.
ANd downtime = money.
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Maybe not if it's close... IMO film still beats Alexa for retaining color depth in bright blue skies and sunsets etc. Every stop counts.

Yes re:Production houses but that could evolve based on customer demand. But certainly it pays to use the same camera everyone else does in that way. Kind of like the FS7
 
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ahalpert said:
Maybe not if it's close... IMO film still beats Alexa for retaining color depth in bright blue skies and sunsets etc. Every stop counts.

Yes re:Production houses but that could evolve based on customer demand. But certainly it pays to use the same camera everyone else does in that way. Kind of like the FS7
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It’s also an eco system of accessories. And it’s not just the rental houses. Individual focus pullers with the WCU4.

Operators accessories like the handgrips.

The way camera functions are built into the SRH3.

It’s like switching from iOS to android. Once you’re invested in that eco system it’s going to have to be for a significant reason to not keep investing because you don’t then instantly diminish the value of your accessories and infrastructure.

I think one of the big reasons for the longevity of this sensor is the giant pixel pitch. It’s also one of the reasons they’ve not been able to spin out a 4k S35 sensor.

Their strength is also what’s holding them back :-)

Even to produce the same results in a sensor with small enough pixels to make it 4k S-35 would still be a pretty big achievement.

JB
 
ahalpert said:
Maybe not if it's close... IMO film still beats Alexa for retaining color depth in bright blue skies and sunsets etc. Every stop counts.

Yes re:Production houses but that could evolve based on customer demand. But certainly it pays to use the same camera everyone else does in that way. Kind of like the FS7
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My stills journey was.. film->sinar digital -> DSLR

There certainly is a legit argument that film is the 'best' aquisition format followed by the 16bit files from the hasselblad - so I just got worse over the years.

But being in business, film would not stand todays economic pressures of few takes, ambitous shots and fast delivery time.

Im thinking about what arri need to deliver.

The first thing is probably AF point remote focus so an A/C either focusses (manually) or stabs the point he/she wants sharp without upsetting the camera while also driving variables like the AF speed.
 
The high end TV and features production will always pull for the "best in class". And the latest Alexa iteration - image quality, workflow, reliability - fits all the requirements. Then, as JB said, you add the familiarity and the ecosystem and there's hardly any reason to seek alternatives.

Then there's a question of competition. Red owes the Netflix a big one in keeping it afloat due to the "must be in 4K" mandate but LF's have made that Red advantage moot and the Mini's have moved into the handheld territory that was also previously occupied by Red. Venice picked up some of that business too. And, as was the case with the Alexa Classic turning into XT, SXT and so on, there's still a long life left in LF's and its further development.

PS. To paraphrase the old Hot Chocolate hit, "Everyone's a streamer, baby, that's for sure" and all the majors will be looking at the penetration of 8K TV sets. They'll make some 8K videos - probably travel and so on - and judge interest. Upgrading to the 8K infrastructure will be costly and hardly worth the investment at the moment. And that will keep 4K as the dominant res for a long time.
 
DLD said:
The high end TV and features production will always pull for the "best in class". .
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My experience of stills was that I used the high price, low volume exotic Hasselblad H1/Sinar digiback when it was best in class, but there came a time where the small Swiss and Swedish companies could no longer compete with the behomoths from The East who Im sure probabpy have more people in AF department than those entire companies put together trying to deliver a whole camera eco system.
 
John Brawley said:
I think one of the big reasons for the longevity of this sensor is the giant pixel pitch. It’s also one of the reasons they’ve not been able to spin out a 4k S35 sensor.
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Looking at the development of stills cams, the belters are the low res large sensor cams, it has not really changed since my nikon D3. It seems Arri get that simple thing of needing a large bucket to catch a lot of rain :)
 
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